seeyou

I've been Afflic spec for the majority of my raiding career - but I've been bouncing around between a couple of different builds for the last few weeks to see the DPS output/fun factor of each.

I tried 0/21/40 very, very early in my raiding history, when we were still starting Kara with some decent blue gear, so I only have that to go on. I remember some large numbers and very nice damage output, but obviously my gear now and my damage output with Affliction completely dwarfs that. I'm keen to try it again for comparison though - but I'm wondering if doing so with my current gear would accurately reflect what this build is capable of.

My gear focuses on Affliction stats at the moment: 13% crit from gear, 12.5% hit from gear and just below 1200 shadow dmg with Fel armor. Now I've read a couple of threads stating that Destruction needs about 20% crit without talents to really shine, while other threads (and most dps spreadsheets) suggest +hit as being far more valuable than crit until you're hit capped for destro. Most of my gear (frozen shadoweave, etc) is gemmed for +hit/dmg gems, or pure +dmg gems. I have some epic crit gear I can sub in for certain slots to raise crit from gear to around 18% or so, but +dmg and hit would take a knock. We are about to down Mag and enter SSC for the first time - so that's the kind of gear I have access to at the moment if it helps.

Anyway, in summary - would a straight spec switch with the same gear give me an accurate view of this build as compared with Affliction (at my current gear level)? Would I need more crit? More hit? Is it a completely pointless comparison without 20% unbuffed crit and/or more destro-favoring gear?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

Noximus

My guild has been running with all affliction warlocks for a long time now. Were all very well Affliction geared and recently after getting deeper in SSC/TK, we decided to have the crappiest geared "affliction" lock respec Destro for ISB uptime.

For the longest time now, the stats we have used for destro was 25% crit minimum (I even used this minimum back in pre-BC). Minimum 900 +shadow if you're shadow destro and 1k-1.1k +fire if you're going fire destro (not recommended unless you bring 4 mages that use Fire Vulnerability). Obviously, 900 is low for most end-game raiding, it's easily attainable but necessarily, the purpose of a destro lock is for ISB for the shadow priests and warlocks (I bring 4 locks and 2 shadow priests to my raids).

As for hit rating, if you use the FSW/Ss combo you will have enough attainable hit from gear to maybe add a couple hit gems and the rest in crit. You don't really need +dmg as much anymore, so just concentrate on that 25% crit.

From our experience, the shadow destro lock was worth it. ISB is up 90% of the time (he's still re-gearing for crit) and it makes it really worth it. At the same time, it also helps our debuff slots.

Extih <Apocalypse> - Raid Leader - 70 Warlock (Retired)
Noximus <Apocalypse> - 70 Warrior (Retired)

 

seeyou

We have 3 Affliction locks (myself included), 1 destro and one bizarre hybrid who still manages to keep his dps high, so the ISB uptime, while maybe not optimal, is sufficient for now. My question is more along the lines of personal DPS and whether or not I could compare the two specs fairly without a completely different set of gear. While currently I already top the meters in any fight where I'm not on add control / any other duty, I was wondering if a Destruction spec could push out even more.

Your reply did confirm what I thought though, that I don't have the gear requirement for Destruction to accurately compare it to Affliction at the moment. I could re-gem and re-enchant my gear and probably reach a decent compromise between crit, hit and spell damage, but that would defeat the purpose of an easy and non-costly DPS comparison. Perhaps once we're well-established in SSC and the cloth drops with plenty of hit and crit are in my grubby paws, I can give it a try.

By the way - is there an "acceptable" level of +hit for Destruction (boss fights) at which point you can concentrate more on dmg/crit, or do Destruction builds also aim to cap out +hit first?

 

Mondragon

Cap hit first. then you choose if you want max dps, or max ISB uptime/Crits.

 

Noximus

Destro is nice if the healers have the mana to keep you regen'd and on fights where you don't move much at all. You'll most certainly shine on trash, Morogrim, Karathress and maybe Leo if you can maintain your threat. Otherwise, our destro warlock can manage some good dps but it's far from what he used to achieve when he was Affliction. You can argue that it's because he still needs to update some gear in light of the spec but he does meet the requirements/minimums I mentioned earlier. You could also argue (comparing his affliction > destro) that his dps loss is re-gained or even improved by ISB from the other 3 warlocks and 2 shadow priests.

As for hit, he's using the hit from the FSW (socket bonus') and Ss combo. I haven't heard him complain about resist streaks yet. I would assume, as a minimum, that you will need 6% hit, but preferably around 8%.

Extih <Apocalypse> - Raid Leader - 70 Warlock (Retired)
Noximus <Apocalypse> - 70 Warrior (Retired)

 

Demi9OD

I wouldn't spec Destro with any less than 10% hit from gear as a bare minimum. Once you reach hit cap, which should be your #1 focus, you can start focusing more on dmg/shadow dmg/crit. I personally specced full shadow destro and only cast SB and CoD. The DPS increase from picking up imp immolate and emberstorm, and casting immolate, is minimal at best, and probably equal when considering the fact that you can't take advantage of /stopcasting on immolate's GCD cast time.

As far as which stats to gear for after 16% hit, +shadow is the most "profitable", followed by +dmg, with +crit bringing up the rear, due to its high budget cost. Forcing yourself towards a minimal crit of 25% or whatever is really restricting, and will most likely hurt your own personal damage enough to outweigh the benefit from slightly increased ISB uptime. Our raid currently runs 3 destro and 1 afflic lock, and we STILL hit the 40 debuff limit on any fight where everyone can pound on the NPC.

Here is my gear for reference. It really is pretty devastating DPS. I can push 1600 on static raid targets and saw bursts up to 2300 last night with PI and Lust up.

 

Mondragon

hmm not using immolate as destro, everything I have been taught says this is not the correct thing to do.

Here is my gear atm. 199 Hit, 23.4% crit ( add on +5 from Devastation) and 1100 or so damage to all schools.
http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...ol&n=Mondragon

 

tetracycloide

Zero DoTs other than CoD in a destruction build is probably a 5-10% damage loss.

 

Demi9OD

Really? Try it.

Without the 10 fire points you lose personal DPS by casting immolate if you still rock +shadow. You probably lose raid dps either way by casting immolate. I personally find Soul Leech and Netherprot more useful. Of course this is dps in a vacuum. I still cast Immolate and even Corruption on fights where movement or stuns/silences are involved.

edit: god forbid we ever hit a shadow immune/resistant boss, but I'd quickly respec for fire talents for incinerate in that case.

 

seeyou

Wow, you guys out-gear me by orders of magnitude. Judging by your armories, it's becoming increasingly apparent that trying to go for a hit-capped destruction build with enough +dmg and crit is pretty much pointless without SSC-level gear which is just dripping with hit and crit. I think Afflic is the best bet for me till then.

Demikeke, as a matter of interest, I see one of your locks appears to be on the same raiding level as you but is Demo spec. How does his DPS compare to the other locks/classes?

 

Demi9OD

Yeah I was affliction all through SSC and most of TK, and I do think its the best build until you reach a sufficient gear level. The main problem is scaling past tailored gear. You almost max out on DPS with marginal instanced gear and allot that juicy crit/hit/4pc set bonus of tier 6 does very little for you. I still think they should design an Affliction based T6 set with loads of +shadow, although I suppose that it could be better for destro too if you accessorize correctly.

Our Demo lock PVPs a fair amount and usually stays FG for raids. He does really well if the FG stays up, ahead of our Affliction locks and about even with destro. I specced FG myself for awhile with 2/5 tier 5 but was sad to discover that only directed non HoT heals transfered to the pet. VE, Drain Life, Renew, Rejuv, none of it works with the set bonus. The micro-management and liability of the FG, especially while running SL, is pretty tenuous, and the DPS loss is just massive when it dies. Losing 180 spell damage, 5% SL, 5% MD, not to mention the FGs melee just crushes your performance. A resummoned FG will have almost 3k less HP, and contribute less from DK due to lack of fort/mark/ai/kings.

 

Noximus

Demi, are there any specific fights where his pet "always" dies and he's really low on dps?

I guess what I'm asking for is how often does his dps fall behind because of his pet. I have been looking around at trying Demo for SSC/TK but I'm not sure if I'll like the micro-management needed.


You also mentioned you had 3 Destro locks, how is the healer mana? are you three self-sufficient? are there fights that you really arent as useful?

Extih <Apocalypse> - Raid Leader - 70 Warlock (Retired)
Noximus <Apocalypse> - 70 Warrior (Retired)

 

tetracycloide

With zero points in Imp. Imo and Emberstorm not casting immolate and corruption is still a 2-5% damage loss. Of course with the talents the loss is even greater which begs the question, why don't you have imp immolate and at least some emberstorm in a raiding destruction build if they actually boost dps while netherprot does almost nothing in raids? Soul leech isn't even an option for those points and there really are no other DPS boosting talents to be found in destruction.

 

Kobal

The old fallacy of "I do damage while moving, so it must be good".

The only reason not to cast Immolate and Coruption in a stand-and-nuke fight is if their damage/cast time is lower than that of shadow bolt (or if in the case of corruption it is not much better and you do not want to bother with range issues and clog up debuff slots.)

However if the damage/cast time of Immolate and Corruption is lower than that of Shadow Bolt, then they are also not worth casting in a movement/stun/silence fight, except if the cast windows are VERY short.

 

Demi9OD

SSC
Hydross: Great.
Lurker: Dies if it melees.
Karathress: Can stay up with Micro, SL usually gets it killed.
Leotheras: Mmmmm whirlwind. He usually tanks this with Felpup anyways.
Morogrim: Pretty good. VE heals enough, but it also gets spriests killed by murlocs -_-.
Vashj: Dies if it melees Vash.

TK
Al'ar: Does ok on adds, requires micro.
Solarian: Great, but can't SL due to missiles.
Void Reaver: Pretty good. VE heals enough.
Kael'thas: Not bad, but he tanks with Felpup again.

He is better at micro man. with FG than me. I lost it constantly and got tired of using 3-4 shards per boss. If his spriest dies that FG is always fucked though. We usually run a 3lock/2spriest group with a lust swap so our spriests can use max dps rotations and our warlocks barely need to tap and when they do they are healed very quickly by VE. Basically our raid leader takes the approach of maximizing raid DPS. That means every mana class potting on cooldown if required, and minimizing tap time for locks.


With my gear and build, corruption and immolate are lower damage/cast time. If I were to spec 1/21/39 and cast corr I'd lose overall DPS. If I were to spec Emberstorm and Imp Immolate I'd gain around 20dps when using Immolate but I do find Soul Leech and Nether prot useful, yes, for raiding. If I want to keep those talents I can only do 5/5 Imp Immo and 1/5 Emberstorm, which nets me 5dps, and I think the 5% mana saved on sbolt and the 1 tap per fight it may save is more than 5 dps.

 

◊ Kyth

How many sprirests do you guys run with?

I'm still trying, in vain, to explain to the (mage and rogue) raidleader that "but you can lifetap" doesn't mean it's not a big dps loss when I do. We lose out on them constantly to mages, hunters, and healers. If I'm lucky I can slip in as destruction, but not always, and I think they're just shutting me up :p.

 

Demi9OD

We usually have two shadow priests. There are certainly fights where they get split up and are have more limited DPS cycles for more evenly distributed VT and VE.

 

galzohar

Optimized raids require multiple shadow priests imo ;p it's just too good to have them.
Just think that a group of 5 shadow priests would regenerate mana faster than they spend it through VT alone... And it's not like SPs fall much behind in DPS if at all.

 

◊ Kyth

Oh we have two too. They just go to other classes, heh. Last night it was three mages (two frost one fire), three hunters (two BM one MM), a (holy) paladin, and one warlock (me, destruction), while the other two locks were in random groups. And I think the only reason I got the spriest is because I fuss a lot about lifetap, time efficiency, etc., and they know I chug mana pots at every cooldown.

I really wish the mages here could've produced some numbers about their DPS, so that I could have some more rational discussions with our (frost) mage raidleader about why "but you can lifetap", while true, is not necessarily producing the highest raid dps. I mean heck maybe it is, in which case I'll shut up. But I tell him "but you can downrank" .

So far most of what I've gotten is statements like "I run OOM at X minutes in", when what I'm curious about is things like, I take a 15% dps hit to keep up my sustainability. When you look at things like getting in some spirit ticks during pauses on fights, or, say, downranking (which is what our lifetap is), or I don't know...... what do the numbers actually look like.

Not that I don't necessarily believe mages when they passionately say that warlocks never need a shadow priest and all mages always need one -- but I'd like to see some numbers .

 

◊ Kyth

I went and looked at your setup. Not sure I entirely agree with your choices (pyroclasm?) but setting that aside....:

I note you have the crusade trinket also. What tricks have you found to keep up the stack as destruction when you have a casting interrupt? All I've figured out to do so far is to try to be within 20 yards ("fun" when trying to do a cube on mag) and hit shadowburn.

 

tetracycloide

I actually did a lot of those numbers here: Shadow Priest, who gets the most benfit?

At least to the extent that is possible given differences in the two spread sheets and how valid comparing optimal DPS under extreamly favorable circumstances actually is.

Basically the breakdown is something like this. On fights short enough where the mage doesn't ever actually go OOM the lock is the better choice, these fights would be around 5 mins or less. On fights were the mage would go OOM without a SP the mage is the better choice, these fights would be 5 mins to around 15mins long. On fights were the mage is going to go OOM with a SP or not and that last long enough for the lock DPS gain to make up for the added DPS time for the mage the lock is again the better chioce, these fights are typically greater than 15mins long.

Given that most boss encounters fall in that middle range, 5-15 mins, mages should get SP priority for bosses in most raids if you want to max overall raid damage.

Still, all of this is extreamly hard to measure with spread sheets and arbirtrary gear sets.

 

◊ Kyth

Thanks, I'll take a look at those, that's exactly what I was looking for. With the change to how read posts are saved, I've found it's harder to keep up on threads here now.

I'm curious for Demikeke's response, since it sounds like they use spriests exclusively for warlocks. Although perhaps they have a warlock raidleader, and we have a mage (and rogue) raidleader, and that is the difference .

 

Shinigamy

I've been meaning to get back into raiding on my warlock after taking a 6 month hiatus. Being affliction for as long as I can remember, I want to try destro in the raid game.

My specific question is, what about firelocks? I've been thinking about it, since my guild is heavy on fire mages and light on warlocks and shadow priests.

Some basic raw calculations that I did say that discounting Imp. SB, incinerate does more damage than shadow bolt untill roughly 1700 spell damage, providing max available debuffs on the target. Considering my guild rarely has even one shadow priest in attendance, even with Imp. SB incinerate comes out on top, if even just barely.

Is there something I'm missing? I'm asking because I basically never see people discussing the spec. People only ever really look at 0/21/40(my intended spec as well, btw) using SB.