Too much misinformation and rumors without actual testing in this thread. We really need to figure all aspects of new Lighting Overload and then ask devs if its working as intended and how about some dps buffs.
New Rule: When making claims about changes on PTR, please include a screenshot.
Otherwise, don't post, or put big Conjecture labels all over it.
LB Spam(rapid tapping the button) 771dps, compared to the 963 I can sustain on live.
LB Spam(Methodical approach, taping the key as soon as the cast ends) 763dps
Finally
Lightning Bolt Spam(Striking LB key as the cast bar reaches the t in bolt)974dps
So has Blizz taken steps to eliminate button mashers? lol
Is their new stopcasting system prolonging the cast bar, or just plain old not working?
A few posts up someone noted that if you hit the key a tad to early you gotta wait about 1.4 seconds to cast again. This is true. There is a spot you can hit it where the cast bar turns red and says failed and you have to wait for global cool down. I tried to get a screen shot of it, but I couldn't get one that really gets across what I'm saying. What is happening is. If you try to cast to soon it triggers the global cooldown as if you did cast, then your spell ends, and you hit the button and get a failed message, because it's still on global cooldown from a spell that never went off.
Made it 5min ago u can see clearly the LO proced and i got a charge from its crit and clearcasting, the LB was not a crit. u cant have anything more clear then that, so TLC will be best trinket for us still.
Made it 5min ago u can see clearly the LO proced and i got a charge from its crit and clearcasting, the LB was not a crit. u cant have anything more clear then that, so TLC will be best trinket for us still.
Ah, thank god. Then it was just an error on my part, sorry for extra "panic". What interests me is your crit value on LO, though. Even if 1583 were your minimum possible hit damage, the damage of the highest LB (and thus an LO crit) would be no more than 1670. Where the hell did the extra damage come from? The only explanation I can think of is the new caster crit meta gem?
I never claimed TLC wouldn't be good, though. The only claim was that TLC wouldn't narrow the gap, which I thankfully stand corrected at now.
LB Spam(rapid tapping the button) 771dps, compared to the 963 I can sustain on live.
LB Spam(Methodical approach, taping the key as soon as the cast ends) 763dps
Finally
Lightning Bolt Spam(Striking LB key as the cast bar reaches the t in bolt)974dps
So has Blizz taken steps to eliminate button mashers? lol
Is their new stopcasting system prolonging the cast bar, or just plain old not working?
A few posts up someone noted that if you hit the key a tad to early you gotta wait about 1.4 seconds to cast again. This is true. There is a spot you can hit it where the cast bar turns red and says failed and you have to wait for global cool down. I tried to get a screen shot of it, but I couldn't get one that really gets across what I'm saying. What is happening is. If you try to cast to soon it triggers the global cooldown as if you did cast, then your spell ends, and you hit the button and get a failed message, because it's still on global cooldown from a spell that never went off.
Slouken already posted several times that they will fix issue with gcd in next ptr build, so we need to wait on this.
And for all testers: post on what mobs you are testing and post combat logs. And of course, fill armory link in profile. Posts like "my dps was xxx and now its xxx" arent really helpful.
And for all testers: post on what mobs you are testing and post combat logs. And of course, fill armory link in profile. Posts like "my dps was xxx and now its xxx" arent really helpful.
Additionally, post combat logs with times, please. It helps little if one has 3 LBs written, but we don't know whether they've been cast in 6 seconds or 6 hours.
The only claim was that TLC wouldn't narrow the gap, which I thankfully stand corrected at now.
It wont compensate but it does increase its dps a bit after 2.3.. anyway all shamans should go for it next patch will be best u can get, as for the dmg mate i dont have the meta gem with increased crit i can tell u though how much spell dmg i had and u can do the math.
1229 + 55 from relic base dmg from the spell is 599 to 684.
I did the calculation and it goes up to 1672 max, i cant explain why it went over 1700, thing is there was no shadow priest on him.. only me and another shammy alliance. My trinkets were TLC and eye of magtheridon and the eye didnt proc, very strange.
Still on the stopcasting thing most people now who play with that sort of lag use stopcasting to increase their dps. I know the mages in my guild do. Thus I don't see how the 3 second vs 2 second is going to help us that much at all. Especially with them getting 10% more damage and us 10% less.
I did the calculation and it goes up to 1672 max, i cant explain why it went over 1700, thing is there was no shadow priest on him.. only me and another shammy alliance. My trinkets were TLC and eye of magtheridon and the eye didnt proc, very strange.
Aye, we might have another bug here. I'll check it out on PTR tomorrow and see if I can repeat your higher damage on LO.
I've been reading the various threads on us for a couple days, but I haven't seen any definitive answer to our 2nd trinket slot. I have the opportunity to get the Sextant (I use [Shiffar's Nexus-Horn] now), which seemed like the easy answer pre-2.3, but will this still be the best 2nd trinket for us post-2.3 (obviously, TLC isn't going anywhere.) I am hesitant to buy the Icon due to the cost vs. what is available from the vendors post-2.3, is there a 3rd option that will be valid post-2.3 due to the changes?
Mages and shamans have the same theoretical dps output? You have got to be joking. Heres a few WWS parses from our kills last week. WWS <- I was flasked, oiled and well fed. Ccd had nothing. WWS <- I was flasked. Ccd had nothing iirc. WWS <- Can't remember if i was flasked or not. Ccd still had nothing iirc.
Cele is an enh shaman so thats even more dps boost.
The only times i do more dps than him is when his dead or on trash with CL. We have about equal gear.
Don't look at the other mages. I think some of them don't use stopcasting and some are just plain average. They always do shit dps. Haven't taken the time to figure out why. Ccd has always been miles ahead of any other mages we have had. (Even when hes frost or something silly like that.)
The stopcasting removal is kind of a nonissue anyway, since all the decent raiders use stopcasting and the gains will be either minimal or nonexistant. The night i ran my tests on PTR i did 170 chaincasts and the average cast time was exactly 2 seconds. My LB cast is 1.85s long and i don't have any haste proccing items. I haven't been to the PTR since that tho, might run some tests when i cba.
Mages and shamans have the same theoretical dps output? You have got to be joking. Heres a few WWS parses from our kills last week. WWS <- I was flasked, oiled and well fed. Ccd had nothing. WWS <- I was flasked. Ccd had nothing iirc. WWS <- Can't remember if i was flasked or not. Ccd still had nothing iirc.
Cele is an enh shaman so thats even more dps boost.
The only times i do more dps than him is when his dead or on trash with CL. We have about equal gear.
Don't look at the other mages. I think some of them don't use stopcasting and some are just plain average. They always do shit dps. Haven't taken the time to figure out why. Ccd has always been miles ahead of any other mages we have had. (Even when hes frost or something silly like that.)
The stopcasting removal is kind of a nonissue anyway, since all the decent raiders use stopcasting and the gains will be either minimal or nonexistant. The night i ran my tests on PTR i did 170 chaincasts and the average cast time was exactly 2 seconds. My LB cast is 1.85s long and i don't have any haste proccing items. I haven't been to the PTR since that tho, might run some tests when i cba.
It would be that Ccd is one of these people that get called "a machine". In terms of DPS, you're sitting about where I'd expect you to be for your gear.
Mages and shamans have the same theoretical dps output? You have got to be joking. Heres a few WWS parses from our kills last week. WWS <- I was flasked, oiled and well fed. Ccd had nothing. WWS <- I was flasked. Ccd had nothing iirc. WWS <- Can't remember if i was flasked or not. Ccd still had nothing iirc.
Cele is an enh shaman so thats even more dps boost.
The only times i do more dps than him is when his dead or on trash with CL. We have about equal gear.
Don't look at the other mages. I think some of them don't use stopcasting and some are just plain average. They always do shit dps. Haven't taken the time to figure out why. Ccd has always been miles ahead of any other mages we have had. (Even when hes frost or something silly like that.)
The stopcasting removal is kind of a nonissue anyway, since all the decent raiders use stopcasting and the gains will be either minimal or nonexistant. The night i ran my tests on PTR i did 170 chaincasts and the average cast time was exactly 2 seconds. My LB cast is 1.85s long and i don't have any haste proccing items. I haven't been to the PTR since that tho, might run some tests when i cba.
Assuming equal skill a mage even in 2.2 will out dps an ele sham unless you get 3 hit CL. Same goes for lock but usually destro locks are even higher dps (ours do 1400dps in t5/t6 mixed gear) than mages. In 2.3 with the buff to mages you will easily see 1600 dps (with typical bt/hyjal gear) from a fire mage.
Even with 1400+ dmg 40% crit an ele sham can't do that dps (~1500 dps. 1575dps 3LB/1CL 1488dps LB spam) unless hes got a good amount of haste which would make that level of +dmg not possible with current end game gear and 2.2 mechanics (I'm not even sure 1400 and 40 crit is possible in t6 gear but with all buffs, food, and flasks it should be close). Factoring in a 7%+ loss in dps for 2.3 (conservative est) I can't imagine how a shaman could out dps a equally skilled mage in equivalent gear.
If you look at the mage calculations done by vontre in the mage thread as well as what current warlocks do even before the stopcasting fix I don't see how we could ever match that dps on a single target with 0 lag and the best items out of BT/hyjal. I don't really think we should be able to out dps a mage or a lock but the gap seems very wide atm.
Why does Shaman have one of the best healing spells if the class is not supposed to match other pure classes which don't give any group buff?
The problem I see is that DPS is so easy meassured and the common opionon is that we cleary should be below others. Healing in other way is harder to look at a meter and say wich class is a best, and that class is a support so it shouldn't be that high. Meanwhile our resto tree is really good one, and both bring about the same groups buffs. Then why bring a mediocre DPS, when you can bring an imba healer? Same goes for Paladins and their holy tree.
On another side. Warlocks give Curse of Elements/Shadow, Soul Stones and Health Stones, also they can heal themselves with Drain Life. To me it seems like they bring as much support to a raid as we do.
Edit: Were looking back in the thread for a comparson of how much this nerfs us compared to how much spell dmg/crit you have, but couldn't find any done with the way it currently works. Anyone mind pointing me in the right direction?
Why does Shaman have one of the best healing spells if the class is not supposed to match other pure classes which don't give any group buff?
The problem I see is that DPS is so easy meassured and the common opionon is that we cleary should be below others. Healing in other way is harder to look at a meter and say wich class is a best, and that class is a support so it shouldn't be that high. Meanwhile our resto tree is really good one, and both bring about the same groups buffs. Then why bring a mediocre DPS, when you can bring an imba healer? Same goes for Paladins and their holy tree.
On another side. Warlocks give Curse of Elements/Shadow, Soul Stones and Health Stones, also they can heal themselves with Drain Life. To me it seems like they bring as much support to a raid as we do.
Edit: Were looking back in the thread for a comparson of how much this nerfs us compared to how much spell dmg/crit you have, but couldn't find any done with the way it currently works. Anyone mind pointing me in the right direction?
All healing classes have decent to very good buffs and have thier own role in the raid where they excel at healing.
For dps/utility I think that it should be our dps + added dps through utlilty = other classes dps.
Since wrath of air + totem of wrath + bloodlust are pretty good dps wise I do think we would be OP if we could do 1600 dps and hang with the locks and 2.3 fire mages.
For example an enh shaman might do 1400 dps but adds another 200 or so dps for the 4 other melee in his group putting him up in the ~2200 dps equivalent where rogues sit. I think thats balanced. Arguing for enh sham to do 2200 alone would mean there is no reason for pure dps classes.
I am going to stay clear of melee vs caster dps I'm just providing an example of a good dps/util class.
I think ele should be similar in function if not in details. It should be a good dps class that when taken in what he adds to the group means he is more dps than a 4th mage or whatever.
As for locks. I think they are OP ;-) but seriously our raid doesn't even use CoE so mostly they are just doing straight dps I don't really think curses = lust + wrath of air + totem of wrath + mana spring but it can vary according to raid makeup I suppose. Certainly we cannot come close to their dps though.
As it is I don't really feel that 3hit + 3crit, 101 spell dmg, and 20 mp5 and lust (esp versus an resto sham) justifies bringing an ele shaman if our high end dps is going to be so much lower than mages/locks.
Personally I think that to justify an ele sham we are going to have to be close to 85-90% of their dps to justify the spot since our totems don't add nearly the benefit that windfury does for melee.
I think the big thing that people forget is that we also offer an extra healer, and can be somewhat effective at it too (ie: Ele/Balance would be the best non-resto/holy heal specs of the hybrids).
Is anyone planning on respecing because of these changes? Or is the potential incoming nerf just a bit of hand-wringing and over reaction?
I think a few people are over reacting (mostly it seems people from the WoW Shaman forums). Its a nerf but we are also picking up better mana effectiveness and agro-free damage. I know most people are upset with the trade off since we don't really need either of those things but its not like we are just taking a dps nerf and getting nothing in return.
I know I will not be trying to minimize the use of mana pots and start using desto. pots more, also I'm looking forward to being less agro sensitive for a few different fights.
I hope they balance a few things out to lessen the dps nerf but I'm not going to be too upset if this is what goes live.
I think the big thing that people forget is that we also offer an extra healer, and can be somewhat effective at it too (ie: Ele/Balance would be the best non-resto/holy heal specs of the hybrids).
Healing as elemental is completely out of the question when you get into BT...It works in SSC/TK because the fights aren't overly stressful on healers. I think its stupid that our spec would be penalized because we have the ability to heal, when you're an extremely sub par healer in raids.
Healing as elemental is completely out of the question when you get into BT...It works in SSC/TK because the fights aren't overly stressful on healers. I think its stupid that our spec would be penalized because we have the ability to heal, when you're an extremely sub par healer in raids.
I agree, with any content this is a silly thing to balance around. If I ever had to heal for a boss fight then I might as well go resto for that fight or just bring in another healer.
Healing as elemental is completely out of the question when you get into BT...It works in SSC/TK because the fights aren't overly stressful on healers. I think its stupid that our spec would be penalized because we have the ability to heal, when you're an extremely sub par healer in raids.
Originally Posted by Benjaimn
I agree, with any content this is a silly thing to balance around. If I ever had to heal for a boss fight then I might as well go resto for that fight or just bring in another healer.
I didn't mean healing full time.
I meant "Oh shit, we've lost too many healers, quick, Elemental-Shaman-Man, help heal!" emergencies, or topping up your fellow dps casters on a fight that has little raid damage.
I meant "Oh shit, we've lost too many healers, quick, Elemental-Shaman-Man, help heal!" emergencies, or topping up your fellow dps casters on a fight that has little raid damage.
I suppose that I have done that a few times, the only direct example I could think of off hand would be the Magtheridon fight. I find myself topping of cube clickers around me before they click and helping to heal the raid up after the 30% mark.
That's not an argument for nerfing our dps by 10%. Honestly you're not even raiding as elemental (your shaman every time I've ever armoried him has been resto).
We don't need agro free damage when our damage is being nerfed by 10%. Agro free damage right now in raiding is useless. Have you raided as elemental and had issues with agro? In the T5 and T6 content I've done I can count up about 3 fights where agro means a damn thing. Void Reaver, Hydross and Kael on weapons. I have never pulled agro on any other boss. Hydross is pointless to bring up for elemental since half the fight they're immune to our damage anyway. And Kael's weapon is fully dealable by just tab targetting between various tank's targets with one LB each til the call goes out for AOE.
Any other fights in T5/T6 with agro issues?
Lurker: none
Karathress: none
Leotheras: Once again none, agro in this fight is attacking him when you shouldn't be. Giving us agro reduction won't help here.
Morogrim: Depends on your tank, but if you get graved at least once then its not an issue.
Vashj: none.
Al'ar: None
Void Reaver: sure agro can be an issue, but thats how the fight is designed.
Solarian: none
Kael: None on anyone else but weapons and thats dealable
MH:
Rage: None, you have to move to avoid DnD anyway.
Anatheron: None, you have to dps infernals
Kaz'rogal: None, wearing Shadow Resist to save mana drains kills dps enough its not an issue
Az'galor: None, silences and RoF interrupt our dps enough that agro is not a concern.
Archimonde: Nope, too busy staying alive
BT:
Naj'entus: Pure tank and spank, none really
Supremus: Nope
Akama: Obviously nope.
Teron: Nope, pushbacks will force us down that fight.
So honestly, have you raided as elemental? Do you realize that the mechanics of nearly all fights force threat to be no issue on most fights? And do you think giving us threat reduction when they are nerfing our dps by roughly 9-10% will actually matter at all?
Now for mana: It can all come down to this pure and simple fact. There is no dps rotation we can do in 2.3 that will be able to equal our 2.2 rotation, even given infinite mana. CL, LBx3 or 4 will not be sustainable, even with a Shadow Priest. But to keep doing the damage we are doing now, we will have to CL more. Simple enough. Thus any mana gains are pretty much messed up due to the mana we'll have to blow into CL to come anywhere close to 2.2 damage.
And why oh why would we be useful as an extra healer on fights where the raid is taking little damage? If so then the healers and Shadow Priests can do that all on their own. I agree there is a bit of value in having a high crit chance with LHW and AF and I have used it a bit on Azgalor to help out. But that doesn't make up for having our dps nerfed by 10% and being given meaningless threat and efficiency buffs. (for anyone here not raiding in a group with a shadow priest, well sure it helps you, but since we're all raiding with a shadow priest, the point is moot)
That doesn't even get into the point that all we as elemental offer is a 3% hit/crit totem. A resto offers much more mana returned to the group through mana tide and better mana spring, plus of course another earth shield. If we had a mechanism such as enhancement shamans where casting a spell buffed our group, I'd love it. That would bring our numbers back into line and stop this from being a nerf. And most importantly, it would give elemental shamans a reason to be in the raid other than a mostly insignifigant totem.
10/22/07, 6:25 AM
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