Kasi

Have you been able to get a character onto PTR bink? I've not been able to, but from what I've been reading there there is some issue about LO right now really being 20%. For that matter has anyone been able to get on there and do some testing? Just do a combat log, cast LB 100 or 200 times or even more and see how many LB hits actually happen.

 

Rebaseke

By chain proccing you mean procs off consecutive casts or procs off LO itself?

 

Kasi

I assume he means procs off consecutive casts. Because if he meant proccing off itself, that would mean it could proc twice very occasionally which would be a dps upgrade.

 

• Binkenstein

I've got onto the PTR, but aside from a brief check of heroic vendor loot and the obligatory Dr Boom dps test, I haven't been on there much. Still levelling my new shaman (51!), and I think my guildies would get annoyed at me if I spent too much time swanning around on the PTR rather than levelling.
Chain Procs = LB LO LO, or in otherwords, procs off itself

 

Daidalos

Makes me wanna do an all ele WSG or 5v5 somthing on the PTR. I'm sure it would be terrible but might be amusing. Pretty much I've spent most of my time resto doing ZA so far. I haven't done any real dps tests other than dr boom fun like you did.

I had thought I got some chain LO procs when I did Dr Boom but now I think it was just the LO bug on my next LB. I'd just like to see for myself

Also why level another shaman?

 

• Binkenstein

I may be doing a BB ZA test run on the weekend too.

 

Kyuki

Hey,
Guess most folks are tired of hearing "big time lurker, first time poster!" but well, that's the case here too

Anyways, I have not done any math really, but from the tests I've done on the PTRs compared to live, I've seen a DPS increase. Even with the current bugged LO state.

I would definatly belive that the new /stopcasting that works with all spells now will have a great effect all around when it comes down to casters, even those that did stopcasting before (as yours truly), and those that have G15 keyboards or the likes will definately see DPS increases with this change, no matter how you look at it.

I managed to squeeze 1200 DPS with a Elixir and Oil with my relativily standard Elemental gear. (850 spelldmg / 23% crit) and on the live servers I manage around 1100+. 650 ms vs 150 ms, quite big diff.
I would say my samples are not that biggest (600 second etaps), but still.

In my own little twisted mind I would hope that blizzard fixes this LO bug, and make it be able to proc off itself. I could imagine that be abit over the top, and the great burst potential they wanted to tone down would probably be larger, but ah well - one can dream.

Also wanted to stop by and bring a few cheers for everyone that put hard time into testing around on these boards - Thanks.

 

• Binkenstein

Yeah, most of the "DPS" increase is going to be around the new stopcasting "feature"

I had an increase during my Dr Boom test as well, but unfortunately all of my models are Lag Free (ie: the shaman changes are an effective decrease in dps as they stand) rather than taking into account things like that.

 

Totz

DPS is going down in 2.3 it seems, and the better gear u have the worst u are off


Lightning Bolt and Lightning Overload
At the moment we have:
Lightning Bolt: 599-684 dmg (avg ~ 642) which benefits about 90% from spell dmg
Lightning Overload: 5% chance for extra cast of equal dmg

In 2.3 we get:
Lightning Bolt: 599-684 dmg (avg ~ 642) which benefits about 75% from spell dmg
Lightning Overload: 20% chance for extra cast of ½ base dmg (~321)

To calculate what this will mean for our dmg:
Lets say we have +713 spell dmg from gear. (crit chance is not relevant in this ex. but is set to 35%)

This will at the moment give = (642+713*90%)*(1.35) + (642+713*90%)*(1.35)*5% = 1820 avg dmg/LB

In 2.3 the same stats will give = (642+713*75%)*(1.35) + (321+713*75%)*(1.35)*20% = 1820 avg dmg/LB

The 713 +spell dmg was not chosen randomly. If you use a higher number you will lose dmg (=nerf) and a lower number will increase dmg (buff). Considering the buffs available to all shamans in WoW total=246 (the totem=101, food=23, oil=42, flask=80) the calculation above states that if u have more than 467 +spell dmg you will lose dmg. Crit chance will only amplify the loss/gain in dmg (you can check yourself if you dont trust me).

* I have had to estimate the 75% and 90% benefits from +spell dmg by casting LBs in game, but I am fairly sure that they are right, if anything the benefit in 2.3 seems to be closer to 74% for normal LB and 71-72% for overload, which will only make my results more valid.


The changes to LB and LO are the reason for this post. At first glance it sounded great, slightly more dps and way less agro, but like most others I was greatly disappointed. First of all I would like to make clear that I am very much against the nerf in top dmg, its so big a part of the elemental shaman that to remove it is a crime. And sure the change is a buff to our total dmg if we are naked, for my point of view (about 1000 +spell dmg unbuffed) this seems more like a nerf in every way than the promised increase. I even have other players asking me "why are they nerfing ele shamans, they are not overpowered"
To make this as clear as possible the changes scale negatively with gear and give us back our top dmg.
If you think the reduction in agro in any way makes up for the decrease in dmg/dps you are sadly mistaken, letting the overloads be threat less is fine, but let us handle the rest of the agro our selves.


Plz comment..

 

• Binkenstein

Totz.

Please read the rest of the two threads on 2.3.

This is nothing different from what we already know. Especially since we're waiting on the LO hidden debuff fix, and to clarify chain procs and hidden cooldowns.

713 * .75 = 535
(642 + 535) * 1.05 * 1.35 = 1668 per LB
(321 + 535) *1.05 * 1.35 * 0.25 = 269 per LB in LO
total damage in 2.3 = 1937

Doing the same thing for 2.2
611 from dmg (0.857 co-eff not 0.9)
642 + 611 * 1.05 * 1.35 = 1776 per LB
642 + 611 * 1.05 * 1.35 *0.05 = 88 per LB in LO
Total = 1864 in 2.2

Even if we assume that LO is only a 20% chance (can't proc itself) 2.3 shows as 1884 damage per LB, which is still an increase.

 

Kasi

Edit: NM, I think people understand that above around 800ish spell damage, that 20% LO would be a nerf to dps of around 2% or so for raiding shamans.

 

Totz

if 85,7% (=3/3.5) was the old co-eff. would that make the new co-eff more like 71,4% (2.5/3.5)?

 

Kasi

Yes, 85.7 and 71.4% are the two coefficients. Since LB has no extra effect or anything, it is determined solely by cast time.

 

RK

Was about to say "let's stick to t5 level assumptions and not t6" and then I remembered that my raid-buffed spell damage (no improved divine spirit due to no priests with it, grr) is in the 1100 region only because I cannot get a Mindblade or a Talon of the Tempest for love or money. The same goes for my cloak (Moroes and Maulgar give me no love). I'm looking to upgrade those slots from level 70 non-heroics -> Kael'thas and Najentus.

Yeah, I guess 1250 is fair for a shaman in tier 5 kit, raid buffed. Especially taking into account the relic slot, which I tend to forget due to not showing up on the character sheet.

However. Bink- why 75% for 2.3 on your example? Should be 2.5/3.5, 71.43%, right?

EDIT: Holy double Sarnathing, batman.

OK, so at 1250 dmg and 40% crit:

2.3:
2256 average bolt
+357 on average for LO (using the 20% proc rate, no chain procs)

[top] 2613

2.2:
2518 average bolt
+126 on average for LO

2644

Hence 2.3 is a very slight damage nerf to LB spam at tier 5 levels of damage and crit, provided that the half-damage debuff lasting too long is fixed and assuming there are no chain procs. CL will be better, though, so even not taking into account that you might be able to work more CLs into the rotation after 2.3, using some CLs should let you break even on the co-efficient nerf.

If they make LO able to proc itself then 2.3 will be a slight damage buff (the average 2.3 bolt after lightning overload proc would increase by 89 damage using the stats above).

 

• Binkenstein

Yeah, mis-typed that one.

Been doing theorycraft:

2.2 v 2.3 comparison

L = base damage
D = +dmg
C = crit
A = 2.2 co (0.857)
B = 2.3 co (0.714)
O = Concussion (1.05)
C = Crit

Assuming no chain LO procs

2.2 = 1.05 ( LOC + DAOC)
2.3 = 1.1 LOC + 1.2 DBOC

Divide by OC and solve for D

D = 746 +dmg is the "break even" point.

Assuming 25% LO proc in 2.3
2.3 = 1.125 LOC + 1.25 DBOC

Gives something over 6000 (I think)

[edit]Ninja edits eh RK?[/edit]
[edit#2]PS: new ShamStats up as well as beta of "ShamScale", that spell v damage scaling thing I've been working on[/edit#2]

 

Kasi

I have two pieces of T6 gear, that being the trash drop mace and MH ring (which Kara nature ring has more damage anyway). Fully raid buffed with Divine Spirit, food, flask, oil, totem of wrath, etc I have 1346 damage with LB and CL (including 55 from my totem). If you have around 890 or so nature damage unbuffed along with the mech totem, that should get you to the 1250 mark.

Edit: Oops, my numbers are off by 42. I still had the weapon oil buff on. So that makes me have 1304 damage, which means you need about 930 nature damage unbuffed, which you can do with a mix of crafted gear, pvp weapon, and some T 4/5. Not all pieces of T5 are a big damage upgrade. Underbog pants actually beat T5 legs in pure dps.

 

BlueGlyph

I were under the impression that the last reports were LO not chain proccing on PTR. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

• Binkenstein

LO chain procs = increase.
It's the false LO LB casts that are the "nerf" atm.

 

Rebaseke

As i said in my earlier testing post, i did around 500 single casts of Lightning Bolt (4-6 second intervals) and didn't see any double procs so there's nothing for them to change at the moment about that. And i didn't see it in the reported bugs list either so i guess they either aren't aware of this or more likely it is working as intended.

 

Kasi

Oh its definitely being reported on the threads on the PTR realm. They just aren't doing anything about it.

I would disagree with Binkenstein though. Yes the false LO LB casts are part of the nerf atm, but its not the whole story.

LO chain proccing plus LB not getting affected by LO 1 second duration is a definite buff.

What we're getting now is no LO chain procs and LB getting affected by LO's debuff, which is a huge nerf.

What we're likely going to get is for sure fixing this LO affecting LB issue. However even with that fixed, it LO doesn't chain proc (aka LO proccing off LO) than this is a 2% dps nerf at 20% LO values.

However its even more annoying atm, because people on the test realm are testing spamming LB and are getting a LO percentage of around 14%, not 20%. But definitely these "features" are being reported, its just that they aren't doing anything about them.

 

Cabled

I've been on the PTR testing the new change out, they fixed the LO bug with half damage being applied to the next cast, but they also changed LO from 50% base + dmg to just the 50% damage it was assumed to be.

Edit. Forgot to mention that I haven't seen any chain procs of LO yet either.

 

Inkognito

Well we are fucked so to speak... now LO procs are exacly half of the lightning bolt dmg atm on PTR meaning now a LO does 850 dmg if u hit for 1700 and crits for 1700, it doesnt proc on its own so Lo proc chance exacly 20%, we are looking at a much bigger nerf aparently, the dps droped quite a lot on the PTR on Dr Doom for me atleast, gonna go check now if chain lightning can still have multiple LO proc on same cast.. well gg this is crap.

 

Inkognito

CL can still have LO double proc on same cast still.. one more change.. the enchants are shown as white like stats, this happend before from what i recall in an earlyer patch.

 

• Binkenstein

For crying out loud that's annoying.

I bet they're going to stick with the "It's a buff" argument due to the stopcast change..

 

Genj

So what started as a buff according to testing and stuff turned out to be a huge nerf, cool...

Also the fact that LO doesn't proc itself and might has a cooldown completely negates the accumulation of spell haste rating i think.

EDIT: so a lightning capacitor would hit as hard as a tier 7-8 talent whatever number it is? -_-