Berin

So I've read heaps of theorycrafting on how much stamina, parry, dodge, etc a warrior should have (for MT'ing of course), and there always seems to be conflicting opinions based on who you ask. I'm currently stacking more HP/armor/block value in the interest of steadying incoming boss DPS for the sake of healers, but within my available inventory I have a lot of alternate gear that I can trade for a significant increase in mitigation while losing marginal HP. This leaves me wondering at what point additional stamina becomes less useful in favour of increased dodge/parry/hit. As an example:

In my current tanking config I have (unbuffed):
14954 HP
16010 Armor
17.21% Dodge
16.91% Parry
25.83% Block
532 Block Value

If I push towards the other end of the spectrum focusing more on dodge/parry (maxxing points on my TankPoints mod) I'm looking at:
14364 HP (-590 HP)
15914 Armor
23.78% Dodge (+6.57%)
17.35% Parry (+0.44%)
24.11% Block (-1.72%)
394 Block Value (-138 Block Value)

I guess what I would like to see discussion on is what are the sweet spots for each stat (Within the context of TBC end-game tanking), and at what point can you consider more of one stat to be detrimental.

 

Garithras

I won't pretend to be a tank with tons of end-game experience, but it seems to me that the 'sweet spots', as it were, should be collected in two different sets -- so you look to be going the right direction already. Avoidance saves healer mana. Hit Points saves raid wipes. Mitigation assists with both.

In any non-endurance encounter that is reasonably difficult for your raid, Hit Points and mitigation should be your emphasis. A tank dying usually spells a wipe, so staying alive should always be your first priority when selecting gear. Collect the avoidance gear second for those long encounters where healers run out of mana. More Hit Points may be excessive for your current encounters, but there will always be harder-hitting bosses in the future. And your healers will thank you for being easier to heal.

 

Teez

My gear setups have a HUGE scale - ranging from 13.5k hp in full avoidance gear, to 15.8k hp in full stam gear (dual stam trinkets etc.), but at the same time my dodge% fluctuates between 27% and 17%. The problem with either of those is pretty obvious - in the one setup I'm eating every hit, but it's a nice and constant stream of damage (given no parry streaks.) In the other, I find myself running out of rage and dropping to scarily low hp levels very often. Neither are viable in my opinion. Picking your ideal tanking setup is very much a "feel" thing, and it takes your healers into account, too.

Some guilds/raids have healers that are extremely good at pre-emptive heals/heal cancelling (or just particularily enjoy that style) - others are more about the steady healing & longevity. Try and play into their game, as much as the encounter allows. Another aspect is your threat generation - I've been enjoying shield block value quite a bit and am trying to gear for it more, as it directly decreases my damage taken in a very predictable fashion, and helps my threat generation. Dodge/parry are nothing you can rely on due to their random nature, even if you're stacking those stats; granted, over a long fight you'll normally get close to what you'd expect for dodge/parry rates in the end, but that won't save you from a bad string of unavoided hits, or an endless streak of avoidance, leaving you rage starved.

What this means at the end of the day is that in all likelihood, you probably want to go with somewhat of a balanced setup. Coincidentally, my favorite 'mixed' set has the highest Block Value while maintaining epic quality items in almost all slots (none of those block value rings from 5man content etc.) - and has the highest AC. 16801AC, w/ ~21% dodge and 14.7k hp, and somewhere around 550 BV seems to work out quite well. The damage intake is steady and mostly predictable for my healers, and my AC/BV mitigate a tremendous amount of each hit that does land.

Concerning sweet spots, right now I don't think I could comfortably drop below 14.5k hp - it's just a bit of a benchmark number for me for some reason. 16.5k AC with my current gear has become a bare minimum (which allows me to swap out a ring, basically), and for my avoidance I try to maintain a bare minimum of 20% unbuffed, and go as far as 24% unbuffed comfortably. Past there I feel like it's hurting my rage generation a bit too much, while provoking extremely random spikes in damage.

Now, In your particular gear suggestion for example, I'd probably swap 1-2 pieces at the expense of 1-2% dodge, but (hopefully) gaining back a bit of lost BV and Stamina.

Take this with a grain of salt in any case, I've fallen in love with BV once again, and am hoping I can score a 2nd piece of T5 in the near future - I have a feeling that's one of those breaking points in gear progression that'll allow you to drop avoidance elsewhere since you're virtually increasing your stamina, and your healers mana pool, by reducing damage intake in a very predictable, reliable, and steady manner. Gearing for ~800BV on the first block is my current "goal," to see how that pans out in longer encounters, compared to maybe slightly higher avoidance. (The benefits of BV vs. fast and not-so-hard hitting mobs/bosses is obvious, but I'm trying to get the the point where it makes a more noticeable difference even on those harder hitting ones.)

Edit: I forgot to add, my current stats are pre-mongoose procs (which just so happens to be up most of the time); I'd strongly advise for this enchant as it effectively does allow you to drop avoidance elsewhere considering its' insane uptime.

 

Punscho

It's all up to the fight.

 

◊ Turik

I can't imagine why you wouldn't use the second set over the first.

 

archz0r

It seems to me as if you're loosing way too little HP for the amounts of dodge you're getting.

 

Tasan

I would agree with Turik.

I tend to favour avoidance over stamina once I reach a stamina amount I have in mind.

And in my eyes/experience, 14.4k hp unbuffed is a nice cussion over which I would go all out on avoidance and +shield block value.
24 dodge and 17 parry you have a nice bit of avoidance in there, and in my eyes you are sacrifising few things.
And close to 400 BV is not bad at all mate.

As we have posted alot of times here, there are guys that prefer the HP cushion, over the avoidance and the "oh shit" spike.
It will eventualy come down to personal preference and to a lesser extent on the battle, but with T5/6 and 20k+ ( easily ) buffed tanks, avoidance looks important for me.

 

Zurgat

I'd say the same, however some people still believe you need 25% block chance, combined with Shield Block to push your Block to 100%, and thus push off any Crushing Blows off the chart.

I'd love some clarity on this though, according to some all you need is a combined total of 25% parry, dodge and block. (10,10,5 would work) This seems odd however.

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• Chicken

You need a combined total, otherwise no Prot Paladins would be able to push off crushing blows. I can push off Crushing Blows and I certainly don't have the 65% base block that'd require if I needed 100% block for that.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Ren

From the perspective of a raiding tank: Become uncrittable and then stack HP--and to a lesser extent armor. Swap on extra +block value for threat-sensitive scenarios. The only time extra avoidance is good to have is when you're trying to avoid a physical debuff or when threat is a non-issue.

When I rate items, I mentally remove all the parry/dodge/defense rating and see what's left.

 

Vandredi

http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table Is probably the best info on the hit tables.

In regards to the main thread topic, I've found that so far (everything short of SSC) the boss fights and trash fights have varied quite a bit in optimal gearing. There are usually some comments on walk-throughs etc. about what gear tanks should be wearing, but it might be usefyl to compile some thoughts somewhere on what the optimal gearing for various encounters/Boss Fights are...

 

Rugrud

Some small derail here:
I read oftent that one good way to look at defense skill is to go to 490 and then turn to something else, be it avoidance or HP/mitigation.

That kind of disturb me regarding avoidance...

I can't find the formula for item budgets, but basing on the gem for instance:
One "rare"gem can give you 8 dodge rating or 8 defense rating.
8 dodge rating = 8/18.9= 0.42% avoidance
8def rating= 8/2.43=3.33 def skill= 0.13% miss+0.13% dodge +0.13% parry= 0.40% total avoidance + 0.13% block rating...

So if we totally ignore, the dodge one is a bit better, by 0.02% in avoidance.

My point is that even past the 490 mark, defense don't seem that much overbudgeted...

What am i missing? Why should you stop at 490 def if you choose to improve avoidance (IF you choose so, my point isn't avoidance VS. HP).

Thanks in advance

 

◊ Xerophyte

You're not missing anything. If you want avoidance then, yes, dodge rating and defense rating are roughly equivalent even after you're crit immune. You do benefit roughly as much from defense rating as you do dodge rating.

The usual "everyone should stop def at 490" statements either stem from cluelessness about the mechanics involved or as a result of a strong preference for improving damage reduction and health pool over avoidance; def is still a relevant stat for tanking over 490.

 

Kier

Not to be too cliche but which set of gear works best for you really depends a lot on you (and your healers). If your healers are good at cancelling spells and can live with the lower max health then you will get better longevity from higher avoidance. If you seem to be dying to bad luck strings then you can do yourself and your raid a favor by increasing your health and just soaking damage.

From the specific setups you posted I think it's pretty easy to say the second set (avoidance) is better. You hardly lose any health and the gain in avoidance is substantial.

(Sorry to bring the thread back on track! )

 

• Kelce

It seems that you've answered your own question Rugrud, dodge nets better avoidance than defense per point. On topic; I tend to value armor as much as hitpoints, since armor assists with improving healing mana efficiency. However, since most fights have magical damage components, hitpoints provide a nice buffer against it. In short; mostly what Ren said.

 

stampy

While HP tends to be king, the vast avoidance improvement for a somewhat small decrease in health (from an already more than adequate level) is totally worth moving to the second set.

However, the first set may feel much nicer for easy content. Not only is 138 block value worth probably 150-180 threat per shield slam, but against a weak mobs its also great mitigation.

Against 1k hits, not using shield block, 25% block makes an extra 138 block value similar to 3.5% dodge. Against a mob that hits for 2k, its still 1.75%. The great part about the block mitigation instead of dodge mitigation is that it also still rewards you with some rage.

 

rayijin

For pure soak (stamina + armor + block value, no hits avoided, and usually not all of them blocked), I use these estimates (based on wowwiki armor formula and a spreadsheet I put together some time ago):

211 armor = 1% more hp
1 stamina = 19 armor (less if it's multiplied by inspiration, I don't because I'm worried about worst case - ie, inspiration/ancestral fort falls off)
1 stamina = ~12.22 hp for a Tauren tank, raid buffed.
1 block value = 1.3 blocked * 3 hits to death = 3.9hp

For block value, you multiply by the number of hits it takes the mob to kill you. For a boss hitting for a typical 4-5k, I usually say 3 - worst case on mag for instance is shield block->simultaneous hit/cleave -> mob parry -> crushing -> block the next hit. Likewise for Tidewalker who can hit, quake (eats a shield block) and continue hitting you.

Don't forget the 30% bonus from the talent.

If given a choice, armor and block value are better investments than more stamina, as they reduce your total damage taken, while stamina merely gives your healers more time to react - although stacking stamina is definitely what you should do first, as it's the easiest way to up your burst damage survivability (which is paramount).