Many thanks for your posts. I discussed the passive rage generation many times with othertanks of my server in teamspeak and it was always the same. At the beginning they wanted to tell me how to tank in 5 men heroics and what gear i should choose. It took me about 15 minutes to point out that i know ALL of those "tricks" to bypass that stupid mechanism. After they understood that i am NOT asking for help they started to think about the current situation and i recognized they NEVER did before. All they did was searching for "workarounds" about the penalty we get with better gear. That is what EVERY tank has to do or he won't be able to tank in certain situation.
So after about 20 minutes of discussion we were able to start the real discussion about what i wanted to talk about. And only ONE of 12 tanks still disagreed with my arguments that the current mechanism is "stupid" and this one tank is known for "being god". So he is not able to discuss anyway.
I know that my "ideas" about how to change the mechanism are not the one and only solution. I do NOT want blizzard to do it exactly the way i wrote. All i want is every tank to think about the current situation and help us all together do make blizzard change something. Those players telling me they like it as it is and the rest is stuid are next to "god" and there will never be any way to tell them changing things must not always be bad, but some of you started to give this discussion a chance and that makes me happy because i know WE can change this game to what we want it to be because blizzard wants us to play that game.

Stop this nonsense.
I see at least 10 different main warriors disagreeing with the OP.
This would be more than agreeing with him in this thread in fact.
Not to say that discussions are a majority vote, but just stop saying that mostly non warriors disagree with the OP.

Rage and Heal are balanced the way they are set up now.
Some see that as wrong, some do not.

Your best tanking gear is not made for tanking (non heroic!) underbog. What is so difficult to grasp here?
Use gear with STR, Crit and Resilience instead. Pull more mobs. Or tank by DW or a 2H.
Adapt.

Yes it is if you use T4 in SSC, T5 in BT and blue gear in non heroics. (exaggerated comment!)

But as true as your statement is as true is mine. It IS balanced the wrong way and should be balanced inverse as it is.
All i say is the way rage works is stupid, 4 years old and was created by someone not having played a WoW warrior for more than 3 years now and there are many ways to fix it.

- You can not tank in BT with blue gear so that is ok and working as intended.
- You can not tank in prot T5 in non heroic Underborg that is a joke and far from working as intend.

By changing the system we get:

- You can not tank with blue gear in BT what is still working as intended.
- You can tank very well with T5 in non heroic Underborg what should be intended.

Our primary job is to get hit and not die. The perfect tank takes no damage and holds aggro. That's it.

Block rating and agility are both all over T5 and T6, both of them improve not only survivability but threat generation. 3 block value gets you at least 1 tps. When you pair higher crit with higher damage weapons it leads to scaling threat.

Weaponskill will also have a dramatic impact on threat generation as your auto attacks/windfury procs hit for full damage (rather than being dodged, blocked or parried) and your long cooldown abilities land more often, for full effect.

Haste rating is a % scaling effect. That means it has a threat % scaling effect by definition.

I fail to see how it's an ad-hominem attack to remind people that their posts carry less weight when the posts are hard to read or the poster can't be bothered to read the forum rules.

Oh really? How do you know this? I've tanked one or two normal mode instances for a friend, I'm clearly overgeared for it, and I do it just fine.

What bothers me about this thread is that it is mostly supposition, no one has actually seen a decked out T6 tank in non-heroic underbog. Not to mention the fact that this tank and his mythical T6 DPS counterparts really won't be there as anything but a joke. Why change something that will have significant impacts on cutting edge content if you're only trying to fix older content no one cares about?

Yes, methods of scaling threat upward are good. That's still basically tangential to the point. There's no sound reason to be penalized for having higher armor and higher avoidance (i.e. good tanking gear); requiring agility, block value, haste rating, and weapon skill to maintain a baseline is bad.

Weren't you just saying that you had to downgrade your gear to tank Onyxia? Now you don't have to? What changed?

Surprisingly, some people do care about general, universal character improvement. Maybe those people should be more interested in raid progression than anything else, but I think it's totally reasonable that players should expect to become all around better at what they do as their gear improves. Not just better at raiding cutting edge content.

Aside from that, there are fundamental flaws in your reasoning.

First of all, it wouldn't be a massive difference in cutting edge raiding. Especially these days, when many tanks are focusing on stamina over avoidance, you'd be looking at maybe a 15% rage gain on cutting edge content if you changed it to something where you received 50% rage gain from an avoided attack. And judging from the warrior DPS thread, a lot of warrior tanks are apparently having trouble effectively using their rage as it is.

Secondly, even in cutting edge raids you're often forced to tank things that don't hit all that hard. Like trash. Like Hyjal trash. Should you have to constantly be swapping your gear around in all the raids you go to? For my part, I would say that's crazy.

My warrior isn't my main anymore; I had to downgrade to something that didn't require as much time investment. I've been away from tanking for months, and when I look back on everything from pre-TBC up to early TBC release, I can definitely say that the incoming rage model is the most brain-dead part of tanking. I'm not sure why you've gotten so attached to it.

There was an expansion? They changed anger management and unbridled wrath? Focused rage, vitality, shield mastery, and devastate were added as talents?

Here's a real-world example for you guys. I tanked Onyxia just fine last week in my real tanking gear (partially because we only had one hybrid healer available for our "easy money" run and partially because I wanted to see how little damage I could take). Occassionally I had to use bloodrage, however, it's a base skill for warriors and should be expected when you hit a dry spell. I use bloodrage on Gruul, Karathress, and Hydross too. The T4 and T5 geared dps classes that came along (mind you these aren't slouches, they do 7-800+ dps) did not pull aggro. There's no way you could do that before. Oh yea, I'm also basically impervious to her. One dps-spec'd, undergeared healer can keep me up. To me, that's progression.

Hi all,

What I miss in this discussion, regardless theorycrafting , is the FUN factor.

It is no FUN for me to not improve overall , but only regarding future raids where you have to have more ACC, more STA, more everything. I play for FUN and as it is I enjoy the PvE aspect of progression, but after I am done with it there is nothing left for me. You all talk about T5/6 etc, well I have rage issue with my poor Kara gear in heroics. Not in all ofc.
So, the main question for developers should be if its FUN or NOT? or if I should be able to join my undergeared friends and play with them with the gear I gathered ?
I dont think their answer can be: "yes you shouldnt", but I also belive that it is a BIG issue and you wont see a band aid anytime soon, because frankly - and you know it - would require to many resources and time.

Once again, it can be the most genious tanking mechanic in place, if its not FUN ,well, not many would play along that line hence the lack of warriors tanks imho. Why do you think they burn out so quick (same issue with healers), or rotate in guild between dps and tanking. My answer, because its not fun on the long run. Sure there are other aspects of the game, but looking from this point of view as the OP mentioned, I repeat, it is not fun, at least for me.

regards

Nice point!
How long is it fun to work for progress and gear i only need to handle the next step? A rogue gets his gear to deal more and more dps what is needed in solo pve, pvp and raids. What about us tanks. Yes now i am toled (like always) i can switch to duel wield and spam devaste. I know that and i can easy outdps some od our mages and warlocks at aran, but is it fun to stiwch to zerk stance and use skills not powered by my talents (excluding devastate)? For me it is no fun.
Why is a Tank not allowed to deal about 70% of the damage a full DD does? Even with plenty rage. Ok rogues would have no more chance againt a prot warrior but what class can i beat else? Any caster is not interested in my armor class and spellreflect is usable for off warriros like it is for me with the difference the off warrior can easy get those 25 rage.
I have to farm 2 gears to deal some dmg because only ONE skill (shield slam) benefits of my defence values.
We need more talents/styles benefiting from our def gear to deal dmg. And blizzard knows that because they changed revenge already. Now i deal about 250 dps in def gear while i deal 400 dps in off gear. But fighting melee mobs in off gear is a stupid idea because i get plenty more dmg but only +150 dps. So overall i will have to sit down and eat a lot of time and faming in def gear is faster (i got my netherdrake and farmed every day and often solo - i tested it and i was about 33% faster in def gear).
What we realy need is some talent that scales with our prot gear and deals much dmg. Off warrios get more and more AP, crit, hit and better weapons so all styles benefit from there gear. My AP will rise in a way i will not recognice on my white hits (maybe from 800 to 1100 - no big difference at all), i am not able to get much crit and +hit is not often found on def items. So we need some style converting avoidence in dps.
For example something like:

"Headnut
10 Rage - Melee range
Instant - 6 seconds CD

After 3 dodges or parries you are able to deal an instant headnut hitting your enemy for 5% of your armor class. Also causes a high amount of threat."

Just some funny style ^^ i would love the animation

Actually I love the rogue getting 10 crits in a row - just like for a warrior dodging means less threat generation, for a rogue doing a lot of damage is generating a lot of threat too. That's how the threat mechanic in the game works, and when you think about it it makes sense, and would make even more sense if they would make it even worse (but then the game would become unplayable - think what if mobs were smart enough to kill healers first? )
Anyway I thought this was supposed to be about how to handle things, not suggesting changes to blizzard - those you can post on the official forums where they can be nicely ignored.

This quote sums up the whole stupid thread. You only want to discuss with bad tanks who agree with you. If someone's a good player, their opinion is automatically discounted.

Ok... Had to retype everything because I didnt check the 'Remember Me' function ;S Aaanyhow, what my (origonally rather long) reply boiled down to was that you should try and work around the problem rather than slamming your head into it telling it to move ;p

Suggestions may include;

- Run 'some' MC runs for Thunderfury. It is still pretty decent for threat due to the proc, and whilst being a 1.9 spd (sub-optimal for heroic strike, but doable) and really, really low damage (very bad for devastate) the positive side is it does proc off of Devastate (and it procs often). Its a very nice weapon for trash and farm content, just switch to King's Defender or better for progress raids.
- Respec like the rest of us. I respec about 2-4 times a week, by doing so I am able to tank if a tank is needed and otherwise join as (viable) DPS and raidbuffer / mobdebuffer. This also allows me to have some fun in Arena / PvP and do 6 dailys every day within an hour for ~70g a day.
- If the above doesnt appeal to you, reroll druid, they are a pretty hot hybrid. The feral tree allows them to DPS and Tank as well as adding utility, thats 3 roles for 1 tree where any other class has 1 max.

Warriors need to respec and switch gear to change their role, but this is a known fact so you're kind of being a woman for chosing something and trying to change it (no offense intended, its just something they do and most will proudly admit to doing so).


Hope this somewhat helps with your Devastating (hehe) problem ;]