Yes but it depends on your gear and spell used.
Assuming LB spam with current 2.2 mechanics.
1056 spell dmg (900+55relic+101wrath)
24 base crit. With talents and totem 38 crit for LB
0 haste
hit capped

1% crit = 12.75 spell dmg
or 22.1 crit rating = 12.75 spell dmg so 1 crit rating = .577 spell dmg

1% haste = 17.19 spell dmg
or 15.75 haste rating = 17.19 spell dmg so 1 haste rating = 1.091 spell dmg


Now since haste does not lower gcd haste does nothing for CL so if you are doing a 3LB/1CL rotation obviously this would lower the value of haste. AS well as if you have more than 3.3% haste and are spamming LB during lust. Additional haste past 3.3% will not increase dps.

Also remember how these values scale.
As these amounts go up the other stats increase in relation (keeping in mind the caveats listed above). So assuming you stack alot of +dmg the gains from crit and haste increase as you stack. The same goes for the other stats. One thing to note is that many shaman have more crit then they should from a dps standpoint (obviously if you need it for mana thats a different issue). With current itemization 1 +dmg is always going to be alot better than 1 crit rating.


This is purely for dps comparison. I think bink factors in mana saved in his calculations but I prefer to do the 2 seperately since when ele I always have a shadow priest. For LB spam I never had any mana problems with our shadow priest and my ele gear is pretty bad (some BT peices but some heroics stuff too. I respec from resto on rare occasions).

EDIT: fixed haste + BL amount

Everyone seems to be reporting multile LO procs off CL, but not LB. Has anyone done some actual testing in 2.2? Not that it matters for much longer anyway.

One more report from PTR: I've specifically been trying to reduce the shock damage using the LO modifier. So far (about 100 shocks fired) not one received reduced damage, while I could regularly reproduce the LO-reduced Lightning Bolt bug. Also, in all this time, not one dual LO proc was recorded.

Well I hope this is a bug, otherwise this is once again a hard nerf to our dps. LO should be able to proc twice, or maybe if the poster is right and it was never able to chain proc, the numbers on LO need to be adjusted upwards.

Crit and haste will be even better in 2.3, right? (More dmg from LO, no lag on casts, spell dmg being less efficient).

And does haste lose it's effect as well when stacking it up to like 10-15%? Or will it be the same (not counting GC-capped).

Ohh, and last time I checked, BL did lower global cooldown.

Edit: Guess I need to learn to read the stickies, but I swear that piece of BL wasn't there last time I checked

It does not. Please see the sticky working theories thread at the top of this forum for the appropriate UI hook that you can use to test this.

I am not sure what you mean by haste loosing its effect. Haste simply gives you x% more casts of LB during that time. So haste doesn't have diminishing returns (1% haste is 1% more spells 15% haste is 15% more spells) If you mean as haste scales up crit and spell dmg are worth more then yes you are correct.

Funnily enough, there's a few theorycraft spreadsheets around that. I have yet to fill out the Stats section regarding generalised comparisons (see link in my sig)

Yeah its how I prefer to compare gear. If anyone wants to see the math for the comparisons I can post more but my example should be close to the average ele gear.

Oh, silly question: how do you get to the 5% haste with BL hits the haste cap?
I work the cap to be 33%

ie: 2 seconds/ 1.5 seconds = 1.33333 or 33% haste.

Oops ya its 3.3% haste.. thats what I get for saying stuff from "memory"

Hmm, correct me if im wrong but haste does have diminishing returns?

This is the math.

New cast time = old cast time / (1 + haste)

so for example to get down to 2,5 sec cast from a 3 sec base cast you need 3/2,5 - 1 = 0,2 haste
to get down to a 2 sec cast from a 3 sec base cast you need 3/2 - 1 = 0,5 haste
so you need 0,2 haste to get the first .5 secs off your cast and 0,3 haste to get the next .5 secs off
to get another .5 off, you need another 0,5 haste (for a total of 1 haste lowering your casttime from 3 sec to 1,5 sec)

So lets say you do a 2 second cast for 1500 damage. That's 750 DPS.
Add 1% haste to that. Your DPS increases to 1500*1,01/2= 757,5 which is a 757,5/750 = 1% dps increase
Add another 1% haste to that. Your DPS increases to 1500*1,02/2 = 765 which is a 765/757,5 = 0,(9900)% dps increase.

So uhh. you always get 7.5 extra DPS for 1% haste but the percentual increase gets smaller.
Okay im confused now. Is this diminishing returns or not?

Uhh considering you need a constant amount of spelldamage to get the same increase in dps and we dont consider that diminishing, then its not diminishing after all.

1% haste is always going to be based on 1 more cast over the period where you'd cast 100.

Looking at the dps increase it scales down as you add more haste, but point for point the increase will still be the same.

Assuming that going from 100% to 101% haste will give the same DPS increase as going from 120% to 121% is wrong, however. Mostly because the first case is 1 cast/100, while the second is 1 cast/120.

Correct. I do not consider this dimishing returns. Scaling however is always something to take into effect while stacking one stat over another.
Spell dmg haste and crit all reduce in the % dps increase as you stack them.
As well as the more you stack of one stat the more the others do in relation.
e.g. 1% crit or haste with 700 spell dmg is alot less than 1% crit or haste with 1300 spell dmg

I'm curious how spell haste interacts with the new changes. With higher LO chance is spell haste good or not? Or no difference? If you're getting more casts, than you should get more LO procs too. The only thing I don't like about spell haste is more haste seems to make using CL not a good choice because of the spell running into GCD.

Well will definitely scale better with spell haste in 2.3. But the problem with CL was also the main reason why I was worried about stacking haste, but because now that we don't need stop casting I'm sure it won't be as big of an issue since we can just spam buttons now.

The interesting part in that post is that "LO is affecting more than one cast" is noted, while "LO only reduces base damage, not spelldamage" is not. Base damage reduction only might thus actually be intended. Wohoo?

Nothing about it consuming CC, but that's probably just an oversight. Or whether or not it's supposed to self proc. I'm still optimistic that the affecting multiple spells is a side effect of trying to implement self procs. I guess we'll see.

I'm more worried about the cooldown on LO. Because it is hurting us both in chain casting and of course it means LO can't proc LO.

Uhh i had 3 LO-s in a row on PTR so the cooldown is less than the cast of LB. The LO proc itself must have a different identifier than LB tho because it has to do no threat and has to do less damage. The fact that LO doesn't proc off itself is probably not a bug and is intended. Im suspecting that there is no cooldown on LO since multiple procs DO happen on CL.

A vague idea about the reason of CL proccing LO multiple times is that if blizzard disables multiple LO procs on CL then LO doesnt proc off CL at all or something like that. Because even tho it can proc off multiple targets with one CL cast. the base procrate is still somehow 20% and the double procrate is very low (4 doubles over ~350 casts) and i didn't see any triples.

Well if LO doesn't proc off itself than these changes add up to a dps nerf for us at 20% values of LO. That's the plain facts right now. We only had it at being an increase in dps when we had it modelled as 25%. At 20% it is roughly a 2% dps loss at 1250 spell damage.

The thing that concerns me is that people have been testing this on the PTR and doing things like casting LB back to back to see what the proc rate of LO is working out to. And from various sources it seems like they are getting back numbers of 13-15%, which makes it a 6% loss, not a 2% loss.

If they fix the half damage LB casts, but change it so we can't chain proc LO, then there will be no effective dps change from the PTR at the moment, as far as I can work it.

Still lower than effective 2.2 dps as well.