• Binkenstein

Haven't had a chance to re-do the calcs yet. Added something in with the last update, but I didn't think it through completely. Been focusing on ShamSpells atm. Bare in mind that ShamStats has been updated to 2.3 values, which has change how the stats scale.
Good point. *fixes*
2.04% of 1000 dps is more than 2.04% of 600 dps. Funny that.

 

BlueGlyph

Btw, Binkenstein, you should add [Hammer of Judgement] to your spreadsheet.

Also, I noticed that Incription of the Orb, does not have any stats listed (13 spell crit rating)

 

Benjaimn

This is a very good point. Even if the changes go live I feel its worth 3-8% loss of damage being less threat sensitive and freeing up consumables for a higher use of destruction potions might close to canceling out the 3-8% nerf of damage.

One other thing I was thinking about is because of the change to elemental focus would switching out crit/dmg gems into pure dmg gems to get to the "sweet spot" of crit to maximize the mana return of elemental focus and giving you more +dmg help maximize our damage for 2.3?

 

Zure

I urge you to use a spreadsheet to find out how much spell haste you need to make chain ilghtning not a dps improvement over lightning bolt. Report back with your findings.

Regarding 2 shadow priest, that's just not common. Of course if you have some odd group set up completely built around you, it's possible to do 3/1 currently without regen consumbles, but based on this thread, and statements like, "mana is not a problem for the raiding shaman" I have to conclude that those crying nerf are just deluded.

 

• Binkenstein

Done

Yep, with my planned kara/heroic gear 9 dmg > 5 Dmg 4 Crit

 

Shade

I mostly PvP, and I am wondering if the overall changes are a buff or a nerf to elemental shamans in arenas. I'll accept the baseline 3-5% LB damage nerf for PvE shamans in ~1100 spelldamage gear.. but Arena shamans might be maxing out at 950 spelldamage or so.

The key here is the doubled efficacy of lightning overload. LO is currently basically the same as 5% "crit", except that LO procs bypass the damage reduction from resilience. With the 2.3 changes, 40/0/21 shamans are getting twice as much of their "crit" damage past resilience reduction. Also, the clearcasting changes and mana reduction may be a significant factor in arenas, where elemental shamans can run out of mana quickly.

(Resto and enhancement are getting huge PvP buffs, which I think everyone agrees on.)

The question is, does getting 2x LO effect outweigh the reduced scaling from spelldamage in PvP? (Not to mention that PvP shamans have less spelldamage to begin with.)

 

Nez

This whole nerf smells like not needed healers, after their add is dead, turning into half dpsers, it works for elemental being a healer in several fights so why not the other way around. The only difference is that resto shamans didn't get nerfed because elemental needed the ability to heal.

Threat issues could've been solved without reducing our dps, mana tide would've solved our mana problems.

Personally I would consider these changes a buff for pvp.
20% means on average LO procs on your 3rd lightning bolt.

 

tufy

Yup, it seems Blizzard is actually trying to hybridize us. A good thing, if you ask me. To be completely honest, other than DPS nerf, the notes imo actually look really promissing.

Well, I look at it differently - I'm losing damage at will - i.e., control over my burst. How much this will affect arenas and whether loose LOs can make up for it, we'll see once it's tried in action.

PvE? The DPS loss is bad, of course. However, given that I have no mana issues now and that mana efficiency / restoration is getting buffed in 2.3, I've been thinking of dropping my crit gems and replacing them with pure +dmg, along with "purer" items - since itemvalue for +dmg is lower, I should be able to make up for some of the lost DPS.

 

Chemdog

Well, hopefully dmg has a slightly increased weight in Bink's spreadsheets along with the decrease in mp5 weight but the top end gear is already pretty obvious since itemization is so limited. Especially for someone like myself who has vowed not to wear any gear that isn't mail - I'm a shaman, damnit, and I'll dress like it. Unfortunately, hit isn't really an option to switch to since we're all pretty much hit capped as is. Perhaps I'll respec and consider dropping some points from Unrelenting Storms and putting some points elsewhere like Call of Flame (<3 Searing Totem - I never realized how much damage that thing does). BTW, does Call of Flame effect Fire Elemental?

 

BlueGlyph

Is everyone just using crit for the mana part of it? What about the DPS part?

With spell dmg giving less benefit/spell. Crit will still give the same relative increase in DPS as before.

 

Daidalos

Thats true but spell was significantly better for dps before than crit. For example in 2.2 with a pure LB rotation and 1050 (including totem and relic) base spell dmg and 37% crit 1% crit was worth about 12-13 spell dmg. If you look at itemization of gems for example you see that you are getting such a tiny fractino of a crit but like 6 spell dmg making the pure spell dmg gems way way better. This will shift it so crit will be better for dps but not enough so that pure spell dmg gems are not better than crit/dmg gems. I haven't done my conversion calcuations for 2.3 yet but the change in coefficient won't make crit 2x better.

 

pickles133

Hi guys, quick question. Currently I'm raiding SSC/TK and I was curious about the spell dmg vs spell crit. I currently stack spell damage with enough crit to get me by in fights (along with a shadow priest and chain chugging) and I primarily use a pure lightning bolt spam with 3 LB/1 CL when I have mana to spare at the end of a fight. I know overall spell damage will overtake spell crit point per point on single spell spams. I was curious if anyone has worked out if it was possible to get enough crit to sustain a LB+CL rotation (with an SP of course...I don't see it remotely feasible otherwise) and if that would make up for the spell dmg lost because you converted those points into spell crit.

 

Torrential

I looked at all kinds of cirt/dmg changes when the 2.3 stuff was announced. I think the thing people are forgetting is that with the Lightning Capacitor +crit directly translates to +damage. Even at pretty low crit rate (given that shaman get 14% crit from talents and totem) the LC provides more +damage than any trinket pre BT/Hyjal (And maybe after, I've one minimal looking into that leve).

If you have a LC (which you should!) you need to be sure and add the value of +damage you get from it for adding +crit.

Now it may turn out that even with that consideration +damage gear > +damage and +crit gems or gear. It's just something you should consider.

 

BlueGlyph

1% crit is about 3.3 DPS from the LC trinket. This means LC trinket is worth about 120-130 DPS which I doubt you will any trinket worthy of. Assuming it includes the Lightning Bolt crit talents, otherwise it's "only" ~100 DPS.

 

Torrential

I haven't tested myself, or seen anywhere about whether or not the 11% from talents counts. I would bet heavily against it. I am, however, convinced by anecdotal evidence that your character pane crit % (with oomkin, totem, buffs etc.) effects it's crit chance.

A shaman is the worst class to test with since the LC proc is "Lightning Bolt". Using Arcane mages with varying crit% would be the way to go.

 

pickles133

I'm actually also really curious if anyone has graphed out the dps of a pure lightning bolt spam on a scale of spell dmg vs spell crit without external factors (like TLC) for patch 2.2. If not, I might take a crack at it though I won't make promises that my math will be 100% spot on. I'm relatively new to the theory side of all this and might leave out a few coefficients.

 

Mirranda

Yes, that it does.

In terms of what you said about searing totem, yes, indeed it does actually do quite a bit of damage, but I'm assuming that if you're using searing totem, you're not specced Totem of Wrath?

I don't really get a chance to use it since I'm always keeping ToW down.

 

Quasi

I think you mean the Lightning Capacitor adds roughly 100-115 +dmg and approximately 50-60 dps in the hands of a Shaman. This could be higher or lower depending on crit %, but I dont believe it accounts for that much DPS.

 

BlueGlyph

Just gonna take som quick maths. Average damage ~750. Assuming 40% crit (counting talents). Bonus dmg from crit is: 300. Making average total 1150. With 40% crit it will proc once every 7.5 bolt or 13th second. ~90 DPS. ok not really that much... I just watched how much 1% crit affected the damage increase in Dr Damage addon, and then thought it scaled linear, which it apperently didn't. With 25% crit (assuming talents doesn't count). It becomes about ~70 DPS.

And yes, I meant damage in my first post

 

Zure

Proper quick math:

0.2 latency
LB spam for 2.2
3LB/1CL cycle for 2.3

Damage per TLC bolt is 750*(1+spell crit/2)*(.84+spell hit)

Let's assume 29% crit chance (40% minus the two lightning bolt only talents, which do not effect TLC), and 15% hit to nature spells, of which TLCs bolt is one, for a total of 850 damage per TLC proc, or 283 average damage per crit.

2.2
Seconds per attack is 1.06 / 2.20 = .48
with a 40% crit rate on lightning bolts, 54.41 dps

2.3
Attacks per second is 1.25 / 2.08 = .60

with a 40% crit rate on lightning bolts, 68.03 dps

all of this is before the inherent 6% partial resists from +3 mobs.

Edit: updated to reflect spell hit talents applying to TLC. Thanks to Blueglyph for pointing that out to me.

 

BlueGlyph

Only thing you added was basically hit and latency, which should be close to 0 in most cases. I mean, how many Shamans are not hit capped? Maybe some latency for some people, but if you use /stopcasting macro, it shouldn't be that much as 200. I usually are just below 100 ms anyway.

Then you can count in some spell haste for having bloodlust up ~7% of the time. Assuming 10 min enrage boss fight which is the default. And maybe 3-4% from gear.

But I will admit you beat me in maths :P

 

• Binkenstein

With the LO change i'ts ~ 116 +dmg with 36% crit for LB
Might go make one of those.

 

Quasi

Even with stopcast macros I notice I screw up on casts due to spell pushback (usually when taking aoe dmg). If I am perfect in casts I am sure I can drop the avg 200 ms I see in game lower. Nothing upsets me more than accidentally cancelling a cast in the quartz red zone because the cast gets pushed back to right before it. In the end I think it still averages out to about .2 seconds of lag per cast using the macros.

 

Zure

Good point about Bloodlust. I usually leave it out, because as you said, its benefit varies based on the length of the encounter.

I have a hard time getting below 0.2 seconds added to every cast in a raid setting. I just assume that to be the long run average per cast. I've actually never seen anyone get below 0.1X for a sustained period of time without clipping casts.

 

BlueGlyph

Spell pushback etc will lower the damage the same percent on the regular Lightning Bolt spam, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

And atleast I think it's pretty easy to come close to no noticeable lag with /stopcasting macros and Quartz. And I don't know about you, but me and my friends average ping seem to be 50-100ms. I don't see where everyone get the 200 ms from.

But no matter what, the LC trinket have quite a big impact on how the change will affect us. Since LO procs more, our relative crit will be higher. That something you also need to add into the calcuation. Chance for charge = spell crit+(0,0625*spell crit). After patch it will be a bit higher.