[Shaman] Elemental Shaman DPS Spreadsheet? - Page 3

Totemologist · 06/20/07, 2:47 PM

Single target - LB spam wins, to coefficent for LB is better as well so as you add +Dam this becomes even more apparent.

There really is no 'efficent' dps cycle outside of pure LB spam. Your DPM will plummet by adding in CL and Shocks while adding very marginal returns to your overall output. Concider that when you stop to shock you also miss out on a chance to Proc LO and that should pretty much show you that the best time to shock is when you want to get the KB damage spike at the last % of the mobs HP.

It's all been said above, just confirming.

subscience · 06/20/07, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Totemologist

Single target - LB spam wins, to coefficent for LB is better as well so as you add +Dam this becomes even more apparent.

Originally Posted by Voltan

LB Spam over 60 seconds.
30 Casts of LB - 1442 DPS over 60 seconds.

LB/LB/LB/CL rotation over 60 seconds.
22 casts of LB & 10 casts of CL - 1574 dps over 59 seconds.

A 135 DPS increase isn't substantial? Obviously, the downside is that your DPM goes down.

Using the numbers above, base mana cost, and no Elemental Mastery.
30 LBs = 9900 MP => 1442 DPS for 165 MP/s => 8.74 DPM
22 LBs, 10 CLs = 15610 MP => 1574 DPS for 260.2 MP/s => 6.05 DPM

135 DPS for the cost of 95.2 MP/s (or 380.8 MP/5) with a 2.69 DPM delta.

Elemental Focus/Mastery, Lightning Overload and other talents will bump up your DPM.

Nite_Moogle · 06/20/07, 3:50 PM

A 135 DPS increase isn't substantial?

The problem is you're more than doubling your mana for that one cast for a very minor increase in damage. It really isn't worth it unless you're not going to be able to empty your mana pool before the fight ends.

subscience · 06/20/07, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

The problem is you're more than doubling your mana for that one cast for a very minor increase in damage. It really isn't worth it unless you're not going to be able to empty your mana pool before the fight ends.

I completely agree, but increased DPS is increased DPS and I believe that was the argument at hand [edit for clarity - the argument that a CL rotation doesn't provide a large enough DPS increase to make it worthwhile. 'Worthwhile' is, of course, case-specific, but going full-burn-CL rotation gives a much larger DPM tradeoff than any cycle with Shocks by a pretty large degree].

As shown above, DPM drops significantly (~31% untalented) with a CL rotation, but the damage increase is there for sure.

Binkenstein · 06/20/07, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by Voltan

25 casts of LB & 5 casts of FS - 1475 dps over 57.5 seconds (When I added an extra LB, the DPS dropped to 1474 if someone with more time could look at why this happens on the spreadsheet I would be greatful)

It takes the total damage, and divides by the total time of the spells cast.

Originally Posted by subscience

I completely agree, but increased DPS is increased DPS and I believe that was the argument at hand [edit for clarity - the argument that a CL rotation doesn't provide a large enough DPS increase to make it worthwhile. 'Worthwhile' is, of course, case-specific, but going full-burn-CL rotation gives a much larger DPM tradeoff than any cycle with Shocks by a pretty large degree].

As shown above, DPM drops significantly (~31% untalented) with a CL rotation, but the damage increase is there for sure.

One thing most people forget is that a lower dps may end up with more damage delt over the course of the fight, depending on how long it goes. Might add in a mana pool variable so you can compare this too. So assuming you are lucky with Clearcasts you'll do more damage, but unlucky you'll do less. (need to get 5 out of 8 CL's on a clearcast to beat LB spam for efficency).

I'll tidy it up and upload it later. Busy at work too (taken me most of an hour to post this >.<)

Dicho · 06/21/07, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Voltan

Working on an feasible rotation for CL&FS integrated into LB spam, Spreadsheet is kicking out 1607 dps for a rotation containing 18 LBs, 10 CL's and 5 FS's over 58.5 seconds. Just need a bit of time to calculate when its possible to add in the CL&FS's. It does look to be a higher dmg rotation, however it looks like we'd have a hunter-style pain trying to weave these into the rotation (CL having to be cast on CD, and FS as soon as the DoT portion is finished), the may result in the loss of regular LB casts.

I have no doubt that the CL,FS,LB rotation is mana inefficient, but that just isnt the point for me anymore.
Again I have to say that once you have that good gear, and is in a shadow priest group(and spend mana pots ofc, but I would assume that goes without saying), mana really isnt an issue.

If I get invited to a raid to do dps, and I end the fight with ~70% mana knowing I could have done more dmg having spent more mana, I would consider myself a failure.

Voltan · 06/21/07, 8:07 AM

I agree with you Dicho. Mana has almost never been a concern/issue for me, I can pretty much go balls to the wall for an entire fight without ever going OOM.

The point I was trying to make in the part you quoted from my post, was the fact that trying to fit CL&FS into a rotation could lead to a reduction in DPS due to the difficulty of 'threading' in FS&CL.
To achieve the DPS the spreadsheet gave us, would require CL being cast every CD, and FS being re-applied as soon as the dot portion is finished (so it is always up), with all other time in the 58.5sec rotation be filled with LB. However, due to GCD, CD and cast time on these spells, there are going to be some small gaps (.5 seconds, growing to 1, then 1.5 seconds) where it is inneficient to wait for CL to CD, or the FS dot portion to run down before re-applying, however casting a lightning bolt first, results in 1.5secs where there is no FS active, or reduces the amount of CL casts you can do in a given fight. I have yet to map out casting rotations yet to see the severity of the situation, but I have a feeling it is going to be something similar to the problem hunters have with threading there shots.

Dicho · 06/21/07, 9:30 AM

Aye, moving away from the mana concern, the actual rotation is helluva tricksy.

This is one place our dear Dr. Boom is quite handy, as you can get to work on a decent rotation on him. The problem atleast as I see it is that with facturing in latency in raids and the use of stopcasting macros, the whole issue of weaving spells in between each other becomes far more complex. A rotation that works in the relatively lag-free enviroment of Dr. Boom might very well not function in a slightly more choppy raid instance enviroment.

Still, it would be fun to work with, as it atleast would a little more skill to elemental raiding then mindlessly spamming LB/CL whenever it is up

Rebaseke · 06/29/07, 2:35 PM

I was wondering with all the dps and cycle talk here, has anyone made a spreadsheet that shows the estimated comparative values of spellcrit to haste to damage (next 1 damage = x spellcrit = y spellhaste) with editable boxes for current stats and certain items (lightning capacitor, shiffars nexus horn, sextant of the unstable currents etc).

This would have to be based on purely statistical calculations probably, but i think it would give a reasonable way to compare upgrades to your current gear.

I'm trying to get something done myself but it will probably take time since theres a lot of things to take into consideration.

Binkenstein · 06/29/07, 7:18 PM

Haste is something I'm working into the item comparitor atm.

Rebaseke · 06/30/07, 11:37 AM

Yeah, i found the spots for crit rating to damage comparison, so looking forward to the haste rating implement! Let us know when you're done!

Binkenstein · 07/01/07, 12:58 AM

Ok, the latest upload (dated 01/07/07 - that's first of July for you American types) has Haste functionality built in, but I haven't added any items in with haste rating yet :p
This is mostly due to realising that my mp5 calculations were a little bit off (well, the value has gone down to about a fifth of what it was previously) because I was just calculating the amount healed by the cost, and not actually looking at the whole timeperiod thing correctly. Now works out how many casts you can do while regening for one cast, then takes 1/# * cast, then divide by co-eff to see what the heal/dmg 1mp5 is worth (then multiplies by the respective valuation).

Planning to get back to add in more items, and am halfway adding in a function to add in the gem stats based on a DEP/HEP preference.

One of these days I'll make a submissions template too, so rather than relying on me to add stuff in, you guys can write it up yourselves, send it to me, and I can C&P it in.

Kegsta · 07/01/07, 1:46 AM

Hey, nice work on the spreadsheets, I didn't get to try it out fully as 1/2 of my gear isn't listed and I don't really feel the needs to add them myself currently. (Gladiator’s gear, belt of ruination)

Anyway I was wondering about +crit rating vs. +Spell damage, for a while now I’ve been sitting around 37% crit buffed and just putting everything into +Damage. However this week I finally got The Lightning Capacitor, and changed my Meta gem to the +3% increased crit damage one (which gives Elemental Shams 209% damage crits). I'm also 1 piece away from the cyclone 4 piece, I currently don't have Shiffar's or Sextant, but they are quite obtainable.

For a shaman with this specific gear they get the following from a crit.
Elemental Focus (60% mana cost reduction)
+300? Damage from the lightning capacitor.
+109% damage on normal hit
11% chance for 15 seconds of -270 mana cost of spells.
20% chance for +190/225 damage for 15 seconds (45 sec cool down)

With all of this stuff I’m wondering if I should try and up my crit rate more, at the cost of +damage, I’m currently using Icon of the silver crescent as my second trinket, but I'm starting to think Sextant or nexus-horn would be better.

All my red slots are currently using +9 damage gems, I'm also considering changing these to +4 crit +5 damage.

Also has anyone tried Shiffar's + Sextant, apparantly there cooldowns are not linked and your looking at some seriously good uptime on the procs having both of those equipped at once.

Rebaseke · 07/02/07, 4:52 AM

I found a mistake in your spreadsheet. On the Ele DEP tab, the average hit inc. crit values are wrong. At least for me (I'm using OpenOffice). The crit values in the stats page that the function relies on are already given in a percentage (e.g. 20% is 0.2 for calculations) and that value is divided by another 100 in the function, giving, at least for me, a 100 times reduction in the crit value. For example the number i got was 1713 average hit and 1720 average hit inc. crit. After i removed the division by 100 i got 1713 average hit and 2389 average hit inc. crit which seems a bit better

I've also tried to tailor the Lightning Capacitor trinket into the fucntions, with pretty good success. If you have time you could make an extra checkbox somewhere that would give the numbers with/without LC trinket. There are also other trinkets that would be nice to compare in the spreadsheet, but i guess it will take some time to get them implemented in a fairly accurate way with all the hidden cooldowns etc.

edit1: I saw that you have added the LC under the trinket section, but it doesn't seem to affect any of the functions.

edit2: Looking at the function, i started wondering if the Lightning Bolt from the LC trinket crits at the base rate or is the crit rate affected by your talents. Has anyone done some testing on this?

edit3: I don't really understand what you've done with the haste rating, can't you view it as 1% haste rating gives 101 casts instead of 100, dividing the extra damage of that 1 spell over the first 100, getting the damage for 1 spell, and then dividing that number by the haste rating?

edit4: Also hit rating could be tailored into the damage functions, giving an even more accurate picture of the values.

edit5: The rating conversions could be done with slightly more accuracy too, instead of dividing by 22.1, which gave only 0.02% error for me, you could modify the number with 14*82/52 for crit rating and 8*82/52 for hit rating, i still have to figure out if the base modifier for haste rating is 13.33 as listed on wowwiki or if its 13.33 (40/3)
I am a greedy bastard, aren't I!

Binkenstein · 07/02/07, 8:15 PM

Originally Posted by Rebaseke

I found a mistake in your spreadsheet

Fixed! (Part of the reason I put these things up, as I miss stuff, and resto works differently so thats ok too

I've also tried to tailor the Lightning Capacitor trinket into the fucntions, with pretty good success. If you have time you could make an extra checkbox somewhere that would give the numbers with/without LC trinket. There are also other trinkets that would be nice to compare in the spreadsheet, but i guess it will take some time to get them implemented in a fairly accurate way with all the hidden cooldowns etc.

edit1: I saw that you have added the LC under the trinket section, but it doesn't seem to affect any of the functions.

edit2: Looking at the function, i started wondering if the Lightning Bolt from the LC trinket crits at the base rate or is the crit rate affected by your talents. Has anyone done some testing on this?

=(750/(((1/Crit)*'Ele DEP'!E13)*3))/'Ele DEP'!A22 <-- my formula

Takes the average damage from a LC proc (750), and divides it by 1/crit% * cast time (to find the number of casts needed to generate 1 proc) * 3, and then divides that by the +dmg co-efficent to get the +dmg equivalence of the trinket.

The Crit cell reference is to the total crit % on the stats page, which includes gear/talents/int

edit3: I don't really understand what you've done with the haste rating, can't you view it as 1% haste rating gives 101 casts instead of 100, dividing the extra damage of that 1 spell over the first 100, getting the damage for 1 spell, and then dividing that number by the haste rating?

edit4: Also hit rating could be tailored into the damage functions, giving an even more accurate picture of the values.

edit5: The rating conversions could be done with slightly more accuracy too, instead of dividing by 22.1, which gave only 0.02% error for me, you could modify the number with 14*82/52 for crit rating and 8*82/52 for hit rating, i still have to figure out if the base modifier for haste rating is 13.33 as listed on wowwiki or if its 13.33 (40/3)
I am a greedy bastard, aren't I!

I looked at it that 1% haste means that rather than dividing average hit by 2, we divide by 1.98 (2*0.99 = 1.98), which of course means that for 200 seconds, you get 101.0101 (repeating) hits rather than 100.

However, looking at it, I think I did some odd dps increase calc, and your 1/x casts thing makes more sense.

I'll add hit into the dmg calculation at some point (so much time, so little to do. No, wait, reverse that), and the more accurate rating values (i took them from that value thread that I have bookmarked at home)