Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Class Mechanics

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06/11/07, 2:29 AM   #1
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
Hamlet's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Mage Trinket Advice, part 2

Has anyone run the numbers on Sextant of Unstable Currents vs. Serpent-Coil Braid vs. Darkmoon Card: Crusade (vs. Icon of the Silver Crescent and/or The Lightning Capacitor, if any of those are still relevant)? A bunch of new trinkets just became more widely available and I don't have any hard numbers yet.

Offhand, Braid seems to outdo previous timered trinkets. 225 for 15/120 seconds is a stronger use than the 153 for 15/90 from Icon, and the passive is about the same. Seems like a minor upgrade overall, but does anyone have experience with the inconvenience of having your trinket activiation tied to your managem?

What's the procrate of Sextant, and how does it line up?

Crusade is slightly better average DPS than any timered trinket do far, but has the disadvantages of the ramp-up and the fact that it's not activated.

Anyone have a definite preference of two?


United States Offline
Old 06/11/07, 7:47 AM   #2
Asherett
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
I've just been calculating the value of all highlevel mage trinkets for use in my own item spreadsheet, based on the proc rates etc given on wowhead. (And also assuming the generally accepted 10/48/3 spec of course)

I'll dig up some hard numbers for you when I get home from work, but right now I recall well that The Lightning Capacitor is far and away the best possible trinket. With about 35% practical fireball critrate (which is easy enough in mid-Karazhan) it's equal to about +100 dmg. Serpent-Coil Braid looks very attractive (fun?) but falls abit short in the end (the mana bonus works out to approx 11 mana/5 IIRC). Sextant is basically an improved Shiffar's (still among the very best) since it shares the exact same procrate/internal CD (20% and 45s). As for the Crusade card, well, it approaches +80 dmg on longer fights and is very weak in a "trash-clearing" situation.

I seem to recall the six best in my calcs were TLC then (not in correct order!) Sextant, Quagmirran's, Shiffar, Icon and Braid. As I said, I'll update

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 7:49 AM   #3
ebbv
King Hippo
 
ebbv's Avatar
 
Troll Mage
 
Destromath
Icon is 155 for 20/120. Which is ~+26 passive. The Serpent-Coil Braid is still better, though at ~+28.

Each of these comes pretty close to the +80 from Crusade. I've found the +80 is fairly easy to maintain even during fights where your casting is forcibly interrupted such as Magtheridon, using ice Lance or Fireblast you can keep the buff from falling off while you are otherwise unable to cast.

That said, it still does take some effort in many encounters, and of course I think it's just flat out bad on Trash where I've tried it but it often does not spend much time fully stacked.

If you take a 33% crit rate, it takes about 27 seconds for Lightning Capicitor to go off for Fireball and about 13.5 seconds for Scorch spam. Clearly the DPS is doubled for Scorch spam, and that's without counting the +4% from Incinerate into it going off more often. If you take the average bolt coming out of the Capacitor (unfairly not counting crits) at 750, you get ~28 DPS for Fireball spam, or 56 for Scorch.

If you count Icon as a total passive of +69, that comes out stronger than Lightning Capacitor. As would, then, Serpent-Coil Braid and Dark Moon: Crusade.

An exception to this is Capacitor + Crusade being ideal for AEing such as Morogrim, as they both trigger off each individual crit and hit respectively. You end up with the Card stacking very fast and the Capacitor firing off a lot of bolts.

edit:

Asherett, I would be interested to see your math as I do not believe there is any way the Capacitor approaches +100 damage for Fireball spam. For Scorch spam, it definitely could. Scorch does not benefit nearly as much in terms of DPS from +damage as Fireball, and obviously benefits a lot more from the Capacitor. For this reason on trash with low maximum health I tend to use the Capacitor and Scorch.

Last edited by ebbv : 06/11/07 at 7:51 AM. Reason: Asherett responded as I was typing my response up

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 8:05 AM   #4
Asherett
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by ebbv View Post
edit:

Asherett, I would be interested to see your math as I do not believe there is any way the Capacitor approaches +100 damage for Fireball spam. For Scorch spam, it definitely could. Scorch does not benefit nearly as much in terms of DPS from +damage as Fireball, and obviously benefits a lot more from the Capacitor. For this reason on trash with low maximum health I tend to use the Capacitor and Scorch.
Let's see. I'll take the average TLC bolt at 900 damage (assuming 20% base spell crit rate, which is quite conservative I think). Let's simplify things a bit and say it fires every 10 fireballs - that's 90 damage to each fireball. I can't recall my practical coefficients right now, but ok, 80 +dmg shouldn't be stretching it at least?

As you point out it would be a proportionally much higher +dam equivalent for Scorch - this is why I put it at ~100 +dmg in all (sorry if I implied fireballs only in my first post).

If I'm not mistaken, you seem to be mixing up DPS and +damage in your comparison of TLC to other trinkets

DO feel free to point out any errors I make, I don't have my spreadsheet and I admit I'm out on thin ice.

Last edited by Asherett : 06/11/07 at 8:08 AM. Reason: Clarification about Scorch and TLC

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 9:56 AM   #5
Zedicus
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Darksorrow (EU)
i think my capacitator's average procc is more around 750, maybe a bit higher

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 10:00 AM   #6
Asherett
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
I will go on and post my numbers. First a note about stat weights: when comparing different stats, I take +dmg (or +fire) to be the baseline (weight 100), which leads to 1 crit rating = weight 63 and 1 hit rating = weight 51. The certainty of these numbers are totally dependent on the certainty of the DrDamage addon, otherwise they are correct for my character. Furthermore, I have (from experience/personal preference) set weights of 60 for mana/5 and 50 for spell haste. The rating for spell haste is completely speculative, I have no real info about how spell haste affects DPS. I assume 1 crit per 10 seconds for the sake of critbased procs.

Thus:

TLC: 11667 value: (((1/0.9)*(750*1.2)*(0.35/3))*100

Magtheridon's Eye: 9650 value: (54+(170*(10/40)))*100

Shiffar's: 8640 value: (225*(15(10/0.2)))*100 + 30*63

Sextant: 8220 value: (190*(15/(10/0.2)))*100 + 40*63

Icon: 6883 value: (43+(155*(20/120)))*100

Quagmirran's Eye: 6367 value: 37*100 + (320*(6/(30+6)))*50


I hope this is at least slightly readable/understandable. We often have the usual (staticdmg +) dmg*(timeeffect/totaltime) calc.

For TLC I assume 1 +dmg = 0.9 actual damage, trying to find a balance between Scorch and Fireball coefficients. I'm also assuming a 35% fire critrate and 20% nature critrate.

For Mag's Eye I am assuming 1 "miss" every 40 seconds.

Shiffar's is currently better than the Sextant, since it's effect lasts 15 seconds (tooltip says 10). For both of these I assume 20% procrate (from wowhead)

For Quag's I assume fireball spam and 10% proc (wowhead), so it will proc every 30 seconds, then last 6 (I'm assuming it can't stack or overlap, info about internal CD is unavailable).

Serpent-Coil Braid is a bit more complex so I'll take it by itself here:

(225*(15/120))*100 + 30*63 + 12*51 + ((1067*0.25)/120)*5)*60

1067 is the average mana value of the three best mana gems.

This gives an overall value for the Braid of 5981, which is unfortunately less than even The Restrained Essence of Sapphiron (6167).


A lot of numbers here Let me be clear that my stat weights (expecially except for hit and crit) are highly subjective and based greatly on my own character. I do think most firemages at my item level have reasonably similar relationships for +dmg/crit and +dmg/hit though.

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 10:04 AM   #7
Asherett
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Zedicus View Post
i think my capacitator's average procc is more around 750, maybe a bit higher
I have no idea why this would be the case... 750 is the average damage stated in the item tooltip, and it is very clear it can crit. Looking at one of my guildmates in Karazhan she displays an average Lightning Bolt damage of 848 (very small sample size though).

Edit: Though, looking at your gear (armory), if that is what you are using for raiding you do have a quite low base spell crit chance, may be the cause.

Last edited by Asherett : 06/11/07 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Added comment

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 10:11 AM   #8
ebbv
King Hippo
 
ebbv's Avatar
 
Troll Mage
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by Asherett View Post
If I'm not mistaken, you seem to be mixing up DPS and +damage in your comparison of TLC to other trinkets
You are mistaken, I simply didn't list the DPS figures for the other trinkets as it's complicated and I didn't feel like going into it. I have to leave right this moment but I'll look into your figures in more detail when I get back.

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 10:24 AM   #9
Symphonia
Von Kaiser
 
Symphonia's Avatar
 
Worgen Warrior
 
Dalvengyr
Originally Posted by Asherett View Post
I have no idea why this would be the case... 750 is the average damage stated in the item tooltip, and it is very clear it can crit. Looking at one of my guildmates in Karazhan she displays an average Lightning Bolt damage of 848 (very small sample size though).

Edit: Though, looking at your gear (armory), if that is what you are using for raiding you do have a quite low base spell crit chance, may be the cause.
I noticed an enchancement shaman in that group. The lightning capaciter does get the 20% benefit off of stormstrike. Maybe that's why the average seems high?

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 10:47 AM   #10
Asherett
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Symphonia View Post
I noticed an enchancement shaman in that group. The lightning capaciter does get the 20% benefit off of stormstrike. Maybe that's why the average seems high?
That's a good point! However, the only assumption I'm making is that the bolt CAN crit, which I think there's ample evidence for

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 10:50 AM   #11
Zedicus
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Darksorrow (EU)
sorry forgot about crit, and the gear on armory is my pvp gear, i have 372 crit rating in damage gear

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 12:30 PM   #12
ebbv
King Hippo
 
ebbv's Avatar
 
Troll Mage
 
Destromath
Your math is unnecessarily obfuscated and complicated, IMHO.

Even if you factor in a 20% crit rating, you have to remember that the Capacitor only crits for 150% not 200%, so that boosts its damage to 825 average, not 900. So even at 825 over 27 seconds it's adding 30.5 DPS. That's not insignificant.

However, if we value Icon as a passive +69 (given the Use is done every opportunity), that adds 70 damage to an Improved Empowered Fireball (105%). That's 23 DPS before we even begin to add in all the other factors which cannot affect the Lightning Capacitor. 210% crits, Fire Vulnerability, Curse of Elements, et cetera.

OTOH, Lightning Capacitor adds 61 DPS when Scorch spamming. This is incredibly difficult to match with any other trinket.

edit:

In case anyone doubts that the Icon can make the climb from 23 DPS to over 30.5, here's things that affect its damage which do not affect the Capacitor:

- Fire Power +10%
- Fire Vulnerability +15%
- Curse of Elements +13%

(Total, +38%, now at 30.7 DPS)

- Critical Mass +6% crit
- Pyromaniac +3% crit
- Ignite (210% crit damage)

(+10% damage, now at 34 DPS)

- Molten Fury
- Combustion

Harder to calculate in, but not insignificant.

Maybe I left something out? I don't know. Anyway, my point was not that the Lightning Capacitor is not good. Simply that it is not optimal for Fireball spamming.

Last edited by ebbv : 06/11/07 at 1:24 PM. Reason: More information

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 2:09 PM   #13
Stein
Don Flamenco
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
From purely a DPS perspective for 10/48/3 mage with my gear, this is where i have them:

Quag's Eye - Fireball - 45 DPS (assuming no scorch on proc)
Darkmoon Card: Crusade --- 44 DPS (after 27s ramp up)
Scryer's Bloodgem --- 43 DPS (14 if you're hit capped)
Icon of the Silver Crescent --- 38 DPS
Serpent-Coil Braid --- 38 DPS (27 if you're hit capped)
Arcanist's Stone --- 38 DPS (15 if you're hit capped)
Sextant of Unstable Currents +29 fireball --- 32 DPS
Shiffar's Nexus-Horn +45 dam Fireball --- 31 DPS
The Lightning Capacitor - fireball --- 21 DPS

For scorch spam or AB rotations with fast fillers (AM & Scorch), the on crit trinkets do much better:

The Lightning Capacitor - scorch/ABx3+AM/Scorch --- 45ish DPS
Sextant of Unstable Currents +38 scorch/AB --- 37 DPS
Shiffar's Nexus-Horn +55 scorch/AB --- 36 DPS


You can see my numbers here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...B1LkyAzOz7AiWA

The math on sextant, shiffar's & TLC is in the info tab. I obtained my dam/crit/hit values from Vontre's spreadsheet using my own gear.

(edit: i was lazy and didn't factor in crusade's ramp up time, as the ramp up weight depends on the length of the encounter.)

Last edited by Stein : 06/12/07 at 11:34 AM. Reason: modified TLC estimate - out of date +dam coefficient - added +hit trinkets

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 2:18 PM   #14
ebbv
King Hippo
 
ebbv's Avatar
 
Troll Mage
 
Destromath
Stein, why do you have separate rankings for Shiffar's & Sextant but not for the Capacitor?

The Capacitor benefits from Scorch even more than those trinkets. Those 2 trinkets have crit and damage which scale with the larger Fireball, whereas the Capacitor does not. Of any trinket it is the one which most begs to have separate rankings.

Offline
Old 06/11/07, 2:22 PM   #15
duostrike
Don Flamenco
 
duostrike's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Lightning cap seems best to me in a couple situations

Scorch (short cast - increased crit rate from incinerate)
Arcane missiles (can proc each wave and interesting interaction from arcane potency)
Arcane Blast (short cast - boosted crit rate from arcane impact)
PvP (coupled with molten armor. )

Offline
 

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Class Mechanics

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Back to Hyjal, Part II Praetorian News 8 06/28/07 11:58 AM
Mage trinket advice Hamlet Class Mechanics 49 06/07/07 6:57 AM
Mage trinket math Aphyrax Public Discussion 24 08/11/06 7:01 AM