Kasi

Yeah I'm hoping that the buff stacks if you crit twice in a row, but if it doesn't it still is a slight buff. I'm curious to how the analysis works on Chain Lightning though. I know many shamans with a spriest do a 3 or 4 LB, CL rotation. What do you think would be better?

1. Knowing that you crit and the next spell you cast will be 40% off (the second of the two spells after the crit since you're already casting the next LB when you got the first crit) and thus using CL knowing you're getting it at 60% cost.

2. Or just keep to a hard rotation and who cares if it crits or not, just make sure you do it as much as you can. I suppose for Ele shamans with good enough spriests and gear that it wouldn't matter anyway.

But between the two I think this new change unless it stacks will hurt mana costs on mixing CL into your rotation. Lets say you're critting at 40%. You have a 40% chance your CL now will be 300 mana, 60% it will be 750 mana. That means I think an average CL cost of 570 mana.

With the new system you'd have a ugh, I'm not sure how to model this. Your crit will propogate to 2 reduced cost casts. Well lets see if I can remember my probability. Your chance to crit on your last cast was 40%.

So we need to figure out:
1) You crit on this spell but not on the last
2) You crit on the last spell but not this
3) You crit on both.

Which I think the easiest way to do this is find out what is the chance that you crit on neither of the last two spells and subtract that from 1. Which means 0.6x0.6, or 36% chance you're not CC. Thus making it 64% chance you are clearcasting.

Thus .64% chance to have it cost 450 and .36% chance to have it cost 750. Which actually gives a mana cost of an avg CL at 558 mana, which means my original thought was wrong. Even in mindless spamming of a LB, CL rotation this should be a net mana gain over time. What I do like is that since I don't have a SP I can more intellgently use CL. I can chain cast and only use CL when I know I'm getting it for cheap. Of course if I don't have a shadow priest, I can probably only spam LB anyway.

 

Daidalos

Yeah overtime it should average out the same percentages as pure LB spam. CL costs more after a crit but the elefocus affects more of your CL's so over time it evens out. Just to double check I modified my program for a LBx3 then CL rotation and got:

crit with for current elemental focus 40
crit with for proposed elemental focus 40
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
Live version
Total mana used 3086139.1999998437
Total number of casts 10000
Average mana used 308.6139199999844
Percent reduction 0.24865752891056758
Proposed version
Total mana used 3022854.4000002337
Total number of casts 10000
Average mana used 302.28544000002336
Percent reduction 0.26406466220322977

But personally I'd prefer to get haste gear and just go pure LB spam and skip the CL's unless you can hit multiple targets (still need shadow preist but you can similar dps and a lil more mana efficient). Also if the buff stacks that would be awesome.

 

• Binkenstein

I don't think I'll work in the EF changes until we can see how the buff stacks.

Then comes the fun part of trying to work out how to include it into the current system.

Assuming just two stacks, could do that 1-((1-crit)*(1-crit)) to see the chance of getting a 40% reduction.

64% of 40% reduction = 25.6% overall
40% of 60% reduction = 24% overall

It'll be interesting to play with anyway.

Also, the LO procing CC, is this a current mechanic, or to be introduced with the next patch?

 

Daidalos

LO proccing CC is supposed to be in the current mechanic. It was in one of patch notes I don't remember which. Maybe if someone could verify this? Patch notes can be confusing or not implented correctly. I'm resto so I can't check atm.

here a snipped from the 2.1 patch notes:
"Elemental Focus": This talent now reduces the cost of the next damage spell by 60%. It will also now trigger from bonus spells cast by "Lightning Overload"

hmm I think I combined the 2.2 effects as well (having read them like 5 weeks ago or whatever I was thinking it was live, My bad). I think it no longer consuming ele focus is in 2.2.
"Elemental Focus: The free spell triggered by a Lightning Overload will no longer consume this effect."
hm so actually this means the live version of ele focus is worse than I calculated. bah! Anyways the change to EF is a buff. The live calculations were off so I corrected those. They will be accurate once 2.2 is implemented however. The 2.3 patch and the 2.2 patch are both buffs (2.2 less so).

So I'm assuming that while LO can trigger CC it also consumes it in live so its a wash and I do nothing.
updated with corrected live mechanics and the same 2.3 mechanics LB spam:

crit for current elemental focus 40
crit for proposed elemental focus 40
converting crit for LO mechanics in 2.2
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
Live version
Total mana used 2264506.2000000635
Total number of casts 10000
Average mana used 226.45062000000635
Percent reduction 0.23753999999997866
Proposed version
Total mana used 2191622.3999998467
Total number of casts 10000
Average mana used 219.16223999998468
Percent reduction 0.2620800000000516

 

Phlis

Another question about Shiffars:
I downloaded the 8/21 version of Shamstats, and noted in the trinkets page, shiffar's nexus horn has a spell damage value of 40, flat. I was wondering about the math behind this? Seems like it should be some equation based off current Scrit%. I, badly, tried to put something together, but at higher levels of crit it was tellign me Shiffar's was the best trinket in the game. Obviously I think I screwed something up, how is the damage for this trinket figured out, in general?

 

• Binkenstein

If I don't put a calc on a proc based trinket, the figure is most likely from posts on wowhead.

usually it's (proc value * duration)/internal cooldown + reproc lag time, although I guess I'll stick with the assumption that all on use trinkets are used as soon as the cooldown is up, and that the procs will proc as soon as their cooldowns are up.

*makes changes*

It's nice carrying the master copy around on a memory stick. I don't have to make notes to do stuff at work now

 

Ames_01

apparently 12 agi 3% crit damage is being nerfed next patch to 203% crits not 209% crits. Wondering which meta to switch to now, spell crit or spell damage, or just keep the same

 

Benjaimn

I heard it was just going to go down to 206%, do you have a link where they say it is really going to be 203%? If that is true I plan on going back to the spell dmg meta since run speed is always nice.

 

Moshne

I am having a hard time getting the ShamStats sheet to work properly, I hope I didn't miss it on one of the earlier pages, is it not compatible with OpenOffice, or do I need to find an "extremely legitimate" copy of Excel to use it correctly?

 

• Binkenstein

The question is whether it goes 50% -> 53% -> 106% or 50% ->100% ->103%.

ie: is the extra crit damage applied before or after talents? Given that most +dmg/+heal talents are applied after, I'm leaning towards the latter.

It's made in Excel 2003, macro's are made from the VB editor. I assume you'll have to open it in some compatibility setting in Open Office.

 

• Binkenstein

updates!

Put the finished socket bonus version up, fixed up a few bugs/missing items.

Next step: more items to be added!

 

• Binkenstein

Slightly bored, so working on the maths to implement the EF change.

A 40% cost reduction for the next two spells, assuming that the buff stacks to two.
To work out the number of times we get a crit, and thus two buffs, is standard Crit%
Multiply crit% by 2 and 0.4 (# buffs and reduction per buff) we get Crit*0.8 as the mana "reduction".

However, there is a chance you'll get two crits in a row, and lose one buff. Crit% * Crit% gives us the chance of this happening, multiplied by 0.4 again for the reduction lost to chain crits.
Crit% ^2 * 0.4.

So now we have the following:

R = Reduction (0.4)
C = Crit%
B = # of buffs (2)
M = Mana cost reduction

(R * B * C) - ( C * C * R) = M

Doing some re-arrangement, I come to the following:

RB(B-C)=M

Which substitutes to

(0.4 * 2)(2-C)=M

0.8 + 1.6C - C^2 = M

I think this should give us a decent model for the change to EF, assuming that the buff only stacks to two.

[edit]Trying it in my shamandps calc gives a wrong value. Redoing the maths gives 0.8C - 0.4C^2 = M which gives a better answer.

Looking at it, should get ~2% more DPS out of that change[/edit]

 

Ames_01

2% more dps? or last 2% longer?

 

• Binkenstein

2% more dps over a comparable timeframe

 

Ames_01

mmm im not seeing how a change to clearcasting is gonna effect my dps, unless you are taking into account a CL rotation

 

Base

I actually think the calculation can be as simple as it is stated on the gem. Your crit damage gets boosted by 3%, in other words your crits become 1.03 times as strong. This means that with a 100 damage hit, your crits will now be 200 x 1.03 = 206 damage if you have the 50% crit talent., and if you would not have the crit talend the new damage would be 150 x 1.03 = 154.5 damage. I think this simple calculation is consistent with some of the testing I saw that gave a 4.5% and 6% increase, but looking trough this board I seem unable to find the numbers I based this on... And unfortunately I dont have acces to the gear so I can test it myself.

The old 9% could have come from the previous way of calculating (150 * 1.03) + 100% critpart = 154.5 + 54.5 = 209 damage giving the previous +9% damage. At least thats how I allways looked at it.

 

Kasi

I'm confused how this 4 piece T4 bonus works and if I should go for it. Did some checking on wowhead and the posts there seem to contradict what was posted here earlier in this thread. I know the buff lasts 15 seconds, but isn't the 270 mana reduction consumed by the next immediate cast or not? If not its massively overpowered, since nearly free LBs for 15 seconds is awesome. If it is consumed it seems like about a 4% increase in efficiency and not much worth going for given that some of the T4 pieces are lackluster.

 

• Binkenstein

Less mana used, so more mana available to cast LB, thus more DPS.

IIRC shamandps doesn't have a casting delay/lag function built in, so it maybe slightly overstating the effect of mana.

I was wondering where the 9% came from.

That way of looking at it is certainly what I'd think would happen, but as they are making changes it could be a simple additive bonus, ie: 150% becomes 153%, 200% becomes 203%. Thats what we need to confirm once the change has been made (it's up on the PTR atm?)
The bonus is worded:
What actually happens is you get a 15 second buff that reduces the cost of all of your spells by 270. Rumours abound as to whether this is a bug or the tooltip is incorrect.

 

Inkognito

Indeed is a very nice set bonus to have, the buff should probably get consumed at your next spell but like everything in wow it works like intended.. in this case in our favor.

Anyway i am a brand new born elemental shaman respeced elemental for pve raiding, after 2 years of constant resto healer in raids and i am trying to improve atm as much as i can, the respec i did i want it to be into the best of the guild and for that i need to maximize my dps in raids, atm i am somewere at the middle and what i want is to try to go in most boss fights in top 5, atm i am at 8-10 place and anything i do i cant increse my overall dps. So the problems i have atm is mostly partial resists, resists even sometimes but not so much 1/50 maybe on bosses and crits normaly lower then my average.

Atm my guild has 3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC on farm, my gear shortly ~900 nature dmg, ~24% crit unbuffed, 3xT5 2xT4 Veteran Belt Boots Neck and Bracer most of the times i have no shadow priest in my party in raids so i depend on potions, mana spring, BoW, and of clearcasting many times happend to go oom especially in fights like solarian were i need to CL the spawns,

The Armory

the questions would be:

1.how much crit chance i should go for?
2.if i go for crit more then spell dmg will that increase my dmg output overall in the fight? (ex. atm i have the spell dmg dagger from pvp 225+40 enchant switched with Nathrezim Mindblade, i louse 18 hit rating and 20 spell dmg and i win 23 crit rating same thing with Icon of the Silver Crescent i want to change it with Sextant of Unstable Currents were i louse even more spell dmg so lousing maybe 100 spell dmg for 4-5% more crit)
3.i started to use Quartz 2 days ago and it works a bit batter any other trinks i should know?
4.i like to get the set bonuses from items normally on yellow/red i go with Potent Noble Topaz(crit and spell dmg) and for blue Radiant Talasite (penetration and crit), ive read the post about penetration being useless but if the bosses partialy resist lets say 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 of the spell isnt that because of not enough penetration and if penetration is useless better get subtlety on cloak then?

Anyway sorry for the long post is just something that is bothering me for the last week now, i want to be as good as i can possibly be, overall i am just not satisfied with my dps output, i'm used to be one of the best healers in raids i want the same with dps.

 

Benjaimn

1. For the content you are in I would shot for 23-25.

2. I would stick with the spell dmg, the one major thing we Elemental shamans have going for us is that we scale better with spell dmg then any other class.

3. Just practice /stopcasting and thats about it.

4. You should only be using Potent Noble Topaz and Runed Living Ruby unless you are making sure your meta gem works. Spell penetration won't fix the problem you are having and by looking at your gear you must just be getting unlucky. If anything will help your DPS it will be fixing your gems and focusing on getting the stop casting down right.

 

Daidalos

I think when ppl see partial resist they think its a penetration issue. That is not the case in most pve encounters. Partial vs full resists depend on the spell used and its not really related to a school. Mages frequently think fire is partial resist and frost is binary.

Partial vs binary depends on the mechanics of the spell not the school. So for example a earth shock will not have a partial resist but LB will. Why? The interrupt mechanic of the earth shock makes it binary (since you can't partially interrupt someone). LB has no secondary effect and thus is partial. Same goes for frostbolt/frost shock. The snare effect makes it a binary resist spell. The dot from flame shock evidently doesn't count and can be partially resisted like most mage fire spells (dragons breath I think is binary not sure though).

Assuming you are hit capped resists (even partial ones) are just that 1% chance since you can only get 99% chance to hit. Penetration would help on a few bosses but very few. ROS is the only boss that comes to mind atm.

And yes sublety is the best enchant on cloak for pve for dps.

You are assuming that the fight is longer than the amount of time you have mana to cast. There are many situations where that is not the case. (Short fights like Akama, or if you have good shadow priests in group etc) In those more mana does not increase dps. In my guild we usually have 2 shadow preists in raid so I would agree with Ames_01 that its more accurate to say increases amount of time casting or some such. being able to CL more is a good option for the extra mana which DOES increase dps (unless you have alot of spell dmg have some haste gear and are lusted. LB spam can actually be more dps in those rare cases). Since according to my calculations a LB LB LB CL rotations is never achievedable for more than than maybe 5 mins max with a single well geared spriest.

 

• Binkenstein

Why does everyone not see the whole "when mana is an issue" caveat on discussions regarding mana? Or insist that you should always have a spriest?

There is one big assumption I make when making any statement about elemental DPS: You are not relying on any other class for extra damage/crit/mana/etc.
Why? Because if that class isn't there, or you can't get that buff/debuff, you're screwed. Look on these as bonuses, not base requirements.

So, to make it slightly clearer, when mana is an issue you can see approx 2% dps increase. If it isn't, then you can stack more dmg/crit over int/mp5

 

Inkognito

I got the ideea and tbh i find it much clearer now, anyway i will try to get a spriest in my group always, still even with a shadow priest in my group is there any chance i will overdps other casters like mages and warlocks? Anyway ty for the reply i am seriously thing about switching all my penetration with stamina on gems and subtlety on back also next item to go for that i already payed for is belt of blasting even a cloth item i find it extremly good, i am trying to get ridd of those nasty resilience items as much as possible.

 

Base

Depends on how good they are and in what gear they run around

Here is a WWS from a Gruul kill we did. Our guild only just started working on Magtheridon so crafted gear is still relatively powerfull, most of our cloth casters have the crafted set.
Abase is my alt shaman (yes, original name... my hunter is called Abasa, sue me :P). Since its my Alt, this is the first time I am at Gruul, and I have only been twice in Karazhan of which one time I was healing specced. So not much raiding experience on my Shaman yet. My Main is a Prot warrior and I usually Maintank Gruul so I do know the fight well.

So here is the report, you can see I came in third on damage done on the Gruul kill. Just check out the Gruul kill, I was healing on Maulgar so not too usefull to look at (or overall damage done). Since I usually MT, our tank was new so we had some minor issues with tank deaths

So on this progression level Elemental Shaman can do really well. Do note I had a shadowpriest.

 

Podia

Okay so we have entered BT and hyjal, items with spell haste has started to show up. So i thought i read trou this thread and see how much calculations that was done on it. I would love to do some theorcrafting with it but i lack some numbers. So i thought ill poke here.

1. How much spellhaste is needed to get LB down to 1.5sec casting speed including talents. The spellhaste rating should be with the buff that is coming in the next patch.

2. Would a 1.5sec LB casttime make CL useless in the rotation since you will wait for GBC anyway.

It would be intressting to see if you can render CL useless and thus actually save mana just spamming LB with better dps.

I have looked at the dps chart but since it only sais spellhaste rating and im not even sure if it's the current spellhaste rating or the uppcoming one im not sure i wanna trust it to much.