[Warlock] Destro raiding and minimum stats - Page 8

dedmonwakeen · 07/18/07, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Silmeria

Righto, I understand the cause and the effect. My point was that even if he has the fire talents, it matters more on the ability usage (in this specific example), not on the presence of talents or not (whether or not he has conflag, I won't assume he's using it unless directly stated). I want to see the underpinning data, and not assume it based off the spec. I think we're in agreement here. =)

If you look at the profiles you will see a line starting "spells=....".

This is not a rotation, but a priority list.

Every time a player has a "ready" event, it walks the list asking the spell is ready to be cast.
For example:
(1) LifeTap will return ready=false if the warlock has more than 1k mana.
(2) CurseOfShadow will return ready=false if it is already present on the target.

Looking at the DrainLife profile you will see ShadowBolt with a higher priority than DrainLife. However, the SB has a modifier "nightfall_1" that will only return ready=true when the warlock has the Nightfall buff. So DrainLife remains the "spam" cast with occasional SB's when Nightfall procs.

Hmmm..... This is all info that should have been included on the Profies page. My apologies!

Noximus · 07/18/07, 8:48 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Hmmm..... This is all info that should have been included on the Profies page. My apologies!

Ah yes, if you use the logic you explained above, most of your code makes more sense now. I had no idea you were applying it like that, frankly I should have thought of it as a coder. If you can provide all that logic, it will make it much easier to understand your simulation.

As for your earlier question, the spell break down would help but I was referring to the overall data used and how it was used (ie: the logic). Also, as I said in another post, it would help the conclusion if you could simulate with multiple gear sets. You could try simulating what happens when the shadow priest is under geared compared to the locks, when the shadow priest is better geared than the locks or all of them aren't "perfectly" geared. The different setups (mainly the none-perfectly geared setup) would allow you to better compare the breaking points.

dedmonwakeen · 07/18/07, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by Noximus

As for your earlier question, the spell break down would help but I was referring to the overall data used and how it was used (ie: the logic). Also, as I said in another post, it would help the conclusion if you could simulate with multiple gear sets. You could try simulating what happens when the shadow priest is under geared compared to the locks, when the shadow priest is better geared than the locks or all of them aren't "perfectly" geared. The different setups (mainly the none-perfectly geared setup) would allow you to better compare the breaking points.

Ah.... now I understand.

Varying the SP gear set is an excellent idea.

I had hoped that 5x Affliction vs 1 SP would be a near worst-case scenario for equal gear.... but now I think that was not correct?

jericho · 07/23/07, 5:52 PM

hi guys,

well im kinda newbie player and im wondering about how i can raise my dps more. im full fire dest and my guild newly entered to karazhan.im using 0/21/40 and sacrificed imp. i completed belt and gloves of spellfire set and farming for robe and spellstrike set. i have decent blue 5 man gear. and as you notice our guild is new so we dont have s priest and fire mage atm. am i doing right?

we cant menage to get Prince Malchezaar down because of lack of dps. Wow Web Stats im the only warlock at raid and i know our setup isnt an aproppriate setup. btw this is our second week at kara.

and please tell me about what amount of spell hit, spell dmg, crit chance i must get. and remember this please, we are not a heavy raider guild

thx a lot

Bogeywoman · 07/23/07, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by jericho

hi guys,

well im kinda newbie player and im wondering about how i can raise my dps more. im full fire dest and my guild newly entered to karazhan.im using 0/21/40 and sacrificed imp. i completed belt and gloves of spellfire set and farming for robe and spellstrike set. i have decent blue 5 man gear. and as you notice our guild is new so we dont have s priest and fire mage atm. am i doing right?

we cant menage to get Prince Malchezaar down because of lack of dps. Wow Web Stats

Fill out your profile. There's no way to see what gear you have or what your guildies' gear looks like, and your report appears to have obfuscated names (e.g. there is no level 70 'Hassansabbah') so we can't look you up in the armory.

That said, you appear to have less than 5% hit, and not a lot of damage either. I would give up the 21/40 plan until you get 1000 +fire damage and 10% hit. I would also have your guildies run more heroics for better gear. Was that druid really trying to dps? Even on prince that dps is pretty terrible.

Go 41/n/18. Max out suppression to get a decent +hit rate on 60% of your damage. Get a dot timer and make sure all dots are up all the time. Collect loot.

jericho · 07/23/07, 8:37 PM

Originally Posted by Bogeywoman

Fill out your profile. There's no way to see what gear you have or what your guildies' gear looks like, and your report appears to have obfuscated names (e.g. there is no level 70 'Hassansabbah') so we can't look you up in the armory.

That said, you appear to have less than 5% hit, and not a lot of damage either. I would give up the 21/40 plan until you get 1000 +fire damage and 10% hit. I would also have your guildies run more heroics for better gear. Was that druid really trying to dps? Even on prince that dps is pretty terrible.

Go 41/n/18. Max out suppression to get a decent +hit rate on 60% of your damage. Get a dot timer and make sure all dots are up all the time. Collect loot.

umm i think u checked wrong armory or you missed out hassansabbah. durid is our off tank and he was trying to help dps. all of nicks at that log is true so u can check it out easily.
The Armory and here my armory sheet. u can find hassansabbah now

and thanks for your comments

Noximus · 07/24/07, 8:43 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Ah.... now I understand.

Varying the SP gear set is an excellent idea.

I had hoped that 5x Affliction vs 1 SP would be a near worst-case scenario for equal gear.... but now I think that was not correct?

Well, the problem here is that you would have to account for the debuff limit. I don't think you should go for awkward setups like this. Here are a couple of examples:

2 SP, 3 Aff, 1 Destro
2 SP, 2 Aff, 2 Destro
1 SP, 2 Aff, 2 Destro
1 SP, 3 Aff, 1 Destro

Most guilds shouldn't really want to bring 5 warlocks to a raid if you're bringing a shadow priest as well, so I don't think you should simulate that setup.

Booney · 07/25/07, 7:09 AM

I have a 37/3/21 build atm with this gear: The Armory
Now would my DPS gain by speccing down to UA? Any other changes you would advice me to make gear or talentwise?

• frmorrison · 07/25/07, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Booney

I have a 37/3/21 build atm with this gear: The Armory
Now would my DPS gain by speccing down to UA? Any other changes you would advice me to make gear or talentwise?

You would gain more dps via UA assuming there was a debuff slot viable.

If you have 3+ UA locks, it is likely that some debuffs will be knocked off, so that is an advantage to having non-UA spec, slighter lower theoryical dps, but then your DoTs should run their full course.

Disposition · 07/25/07, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by Booney

I have a 37/3/21 build atm with this gear: The Armory
Now would my DPS gain by speccing down to UA? Any other changes you would advice me to make gear or talentwise?

I suggest you read over the other warlock threads about dps where this question has been addressed 100 times. You can simply search for them and you will find plenty of advice about UA being a better raid spec that SM/ruin.

seeyou · 07/25/07, 9:55 AM

So having started this thread and seen it take several dozen wildly divergent different directions, I thought now would be a safe time to ask for some advice.

My guild is slightly more advanced progression-wise, though not much. But I've reached the point in my gear where I'm hit-capped with a couple of options to play with, and I'm still interested in giving Destro a go.

My armory should be linked in my profile. To summarize, as things now stand, my PVE gear stats are:

1234 shadow dmg
just under 15% crit
196 hit rating

Now, I realize this is a low amount of crit for a destro build. I have some options as far as re-gemming goes, and some slight gear choices I can switch between, but I'm still somewhat limited until that damn Boots of Blasting pattern drops.

I was wondering if anyone could share some gem/enchant/gear choice advice for my particular situation. Would it be more advantageous to sacrifice some spell dmg for crit? Different items in the slots? Different enchants?

Or did I jump the gun entirely and switch from Affliction too early to really see a viable alternative with similar (or better) DPS?

Lazare · 07/25/07, 11:57 AM

A couple of warlocks in my guild have specced destruction, and I'm wondering if this is wise given their gear level. Reading through this thread there seems to be no consensus on a good rule of thumb or cutoff point for when destruction gives reasonable returns. Does anyone want to hazard a rough guess at one?

Or failing that, here is the armory profile of one of our warlocks:
The Armory

Short form is unbuffed roughly 950 shadow damage, 850 fire damage, 42 hit rating, 19.6% crit, and a 0/21/40. The hit seems awfully low to me, but I'm a shadow priest and will cheerfully admit to knowing nothing about warlock mechanics.

So...is destro vaguely viable at that gear level? Not really concerned about min/maxing as such, but if the player in question would see large damage gains from a simple respec, I'd like to make sure they know about it.

Flamingcloud · 07/25/07, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by seeyou

1234 shadow dmg
just under 15% crit
196 hit rating

Now, I realize this is a low amount of crit for a destro build. I have some options as far as re-gemming goes, and some slight gear choices I can switch between, but I'm still somewhat limited until that damn Boots of Blasting pattern drops.

I was wondering if anyone could share some gem/enchant/gear choice advice for my particular situation. Would it be more advantageous to sacrifice some spell dmg for crit? Different items in the slots? Different enchants?

Or did I jump the gun entirely and switch from Affliction too early to really see a viable alternative with similar (or better) DPS?

I've looked at your gear and I believe you do have good enough gear to be destro. You need to resocket your chest, bracers, and maybe stick a blue in your belt. You say your shadow is 1234 but you aren't counting your dmf card so even a conserative +60 estimate average from that puts you at around 1300. Get boots of blasting, get solarian wand, get tier 5 if you can (I think you would greatly benefit from gaining the health)

As far as gem choices go.. If I am running in a fully buffed situation with 1580shadow(1400 fire) 27.5% crit, 15% hit... 1 spelldamage still helps considerably more (more than enough to offset imp sb) than 1 crit rating. So the only reason you should really ever use potent noble topaz is if it is a yellow slot going after a socket bonus you want. That being said pretty much every socket is yellow so who knows lol.

To Lazare: no destruction is not even "vaguely viable" at that gear level. That is a premium example of a malediction/ua gear level.

probiscus · 07/25/07, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Lazare

Short form is unbuffed roughly 950 shadow damage, 850 fire damage, 42 hit rating, 19.6% crit, and a 0/21/40. The hit seems awfully low to me, but I'm a shadow priest and will cheerfully admit to knowing nothing about warlock mechanics.

1) Direct them to this thread, and inform them that before posting a question, they should read the thread from beginning to end. Else they will be ridiculed.
2) That gear sucks.
3) General consensus for when it's OK TO SPEC DESTRO NOW is when you're hit capped, with something along the lines of 18-20% tooltip crit YMMV.

The priority however is: 1) be hit capped 2) get lots of damage and 3) squeeze some crit in without kneecapping #1 or #2.

I'm not sure if I logged out in PvE or PvP gear (edit: not to be too confusing, but I guess I logged out in trash killing gear, yay), but I'm hit capped with all crafted stuff, a couple heroic pieces, and 4 pieces of Kara gear. Basically stuff everyone should have had for 3 months now. I've tried destro, and personally don't like it - but I feel my gear can support a DPS level that won't get me laughed out of the room. That being said, every time I've tried 0 21 40 I've always gone back to either affl or felguard b/c 0 21 40 is so mind blowingly horrible in PvP.

TLDR: Your friend doesn't have anywhere near enough hit.

seeyou · 07/25/07, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

I've looked at your gear and I believe you do have good enough gear to be destro. You need to resocket your chest, bracers, and maybe stick a blue in your belt. You say your shadow is 1234 but you aren't counting your dmf card so even a conserative +60 estimate average from that puts you at around 1300. Get boots of blasting, get solarian wand, get tier 5 if you can (I think you would greatly benefit from gaining the health)

As far as gem choices go.. If I am running in a fully buffed situation with 1580shadow(1400 fire) 27.5% crit, 15% hit... 1 spelldamage still helps considerably more (more than enough to offset imp sb) than 1 crit rating. So the only reason you should really ever use potent noble topaz is if it is a yellow slot going after a socket bonus you want. That being said pretty much every socket is yellow so who knows lol.

Thanks for the reply and the advice. So basically if I'm understanding you correctly, I should be aiming for increases in +dmg while maintaining hit, and letting my crit increase as a "coincidental bonus" due to gear upgrades with crit as part of their budget?