One thing we'll probably have to test when the 2.3 PTR is released.
Along with how many CC charges we can stack.
When they posted the 2.3 changes they did say that it will be a longevity boost except in cases of extremely high crit.
What does extremely high crit mean? 50% or above? It leads me to believe the clearcasts will not be stackable because the only time it can be a nerf is when you're highly likely to have crit streaks, somewhere between 33 and 50%.
Firstly, the Crit v Damage comparison I did the other day. As you can see, as you add more and more crit, the extra +dmg to equal the damage output of an additional 1% crit gets lower and lower.
Secondly, the Clearcasting change. If I add in the chance to proc of LO, the "nerf point" goes to 73% crit.
When you say "there is also ways to track LO, not failsafe, but there are some ways" what are you referring to?
these are the questions that keep me up at night
If you are just interested of howmany percents of your total damage, you can just do some maths. But for addon tracking there are 3 ways to do it.
1. Count the total number of bolts cast on the mob and the number of bolts that hit him. The difference is the number of LO procs.
2. Count if more than one bolt hits the mob within a small time interval.
3. Check if more than one bolt is hitting the mob after every single cast.
Some of these ways are good in some situations, some are good in others. They all work quite good, but not perfect.
If you are intrested in seeing them, you can always download my addon "Shaman Friend" on Curse.
Bink - why is the dmg value per crit not linear for a given +dmg? I plotted something at home that came out fairly linear for all dmg vs crit for a given +dmg. I don't doubt that I might have made a mistake, I'd just like to see where. Any chance you can post your calculations?
Bink - why is the dmg value per crit not linear for a given +dmg? I plotted something at home that came out fairly linear for all dmg vs crit for a given +dmg. I don't doubt that I might have made a mistake, I'd just like to see where. Any chance you can post your calculations?
Firstly, the Crit v Damage comparison I did the other day. As you can see, as you add more and more crit, the extra +dmg to equal the damage output of an additional 1% crit gets lower and lower
DPS vs crit is a linear increase however I don't think thats what hes graphing. Hes graphing +dmg vs+crit and resulting dps increase. Basically at high crit lvls you need a small amount of of +dmg to equal 1 crit% measured by increase in DPS.
Another way of saying this is simply as crit increases +dmg becomes better in terms of dps/crit vs dps/dmg. The converse is true as well. Stacking +dmg increases the dps effect of crit. (assuming you aren't at 100% I guess)
I understand that the higher your +dmg is, the less dmg you need to equal the dmg output of 1% crit. If I do 1000 dmg at 0% crit, 1% crit is 10 dmg, but at 2000 dmg and 0% crit, 1% crit is 20 dmg.
What I'm not understanding is why the dmg value (or DEP from his spreadsheets) is not equal for all %crit of a given +dmg. For example, if I do 1000 dmg at 0% crit, then 1% crit increase should equal 1010 dmg. If I'm doing 1500 dmg at 50% crit, then 1% crit increase should equal 1510 dmg. It still causes 10 more dmg (the same as +14 dmg on gear) for the same increase in crit %. Unless I'm leaving something out.
EDIT: He uses DEP to rate gear based on stats and everything is based on damage equivalency. So crit has some damage equivalent, similar to the values in the graph above.
I understand that the higher your +dmg is, the less dmg you need to equal the dmg output of 1% crit. What I'm not understanding is why the dmg value (or DEP from his spreadsheets) is not equal for all %crit of a given +dmg.
For example, if I do 1000 dmg at 0% crit, then 1% crit increase should equal 1010 dmg. If I'm doing 1500 dmg at 50% crit, then 1% crit increase should equal 1510 dmg. It still causes 10 more dmg (the same as +14 dmg on gear) for the same increase in crit %. Unless I'm leaving something out.
I actually haven't looked at his spreedsheets but I assume DEP is not damage/dps equivalents but +dmg equivalents. So if you understand how things scale then you see that as crit would go up its DEP would go down.
Ah, I figured out my error. I wasn't taking into account the crit dmg done by increases in spell dmg. From my 1000 dmg LB example above:
An extra 10 dmg done @ 0% crit requires an additional base 10 dmg, or 10/.714= +14 spell dmg from gear.
An extra 10 dmg done @ 50% crit requires an additional base 6.7 dmg, or 6.7/.714= +9.4 spell dmg from gear.
Ah ok I was just assuming you meant damage done but +dmg needed. Yeah +dmg scales up since you multiply by your current crit rate, Thats precisely why +dmg is usually better than crit for the same item values.
DPS vs crit is a linear increase however I don't think thats what hes graphing. Hes graphing +dmg vs+crit and resulting dps increase. Basically at high crit lvls you need a small amount of of +dmg to equal 1 crit% measured by increase in DPS.
Another way of saying this is simply as crit increases +dmg becomes better in terms of dps/crit vs dps/dmg. The converse is true as well. Stacking +dmg increases the dps effect of crit. (assuming you aren't at 100% I guess)
It's saying "I have X dmg and Y Crit. How much extra dmg would equate to the dps increase from another 1% crit).
Originally Posted by Chemdog
EDIT: He uses DEP to rate gear based on stats and everything is based on damage equivalency. So crit has some damage equivalent, similar to the values in the graph above.
Originally Posted by Daidalos
I actually haven't looked at his spreedsheets but I assume DEP is not damage/dps equivalents but +dmg equivalents. So if you understand how things scale then you see that as crit would go up its DEP would go down.
EDIT: so it isn't dps gain its +dmg equiv right?
it's dps gain, as a dmg equiv would mean backwards calculating everything to dmg, making it more complex.
Originally Posted by Chemdog
Ah, I figured out my error. I wasn't taking into account the crit dmg done by increases in spell dmg. From my 1000 dmg LB example above:
An extra 10 dmg done @ 0% crit requires an additional base 10 dmg, or 10/.714= +14 spell dmg from gear.
An extra 10 dmg done @ 50% crit requires an additional base 6.7 dmg, or 6.7/.714= +9.4 spell dmg from gear.
dmg = +dmg stat. Damage = damage. Probably easier to make the distinction that way. Don't forget that concussion adds to +dmg as well, and the 1.25 modifier from LO.
it's dps gain, as a dmg equiv would mean backwards calculating everything to dmg, making it more complex.
Ah I guess I was just assuming your spread sheet was like mine. I display convert crit->+dmg, and dmg->crit, as well as haste->+dmg. For given spells. I guess converting to straight damage woulda been easier but hey the math was fun and I just find it easier to that haste is the equiv to 17+dmg with my gear and crit is 12 dmg so I find it easier to compare items I just convert the crit and haste to +dmg and add up the +dmg it would be.
I did that once, but I found it a bit... annoying.
Plus we can see the actual benefit of +dmg in terms of dps gains.
Yeah I show the resulting dps as well but I found the +dmg conversions handy for like comparing say the cloth belt off supmreus vs flashfire girdle. where they have similar haste but one has crit but less dmg. convert the crit ->+dmg and just add up totals and you're done.
dmg = +dmg stat. Damage = damage. Probably easier to make the distinction that way. Don't forget that concussion adds to +dmg as well, and the 1.25 modifier from LO.
I thought the LO modifier was 1.12 (assuming self proccing no diminishing returns) in 2.3. And I did forget about concussion. Where do those modifiers go? Concussion goes to total damage (base + dmg) or just base damage? I'm guessing LO goes to total damage.
EDIT: Here's a little bonus I forgot to mention (read it last night and it slipped my mind this morning). New caster meta gem: 12 crit rating, 3% crit dmg. The US forums say 12%, but I imagined that sounded high. Then the Euro forums had 12 crit rating. I'm going with option B as more likely.
If you are just interested of howmany percents of your total damage, you can just do some maths. But for addon tracking there are 3 ways to do it.
1. Count the total number of bolts cast on the mob and the number of bolts that hit him. The difference is the number of LO procs.
2. Count if more than one bolt hits the mob within a small time interval.
3. Check if more than one bolt is hitting the mob after every single cast.
Some of these ways are good in some situations, some are good in others. They all work quite good, but not perfect.
If you are intrested in seeing them, you can always download my addon "Shaman Friend" on Curse.
I downloaded Shaman Friend last night. I'm guessing you use the # of bolts to hit in a small time interval. The problem with that is you end up tying an LO proc to the next LB, not the previous one. Not that it's a huge issue, but it does make mistakes.
And sometimes, it incorrectly names an LO when a mob starts at max range and then starts running at me, so I cast one that takes a long time to get there and a second one that gets there quickly because he's no longer at max range. That one is a bit more of a kicker.
There are some details we will not know about Lightning Overload (LO) until the release of 2.3 to the PTR.
Current speculation has two (or three) different models for LO:
One where each LO proc can proc another LO proc at full(half of original spell) strength. This model works out to a 1.25 multiplier for damage.
Another model where each LO proc is a proc of the previous LO. THis means each LO proc is half the strength of the previous proc. This model works out to a 1.11111 multiplier for damage.
The third model is one where LO cannot proc itself. This works out to a 1.1 multiplier for damage.
Determining which model Blizzard has implemented shouldn't be hard once the PTR goes live.
I thought the LO modifier was 1.12 (assuming self proccing no diminishing returns) in 2.3. And I did forget about concussion. Where do those modifiers go? Concussion goes to total damage (base + dmg) or just base damage? I'm guessing LO goes to total damage.
EDIT: Here's a little bonus I forgot to mention (read it last night and it slipped my mind this morning). New caster meta gem: 12 crit rating, 3% crit dmg. The US forums say 12%, but I imagined that sounded high. Then the Euro forums had 12 crit rating. I'm going with option B as more likely.
Ops, yeah, it's 1.125. Quick check of the sheets confirms that I typo'd it here only
And yes, added that meta in for the next version (up tomorrow hopefully)
Originally Posted by Jini
There are some details we will not know about Lightning Overload (LO) until the release of 2.3 to the PTR.
Current speculation has two (or three) different models for LO:
One where each LO proc can proc another LO proc at full(half of original spell) strength. This model works out to a 1.25 multiplier for damage.
Another model where each LO proc is a proc of the previous LO. THis means each LO proc is half the strength of the previous proc. This model works out to a 1.11111 multiplier for damage.
The third model is one where LO cannot proc itself. This works out to a 1.1 multiplier for damage.
Determining which model Blizzard has implemented shouldn't be hard once the PTR goes live.
Current assumption based on current behaviour and "patch" notes so far are as follows:
LO Procs are Lightning Bolts at half strength.
A 20% chance to proc works out to be a 25% for a proc due to LO's procing LO's
This means the current assumption is that LO is a 1.125 modifier on damage output from LB/CL.
I thought I saw a blue post on the forums somewhere saying something about a 1.111... modifier for LO. Although he might have just been commenting on someones math rather than stating 'the way it is'.
I just got Prism of Inner Calm tried it last night on Void Reaver and was a bit disappointed i expected more from it... i had to stop the dps at some point because i was getting over the tanks on omen and even with my agro so high i ended number 9 on the dmg meter after mages, warlocks, rogues. Even on trash i was able to pull agro off tanks i know that normaly it should reduce the agro by 630 for every crit but tbh i didnt felt any difference with or without it only in my dps being lower slitely and that maybe because i didnt used my dps trinket, my current gear i have 1002 nature dmg/36% crit unbuffed with the Prism on, normaly in raids i crit between 3.8 and 4k per LB i had an enhancement shaman also in raid.
Atm i use Eye of Magtheridon and Icon of the Silver Crescent/Darkmoon Card: Crusade depending on the situation, i am trying to get TLC but didnt got so lucky.. and the irony makes i went to Kara with my alt(mage), my main was saved already in another instance, and it dropped and even better noone needed it and i got it.. on my alt
Anyway the question was with the 11% lower threat after patch will this trinket still be viable over spell dmg trinkets? i was actualy thinking about doing a nice combo TLC and Prism of Inner Calm but if its useless is it better to go with Eye of Magtheridon instead of Prism after 2.3?
The new metagem might make up for the co-efficient nerf rather a lot, assuming it works the way RED did when it worked on spells. At a 40% crit rate it would be a straight 2.4% damage increase (obviously that then gets multiplied by the boost we receive from lightning overload, so 2.64%).
If you're lucky enough to have a moonkin and get towards 45%+ crit, or you're getting into t6 gear, then even better.
It will be a must-have again, and once again make helms with metagem slots >> helms without metagame slots for us. And tilts the dmg vs crit balance a little further to the crit side.
I thought I saw a blue post on the forums somewhere saying something about a 1.111... modifier for LO. Although he might have just been commenting on someones math rather than stating 'the way it is'.
The 12.5% modifier comes from the X/(1-X) = X + X^2 + X^3 + X^4.... for probabilities. This gives 25%, which we halve for a straight damage bonus.
Originally Posted by RK
The new metagem might make up for the co-efficient nerf rather a lot, assuming it works the way RED did when it worked on spells. At a 40% crit rate it would be a straight 2.4% damage increase (obviously that then gets multiplied by the boost we receive from lightning overload, so 2.64%).
If you're lucky enough to have a moonkin and get towards 45%+ crit, or you're getting into t6 gear, then even better.
It will be a must-have again, and once again make helms with metagem slots >> helms without metagame slots for us. And tilts the dmg vs crit balance a little further to the crit side.
Yeah, it's about twice the "value" of the next best meta.
I just got Prism of Inner Calm tried it last night on Void Reaver and was a bit disappointed i expected more from it... i had to stop the dps at some point because i was getting over the tanks on omen and even with my agro so high i ended number 9 on the dmg meter after mages, warlocks, rogues. Even on trash i was able to pull agro off tanks i know that normaly it should reduce the agro by 630 for every crit but tbh i didnt felt any difference with or without it only in my dps being lower slitely and that maybe because i didnt used my dps trinket, my current gear i have 1002 nature dmg/36% crit unbuffed with the Prism on, normaly in raids i crit between 3.8 and 4k per LB i had an enhancement shaman also in raid.
Atm i use Eye of Magtheridon and Icon of the Silver Crescent/Darkmoon Card: Crusade depending on the situation, i am trying to get TLC but didnt got so lucky.. and the irony makes i went to Kara with my alt(mage), my main was saved already in another instance, and it dropped and even better noone needed it and i got it.. on my alt
Anyway the question was with the 11% lower threat after patch will this trinket still be viable over spell dmg trinkets? i was actualy thinking about doing a nice combo TLC and Prism of Inner Calm but if its useless is it better to go with Eye of Magtheridon instead of Prism after 2.3?
I can't speak on behalf of Prism, but your armory lists you at slightly over 15% hit with ToW down, and because of that you might want to consider dropping Eye of Magtheridon totally. It has a fair amount of passive damage with its equip, but realistically it isn't a spectacular elemental trinket since the proc will see very little mileage. Assuming you're chain-casting LB you will get off 30 casts a minute, and with the unavoidable 1% resist (I'm *pretty* sure Eye of Mag will only proc on total resists and not off the 2-3% level-based partial resists that can't be countered), that would theoretically net 0.3 (total, not partial) resists per minute. This means you will *possibly* average an extra 170 spell damage for 10 seconds over the course 3 minutes (LO procs not withstanding to slightly add to total resist rate), for 5 LB casts. That's realistically more on the proc than Icon/Crusade, but Crusade is passive and Icon will allow for a damage buff on 10 casts every 2 minutes.
It would be preferential to use TLC/Icon(or Crusade), or TLC/Sextant.
(If I did some math wrong, someone point me out on it please. It's early)
Has it been proven that Crusade is better than even just a xi/ri's. Running through all of my wws' I do a fair amount better with a xi'ri's. Guess I'll swing a bit more with the patch perhaps, but I really wasn't impressed with the card.
10/06/07, 12:36 AM
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