RK

Closest I know of is Maulgar. I (and ranged generally) can plant in the middle of the room and basically never have to stop casting until everything is dead (for maximum efficiency, switch targets with a bolt in the air when the previous guy is down to the point where you know he'll die before your cast finishes). Depending on positioning you might need to take a few steps to get range on the last mob, other than that the only interruption is totem recasts.

Of course, Maulgar is far from ideal for many other class to benchmark on, but it is pretty much ideal for elemental shaman.

 

Rephaim

Dr. Boom in Netherstorm is perfect for that...


Hamilburg is correct... no amount of +damage will ever make LB better than CL in DPS because CL scales BETTER for DPS with +damage by 4.33%

 

Dicho

Dr. Boom is a fantastic guy to test your dps on, however he does have some problems.

First of all the boom bots means you have to find interesting topographical features to stand on to use your shocks(unless youre using the pvp gloves).

Secondly, you are forced to use Dmg to target, or CL dmg will be vastly inflated.

Thirdly he is only lvl 68, vastly cutting down on partial resists and resists in general.

If you are testing raid dps, his hp isnt really sufficient either, as a few people whacking away at him will quickly kill him.

The beauty of Patchwerk(apart from his handsome features) was that you could not overaggro him(well, normally anyway), he stood in a fixed position, and there was no movement or anything other then button mashing involved for the dps.

Back to the spell rotation:

I must admit I did not factor LO proccs in my considerations of FS.
In the long run LB/CL spam is probably the best, albeit boring rotation to use.

 

Voltan

Ok, finally had a chance to have a look at things and its time for some numbers. I'm using Binkensteins Elemental Rotation spreadsheet. The details I input myself were 1080 spelldmg and 42% crit.

LB Spam over 60 seconds.
30 Casts of LB - 1442 DPS over 60 seconds.

LB/LB/LB/CL rotation over 60 seconds.
22 casts of LB & 10 casts of CL - 1574 dps over 59 seconds.

FS/LB/LB/LB/LB/LB/LB rotation over 60 seconds.
25 casts of LB & 5 casts of FS - 1475 dps over 57.5 seconds (When I added an extra LB, the DPS dropped to 1474 if someone with more time could look at why this happens on the spreadsheet I would be greatful)

Working on an feasible rotation for CL&FS integrated into LB spam, Spreadsheet is kicking out 1607 dps for a rotation containing 18 LBs, 10 CL's and 5 FS's over 58.5 seconds. Just need a bit of time to calculate when its possible to add in the CL&FS's. It does look to be a higher dmg rotation, however it looks like we'd have a hunter-style pain trying to weave these into the rotation (CL having to be cast on CD, and FS as soon as the DoT portion is finished), the may result in the loss of regular LB casts.

Also, the MPS is coming out at 228, which 1140Mp5 resulting in OOM in only 40seconds without Mp5 gear/Raid buffs. hmm.. maybe not possible to keep that sort of mana drain up for long - I'll work out exactly how long it's possible for me with full raid buffs to keep this up later, Although to be perfectly honest, the hassle this will cause in a raid enviroment, may result in more 'dropped' spells due to movement, lag, lack of mana etc etc. for only an extra 33dps. (Hmm, that would be pretty noticeable) - Watch this space.

Just reading back over this post, the numbers are pretty damn high DPS. Are the crits from talents added onto these results?

Anyway... back to work - will look into this as soon as I have more time.

 

Voltan

Yer, DR boom is pretty unrealistic. I cranked out 1.8kdps over 3minutes here. - Lol..

I'd love a boss that spawns little adds as well, things like getting another target whilst DD-ing with CL make me tingly inside (the Totems/pet @ Karathress net me an extra ~50 dps).

 

Totemologist

Single target - LB spam wins, to coefficent for LB is better as well so as you add +Dam this becomes even more apparent.


There really is no 'efficent' dps cycle outside of pure LB spam. Your DPM will plummet by adding in CL and Shocks while adding very marginal returns to your overall output. Concider that when you stop to shock you also miss out on a chance to Proc LO and that should pretty much show you that the best time to shock is when you want to get the KB damage spike at the last % of the mobs HP.

It's all been said above, just confirming.

 

subscience

A 135 DPS increase isn't substantial? Obviously, the downside is that your DPM goes down.

Using the numbers above, base mana cost, and no Elemental Mastery.
30 LBs = 9900 MP => 1442 DPS for 165 MP/s => 8.74 DPM
22 LBs, 10 CLs = 15610 MP => 1574 DPS for 260.2 MP/s => 6.05 DPM

135 DPS for the cost of 95.2 MP/s (or 380.8 MP/5) with a 2.69 DPM delta.

Elemental Focus/Mastery, Lightning Overload and other talents will bump up your DPM.

 

Nite_Moogle

The problem is you're more than doubling your mana for that one cast for a very minor increase in damage. It really isn't worth it unless you're not going to be able to empty your mana pool before the fight ends.

 

subscience

I completely agree, but increased DPS is increased DPS and I believe that was the argument at hand [edit for clarity - the argument that a CL rotation doesn't provide a large enough DPS increase to make it worthwhile. 'Worthwhile' is, of course, case-specific, but going full-burn-CL rotation gives a much larger DPM tradeoff than any cycle with Shocks by a pretty large degree]. As shown above, DPM drops significantly (~31% untalented) with a CL rotation, but the damage increase is there for sure.

 

• Binkenstein

It takes the total damage, and divides by the total time of the spells cast.
One thing most people forget is that a lower dps may end up with more damage delt over the course of the fight, depending on how long it goes. Might add in a mana pool variable so you can compare this too. So assuming you are lucky with Clearcasts you'll do more damage, but unlucky you'll do less. (need to get 5 out of 8 CL's on a clearcast to beat LB spam for efficency).

I'll tidy it up and upload it later. Busy at work too (taken me most of an hour to post this >.<)

 

Dicho

I have no doubt that the CL,FS,LB rotation is mana inefficient, but that just isnt the point for me anymore.
Again I have to say that once you have that good gear, and is in a shadow priest group(and spend mana pots ofc, but I would assume that goes without saying), mana really isnt an issue.

If I get invited to a raid to do dps, and I end the fight with ~70% mana knowing I could have done more dmg having spent more mana, I would consider myself a failure.

 

Voltan

I agree with you Dicho. Mana has almost never been a concern/issue for me, I can pretty much go balls to the wall for an entire fight without ever going OOM.

The point I was trying to make in the part you quoted from my post, was the fact that trying to fit CL&FS into a rotation could lead to a reduction in DPS due to the difficulty of 'threading' in FS&CL.
To achieve the DPS the spreadsheet gave us, would require CL being cast every CD, and FS being re-applied as soon as the dot portion is finished (so it is always up), with all other time in the 58.5sec rotation be filled with LB. However, due to GCD, CD and cast time on these spells, there are going to be some small gaps (.5 seconds, growing to 1, then 1.5 seconds) where it is inneficient to wait for CL to CD, or the FS dot portion to run down before re-applying, however casting a lightning bolt first, results in 1.5secs where there is no FS active, or reduces the amount of CL casts you can do in a given fight. I have yet to map out casting rotations yet to see the severity of the situation, but I have a feeling it is going to be something similar to the problem hunters have with threading there shots.

 

Dicho

Aye, moving away from the mana concern, the actual rotation is helluva tricksy.

This is one place our dear Dr. Boom is quite handy, as you can get to work on a decent rotation on him. The problem atleast as I see it is that with facturing in latency in raids and the use of stopcasting macros, the whole issue of weaving spells in between each other becomes far more complex. A rotation that works in the relatively lag-free enviroment of Dr. Boom might very well not function in a slightly more choppy raid instance enviroment.

Still, it would be fun to work with, as it atleast would a little more skill to elemental raiding then mindlessly spamming LB/CL whenever it is up

 

Rebaseke

I was wondering with all the dps and cycle talk here, has anyone made a spreadsheet that shows the estimated comparative values of spellcrit to haste to damage (next 1 damage = x spellcrit = y spellhaste) with editable boxes for current stats and certain items (lightning capacitor, shiffars nexus horn, sextant of the unstable currents etc).

This would have to be based on purely statistical calculations probably, but i think it would give a reasonable way to compare upgrades to your current gear.

I'm trying to get something done myself but it will probably take time since theres a lot of things to take into consideration.

 

• Binkenstein

Haste is something I'm working into the item comparitor atm.

 

Rebaseke

Yeah, i found the spots for crit rating to damage comparison, so looking forward to the haste rating implement! Let us know when you're done!

 

• Binkenstein

Ok, the latest upload (dated 01/07/07 - that's first of July for you American types) has Haste functionality built in, but I haven't added any items in with haste rating yet :p
This is mostly due to realising that my mp5 calculations were a little bit off (well, the value has gone down to about a fifth of what it was previously) because I was just calculating the amount healed by the cost, and not actually looking at the whole timeperiod thing correctly. Now works out how many casts you can do while regening for one cast, then takes 1/# * cast, then divide by co-eff to see what the heal/dmg 1mp5 is worth (then multiplies by the respective valuation).

Planning to get back to add in more items, and am halfway adding in a function to add in the gem stats based on a DEP/HEP preference.

One of these days I'll make a submissions template too, so rather than relying on me to add stuff in, you guys can write it up yourselves, send it to me, and I can C&P it in.

 

Kegsta

Hey, nice work on the spreadsheets, I didn't get to try it out fully as 1/2 of my gear isn't listed and I don't really feel the needs to add them myself currently. (Gladiator’s gear, belt of ruination)

Anyway I was wondering about +crit rating vs. +Spell damage, for a while now I’ve been sitting around 37% crit buffed and just putting everything into +Damage. However this week I finally got The Lightning Capacitor, and changed my Meta gem to the +3% increased crit damage one (which gives Elemental Shams 209% damage crits). I'm also 1 piece away from the cyclone 4 piece, I currently don't have Shiffar's or Sextant, but they are quite obtainable.

For a shaman with this specific gear they get the following from a crit.
Elemental Focus (60% mana cost reduction)
+300? Damage from the lightning capacitor.
+109% damage on normal hit
11% chance for 15 seconds of -270 mana cost of spells.
20% chance for +190/225 damage for 15 seconds (45 sec cool down)

With all of this stuff I’m wondering if I should try and up my crit rate more, at the cost of +damage, I’m currently using Icon of the silver crescent as my second trinket, but I'm starting to think Sextant or nexus-horn would be better.

All my red slots are currently using +9 damage gems, I'm also considering changing these to +4 crit +5 damage.

Also has anyone tried Shiffar's + Sextant, apparantly there cooldowns are not linked and your looking at some seriously good uptime on the procs having both of those equipped at once.

 

Rebaseke

I found a mistake in your spreadsheet. On the Ele DEP tab, the average hit inc. crit values are wrong. At least for me (I'm using OpenOffice). The crit values in the stats page that the function relies on are already given in a percentage (e.g. 20% is 0.2 for calculations) and that value is divided by another 100 in the function, giving, at least for me, a 100 times reduction in the crit value. For example the number i got was 1713 average hit and 1720 average hit inc. crit. After i removed the division by 100 i got 1713 average hit and 2389 average hit inc. crit which seems a bit better

I've also tried to tailor the Lightning Capacitor trinket into the fucntions, with pretty good success. If you have time you could make an extra checkbox somewhere that would give the numbers with/without LC trinket. There are also other trinkets that would be nice to compare in the spreadsheet, but i guess it will take some time to get them implemented in a fairly accurate way with all the hidden cooldowns etc.

edit1: I saw that you have added the LC under the trinket section, but it doesn't seem to affect any of the functions.

edit2: Looking at the function, i started wondering if the Lightning Bolt from the LC trinket crits at the base rate or is the crit rate affected by your talents. Has anyone done some testing on this?

edit3: I don't really understand what you've done with the haste rating, can't you view it as 1% haste rating gives 101 casts instead of 100, dividing the extra damage of that 1 spell over the first 100, getting the damage for 1 spell, and then dividing that number by the haste rating?

edit4: Also hit rating could be tailored into the damage functions, giving an even more accurate picture of the values.

edit5: The rating conversions could be done with slightly more accuracy too, instead of dividing by 22.1, which gave only 0.02% error for me, you could modify the number with 14*82/52 for crit rating and 8*82/52 for hit rating, i still have to figure out if the base modifier for haste rating is 13.33 as listed on wowwiki or if its 13.33 (40/3)
I am a greedy bastard, aren't I!

 

• Binkenstein

Fixed! (Part of the reason I put these things up, as I miss stuff, and resto works differently so thats ok too
=(750/(((1/Crit)*'Ele DEP'!E13)*3))/'Ele DEP'!A22 <-- my formula

Takes the average damage from a LC proc (750), and divides it by 1/crit% * cast time (to find the number of casts needed to generate 1 proc) * 3, and then divides that by the +dmg co-efficent to get the +dmg equivalence of the trinket.

The Crit cell reference is to the total crit % on the stats page, which includes gear/talents/int
I looked at it that 1% haste means that rather than dividing average hit by 2, we divide by 1.98 (2*0.99 = 1.98), which of course means that for 200 seconds, you get 101.0101 (repeating) hits rather than 100.

However, looking at it, I think I did some odd dps increase calc, and your 1/x casts thing makes more sense.

I'll add hit into the dmg calculation at some point (so much time, so little to do. No, wait, reverse that), and the more accurate rating values (i took them from that value thread that I have bookmarked at home)

 

Rebaseke

I don't think i can say that i understand what you did with the LC damage value formula. What does the cast time have to do with number of casts? Shouldn't time only be considered in DPS formulas? And why are you using the lightning bolts base damage coefficient (A22) instead of the talent and crit modified one (A25)? The number of casts per proc should be 3/crit%, 3 from the fact that it discharges after 3 crits.

I calculated the value of the LC trinket a bit differently, considering that it adds 250*(1+(A24*($Stats.D9+3%))) damage on every critical strike, i just put it in the critical strike bonus cell formula. But now looking at it i rememberd that the proc isnt affected by the 100% crit increase talent and crits for 150% of the original damage so i think 250*(1+(0,5*($Stats.D9+3%))) would be accurate. A24 was the crit bonus cell and $stats.d9 is the base critical strike chance cell. The extra 3% is from ToW. So the A17 cell formula on Ele DEP tab is =A16*(0,5+$Talents.P17)+250*(1+(0,5*($Stats.D9+3%))) for me.

Looking at the LC trinket this way, you get the damage bonus per crit, then just multiply it by your crit chance and you get the damage added per spell, and then you can divide that by the damage coefficient, giving you the LC-s value in +spelldamage. Then i get 250*(1+(0,5*($Stats.D9+3%)))*$Stats.E9/A25

And i can't help but notice that 750/(1/crit) is 750*crit and i dont think you need all those parentheses there since it's only multiplication and division.

And now i noticed the division by 100 in the dmg per 1 dmg cell too (Ele DEP A25)

Also you could add the modified damage coefficients for chain lightning and all the shocks. I think it would give a better overview.

And seeing as you don't seem to have too much time i can ofcourse help you out with some of the stuff. Gimme a PM if you need any help.

 

• Binkenstein

Ah, yes. Cast time is redundant, and once that is removed it should work out better.

I take 1/crit to work out the average number of casts that would generate 1 crit (so 33% crit would be 9 casts to build the three charges).

Divide the average damage by that number of casts, divide by dmg co-eff for LB, and damage equiv is worked out.

Also, I'm not even remotely looking at CL or shocks. Too complex, and LB is our "main nuke".

Now that I have some time, I'll reply to other stuff.

Using the unmodified LB co-eff as you never use a modified one. Talents never affect the ccoefficients, except in the case of Mage Fireball/Frostbolt talents. I'm using this to take the actual damage, and convert it into a +dmg figure.

Crit dmg bonus is not going to enter in to it, as you'll get the same damage bonus from the trinket with or without EF. However, the comparison to dmg probably should have some crit reversal on it.

If you want, make some changes and flick me a copy of your update file (mark any changes with red text/background for easy reference).

Update! All the Kara loots added (except trash). Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK to come

 

• Binkenstein

Taking a detour atm to add in some more gem/enchant fucntionality with the item selector on the front page. Should be able to end up at actual full enchant stats after this.

 

Phlis

I was recently looking at the armory to check out upgrades, and was adding somethings up. Can someone check my math for me, I'm wondering if this is correct:
Back: Royal Cloak of the Sunstriders - 27Sta, 22Int, 44Dam
Chest: Skyshatter Breastplate - 42Sta, 41Int, 17Hit, 27Crit, 62Dam, 7mp5, 1b 2y(5Dam)
Feet: Boots of Oceanic Fury - 28Sta, 36Int, 26Crit, 55Dam
Finger1: Ring of Captured Storms - 19Hit, 29Crit, 42Dam
Finger2: Band of Eternity - 25Sta, 23Int, 22Crit, 32Dam
Hands: Skyshatter Gauntlets - 30Sta, 31Int, 19Hit, 26Crit, 46Dam, 1y(2dam)
Head: Skyshatter Headguard - 42Sta, 37Int, 36crit, 62Dam, 8mp5 1m 1b(5Dam)
Legs: Skyshatter Leggaurds - 40Stam, 42Int, 20Hit, 29Crit, 62 Dam, 11mp5, 1y(2Dam)
Main Hand: The Maelstrom's Fury - 33Sta, 21Int, 22Crit, 236Dam
Neck: The Sun King's Talisman - 22Sta, 16 Int, 24Crit, 41Dam
Shield: Antonidas's Aegis of Rapt Concentration - 28Sta, 20Int, 20Crit, 42Dam
Relic: Totem of Ancestral Guidance - 85Dam
Shoulder: Skyshatter Mantle - 30Sta, 31Int, 11Hit, 27Crit, 46dam, 4mp5 1b 1y(4Dam)
Trinket1: Sextant of Unstable Currents - 40crit
Trinket2: Xi'ri's Gift - 32Spell Crit
Waist: Flashfire Girdle - 27Sta, 26Int, 18Crit, 37Haste, 44Dam
Wrist: Bands of the Coming Storm - 28Sta, 28Int, 21crit, 34Dam
Skyshatter Set: 15mp5, 35Crit, 45Dam, 5%Dam
Blue Gems: 18Dam, 21Sta - Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst(6Dam, 7Stam)x3
Yellow Gems: 25Crit, 30Dam - Potent Pyrestone(5crit, 5Dam)x5
Meta: Destructive Skyfire Diamond - 14Crit
Socket Bonus: 18Dam
Enchant Chest: Restore Mana Prime - 6mp5
Enchant Feet: Fortitude - 12Sta
Enchant Hands: Spellpower - 20Dam
Enchant Head: Sha'tar Glyph - 22Dam 14Hit
Enchant Legs: Mystic Spellthread - 20Stam, 35 Dam
Enchant Weapon: Major Spellpower - 40Dam
Enchant Shield: Intellect - 12Int
Enchant Shoulder: Aldor Greater Inscription of Discipline - 18Dam 10Crit
Enchant Wrist: Spellpower - 15Dam

And then:

Buffs:
Spi +50Spi +Spi*0.1Dam
Int +40Int
Mark +16Stam +16Int +16Spi
Kings +1.1*Sta +1.1*int +1.1*Spi
Wrath of Air +101Dam
Adapts Elixir +24Dam +24crit

My totals for Int, Damage and Crit:

INT = (109+22+41+36+23+21+27+42+21+16+20+31+26+28+12+40+16)*1.1=584.1
SPI = (122+50+16)*1.1=206.8
DAM = 44+62+55+42+32+46+62+62+236+41+42+85+46+44+34+45+18+30+18+20+22+35+40+18+15+101+24+0. 1*SPI=1340
CRIT = 27+26+29+22+26+36+29+22+24+20+27+40+32+18+21+35+25+14+10+24=23.05+8.34(INT/70)=31.39+14=45.39
Did I add this up correctly? 45.39% crit? Give me a moonkin druid and I hit 50%?

 

f1reburn

Binky, I've been trying to download the spreadsheets in your signature multiple times over the last few weeks, trying different browsers, different safety settings, etc, to no avail. As others have clearly managed to try them, is there something I could be missing?