That doesn't even get into the point that all we as elemental offer is a 3% hit/crit totem. A resto offers much more mana returned to the group through mana tide and better mana spring, plus of course another earth shield. If we had a mechanism such as enhancement shamans where casting a spell buffed our group, I'd love it. That would bring our numbers back into line and stop this from being a nerf. And most importantly, it would give elemental shamans a reason to be in the raid other than a mostly insignifigant totem.
I am resto pretty much all time in BT/hyjal but sometimes I go ele for attunement runs or whatever. I think if you are trapped out of range due to fires in archimonde or somthing the ability to heal yourself and others is kinda nice. I don't think it comes anywhere close to justifying this nerf though. A good ele sham will never out dps a good mage in comparable gear in 2.2 and with mages getting buffed and ele sham getting nerfed I'm left scratching my head wondering what prompted this.
That being said the 3 hit 3 crit totem isn't that bad . Assuming the ele sham in brought to every fight ( no reason not to in BT/hyjal) and you have a 3 mage 1 shadow priest 1 ele sham group the totem can be fully utilized so mages can gem accordinly and not waste the 3 hit. One thing to make note of is even as mages are looking to go frost or fire in 2.3 meaning they have only 3% hit from talents isntead of 10% from arcane, itemization in BT/hyjal means its not that difficult for them to be hit capped. Only needed 1-2 gems to reach it. This is the problem with hit. As is most of the 3 hit can be taken advantage of. They can put in more dmg/crit gems and stop at 13% hit. As we progress to full t6/sunwell gear I can see mages having 0 hit gems and just getting the best dps item in each slot and achieving hit cap.
I def agree it would be great to have an "unleashed storm" or somthing group buff that gave 10% more spell dmg on crit or some such akin to what enh sham have. While in theory 3 hit 3 crit is pretty good, hit cap and itemization means this is looking rather iffy.
I had been planning to raid some in 2.3 as ele as my off spec in BT/hyjal but currently its more likely I will just say resto and be the caster dps group.
EDIT: thinking about this a little more. Perhaps fire mages just won't pick up the 3 hit in frost and spend them somewhere else in thier trees. I doubt this would really increase thier dps, but I am not sure.
I was saying "here is an example of how we have more utility than just DPS + totems".
Secondly, yes, I raided often as Restoration. Why? Because we were short on healers. I respec'd elemental as often as I could, and I often raided with an elemental shaman as well. Occasionally that same elemental shaman would heal the MT on Tidewalker if we were short a healer, because having 900-1000 less DPS on the boss is preferable to the tank dying, and easier to organise than dropping someone out for a healer that may or may not be sitting outside the instance waiting for a spot (most raids would consider that a luxury really).
And would you really let fellow raiders die because you're too busy dpsing? (Gruul would be a prime example. After a shatter, throw the odd LHW for top ups then resume dps).
Thirdly, grats on completely missing the point. Every time I talk about the thread/mana changes, I say "if they were not already an issue it's a nerf".
EDIT: thinking about this a little more. Perhaps fire mages just won't pick up the 3 hit in frost and spend them somewhere else in thier trees. I doubt this would really increase thier dps, but I am not sure.
The problem with thinking that way is that if you're not online, if they're not in your group, if you die, or anything, they lose more dps than they would have gained. It sucks to have to rely on a specific person to be in a raid and in your group in order for you to do maximum dps. Some people can get away with it (like elemental shaman needing shadowpriests) because there are multiple people in a raid that can fill that role, but I believe most guilds only have 1 elemental shaman, and when you're not there, its over for those DPS who need you.
Yes it is somewhat of a problem but then again I have 98%% attendance in 6 months so its not really big deal. Should I be gone some night they could swap in a hit trinket or peice of gear. I don't die very often and besides I have ankhs. I don't really think ele shaman dieing is a major problem for the totem. I think the problem is more of itemization with every peice of t6 having hit on it. Some cases staying in range of the totem is also annoying but if carefull doable.
Healing as elemental is completely out of the question when you get into BT...It works in SSC/TK because the fights aren't overly stressful on healers. I think its stupid that our spec would be penalized because we have the ability to heal, when you're an extremely sub par healer in raids.
I disagree, the fact that we can put on healing gear and heal nearly as well as a resto shaman is a big plus for bringing an elemental shaman. The only things we lack are purification and improved chain heal, another resto shaman can stack healing way and even if our chain heal isn't all that good it is still hp that doesn't have to be healed by another healer ie Illidan phase2.
An elemental shaman also has a lot more crit gear for better mitigation against those hard hitting bosses.
I'd still like to see the reasoning behind this horrible dps nerf though since I'm already way behind the average DPSer in my guild 1100dps vs 1300+dps.
Currently working on a modified version on ShamSpells, which I'm going to call CasterComparisons (I like this sort of naming convention).
Once I get the basics sorted (using shaman as an example), I'll get build & stat feedback from other class TC types so we can make some rough dps comparisons between classes. I'm also completely ignoring threat & mana regeneration, so it's just a maximum dps comparison.
Currently working on the buff/consumable/debuff listing.
Sorry that was a sort of response to several people.
As for my situation, I was recruited as a dps'er. In the interview process for my application, I was told basically that we don't expect you to heal. We expect you to prove your value to the guild through dps and dps alone. They like having clean healing assignments and our guild has no shortage of healers, being blessed with a good 10+ active healers. So for me its important that I keep my dps viability. I am not sure if these changes go through that having me in the SP group will be as good as just putting another mage in it.
If I did have to heal for progression instances, I would definitely respec (well if I had the gear). There is value to being able to heal pretty effectively, even in elemental gear but its not useful on many fights. Really the best place that is useful is in MH trash, where the amount of healers you need varies in comparison to the boss following the trash. We often have holy pallies tanking trash and switching to healing gear for the boss. I often on Abom pulls throw down some downranked CHs before AOE call goes out to proc AF on tanks. But my job is dps. If the raid needs one more healer for the fight, no I don't throw on my lackluster healing gear. We sub in another healer for a dps'er.
I dps, I do not dps until healers die and then heal. If healers are dying or people are dying then we bring more healers or figure out what is going on. Add in there that for elemental healing is not exactly efficient. Neither for the most part is dps, in making sure I'd have mana in such a situation. To actually make a difference in healing a boss fight I'd have to be in resto gear and ideally spec from the start. Not a crappy backup with 1000 healing, few of the good talents and a lot of spell crit. Now emergency sure there is some value. a LHW after a silence, stuff like that. But if I went around healing the dps after stuff on Archimonde or Kael I go out of mana very fast at 400ish mana per LHW.
So yeah I'm sorry if I was harsh but to me a dps nerf of 9-10% is in no way countered by us being backup healers or are the values of it mitigated by meaningless threat and mana efficiency buffs. To raiding shamans out there with a shadow priest (which most have) these are not issues. Even for those without a SP, if I just stick to LB spam I can sustain that with potting for a long time.
Probably part of the thing is also in your posts Bink that made me annoyed (and sorry I went personal) is that you've not responded to the issues on the PTR about no chain proccing and especially about the lower than 20% LO percent people seem to be getting on the test realms. I've had people tell me on other threads to read your stuff and that its a buff to us, when the theorycrafting isn't matching up with the reality that raid level shamans are seeing on the PTRs. And the results are clearly showing us that its a signifigant nerf.
At the moment we don't know where we land because we cannot properly parse DPS with Blizzard's spellstopcasting so any type of irrational thinking and knife to throat activity isn't going to get us anywhere. As said before once this is all fixed, then we can work out the kinks in our DPS and figure out ways to counter them. I understand your feelings about this Kasi but you have to still think rationally about all of this. I think from your knee jerk reaction of I am going enhancement to your 2nd recent post you have to really understand that.
By the way if you want to sidegear for enhancement go do some Kara runs with someone with them knowing upfront that your interested in enhancement gear and not going to be betting it all on ZA/SSC/TK RNG, unless your hiding badges in your mattress.
EDIT: Please do not take this as an attack, it is not meant as one nor should it be twisted into one.
[e2] This was my general thinking because I am finding too many Elem Shaman flipping wigs also.
Probably part of the thing is also in your posts Bink that made me annoyed (and sorry I went personal) is that you've not responded to the issues on the PTR about no chain proccing and especially about the lower than 20% LO percent people seem to be getting on the test realms. I've had people tell me on other threads to read your stuff and that its a buff to us, when the theorycrafting isn't matching up with the reality that raid level shamans are seeing on the PTRs. And the results are clearly showing us that its a signifigant nerf.
See the "Current PTR Issues" section of the TC thread linked in my sig. I haven't tested it myself yet (the only time I've had on the PTR ended up being tanking the first boss in ZA on my alt druid). Most of my TC calcs are based on the initial PTR changes, as I'm not updating it with every change that blizzard are making atm (tbh, I'll probably wait for the PTR to come down before making changes). As it stands, we are looking at a nerf, as the "buff" was due to full +dmg on LO & the assumption that LO procs itself. I'll try to keep the TC thread updated with the relevant information as it comes.
One thing to note is that I think (and I'm certain I've said this a few times before) that Blizzard's perceived dps buff is from the stopcasting change. But that is assuming they don't use it to the extent that we do.
One thing to note is that I think (and I'm certain I've said this a few times before) that Blizzard's perceived dps buff is from the stopcasting change. But that is assuming they don't use it to the extent that we do.
If their testing server was in-house then I assume they would never have to use spellstopcasting to almost ANY extent.
One thing to note is that I think (and I'm certain I've said this a few times before) that Blizzard's perceived dps buff is from the stopcasting change. But that is assuming they don't use it to the extent that we do.
I've tried blizzard's stop casting mechanism but it still shows a considerable drop in dps and I've gotten quite good in timing it.
ptr 1060dps, live without stop casting 1160dps and with stop casting I easily go over 1200dps.
If their testing server was in-house then I assume they would never have to use spellstopcasting to almost ANY extent.
I'd say that they wouldn't have been using stopcasting, and would have had some sort of latency to their test server.
They could have used the PTR's prior to them being opened to us.
Originally Posted by Nez
I've tried blizzard's stop casting mechanism but it still shows a considerable drop in dps and I've gotten quite good in timing it.
ptr 1060dps, live without stop casting 1160dps and with stop casting I easily go over 1200dps.
same situation/buffs/debuffs etc etc?
When testing, make sure that the conditions are the same, or as close to the same as possible. Then, when making claims like this, you can back it up with base figures and more detailed examples.
At the moment we don't know where we land because we cannot properly parse DPS with Blizzard's spellstopcasting so any type of irrational thinking and knife to throat activity isn't going to get us anywhere. As said before once this is all fixed, then we can work out the kinks in our DPS and figure out ways to counter them. I understand your feelings about this Kasi but you have to still think rationally about all of this. I think from your knee jerk reaction of I am going enhancement to your 2nd recent post you have to really understand that.
By the way if you want to sidegear for enhancement go do some Kara runs with someone with them knowing upfront that your interested in enhancement gear and not going to be betting it all on ZA/SSC/TK RNG, unless your hiding badges in your mattress.
EDIT: Please do not take this as an attack, it is not meant as one nor should it be twisted into one.
[e2] This was my general thinking because I am finding too many Elem Shaman flipping wigs also.
While it is true we can't properly parse things without knowing the exact details of how the stopcasting mechanics work, there are things from the test realm that we can very easily test. And they have been tested and reported on.
The two things we do know about is 1 that LO isn't chain proccing. Tests have been carried out by casting LB upwards of 500 times, stopping for 3 seconds and then seeing if chain procs happens. They're not. 2nd which is harder to test has to deal with LO proc percentage in chain casting situation. People have reported doing tests where they do wait for the first spell to end before casting again. And then reporting getting values of 14-15% for LO proc percentage.
As for rationally, it's difficult to look at this rationally in ways. Eyonix posts that we're getting a dps buff, people constantly show him the math and do the same on PTR but no response. I see posts of people to lets see the actual in game results and not the math. So those come out and people go blame it on the PTR and how casting is working there. I love being elemental and plan to stay there, but if I lose 10% of my dps while mages get 10% more dps in our raids that is going to seriously affect my viability.
I know for sure that right now at T6 levels of gear Enhancement is just as good if not better dps than elemental from numerous WWS parses of top guilds. And I know they're not getting nerfed but are getting slight buffs. So while my post about changing to enhance was tongue in cheek, I do want a backup plan.
As for the gear I'm going for, Kara is not going to cut it. I am in a T6 guild. Going back to Kara itemization (or at least more than 1-2 pieces of it) when my guild is in T6 will not help me at all. Which is why yes I'm doing heroics, building up badges and working on T5/6 gear. Even if the elemental nerfs don't happen, I do plan to continue to gear up enhancement for ZA for a change of pace. So far I've done pretty well on gear. Our guild has a good upgrade plan and we apparently have some picky hunters/rogues. I only go for gear that is getting a DE warning but have managed to pick up [Mantle of Darkness], [Pendant of the Perilous], [Valestalker Girdle] and [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] so far. If I have to I'll switch to macesmithing to pick up Dragonstrike for my MH weapon.
Stopcasting btw is no help for elemental shamans. Most raiders use it already, thus having it be default will do nothing for my damage considering mages in my guild already do it.
Just saying that depending on RNG in TK/SSC isn't always the wisest. Side you should be able to craft some decent gear (or get crafted decent gear), I meant it solely for filling slots.
While it is true we can't properly parse things without knowing the exact details of how the stopcasting mechanics work, there are things from the test realm that we can very easily test. And they have been tested and reported on.
The two things we do know about is 1 that LO isn't chain proccing. Tests have been carried out by casting LB upwards of 500 times, stopping for 3 seconds and then seeing if chain procs happens. They're not. 2nd which is harder to test has to deal with LO proc percentage in chain casting situation. People have reported doing tests where they do wait for the first spell to end before casting again. And then reporting getting values of 14-15% for LO proc percentage.
As for rationally, it's difficult to look at this rationally in ways. Eyonix posts that we're getting a dps buff, people constantly show him the math and do the same on PTR but no response. I see posts of people to lets see the actual in game results and not the math. So those come out and people go blame it on the PTR and how casting is working there. I love being elemental and plan to stay there, but if I lose 10% of my dps while mages get 10% more dps in our raids that is going to seriously affect my viability.
I know for sure that right now at T6 levels of gear Enhancement is just as good if not better dps than elemental from numerous WWS parses of top guilds. And I know they're not getting nerfed but are getting slight buffs. So while my post about changing to enhance was tongue in cheek, I do want a backup plan.
As for the gear I'm going for, Kara is not going to cut it. I am in a T6 guild. Going back to Kara itemization (or at least more than 1-2 pieces of it) when my guild is in T6 will not help me at all. Which is why yes I'm doing heroics, building up badges and working on T5/6 gear. Even if the elemental nerfs don't happen, I do plan to continue to gear up enhancement for ZA for a change of pace. So far I've done pretty well on gear. Our guild has a good upgrade plan and we apparently have some picky hunters/rogues. I only go for gear that is getting a DE warning but have managed to pick up [Mantle of Darkness], [Pendant of the Perilous], [Valestalker Girdle] and [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] so far. If I have to I'll switch to macesmithing to pick up Dragonstrike for my MH weapon.
Stopcasting btw is no help for elemental shamans. Most raiders use it already, thus having it be default will do nothing for my damage considering mages in my guild already do it.
Yes, we know LO isn't chain procing. We've known that for a while now. The lower proc rate percentages could just be a statistical anomaly, as the "LO cooldown" hasn't been sufficently proven, nor have those people with lower proc rates produced evidence (here anyway, finding information on the WoW Shaman forums is like finding a particular grain of sand on a beach) that shows their lower proc rate, or how many spells they actually cast.
Currently all math that I've been doing was in a "lag free" enviroment. However, I've added in a latency option to the next version of ShamSpells, and rough testing suggests that if you previously had latency lower than 150ms, or stopcast to lower than that, then it's a nerf. Assuming that the buff was due to the cast change in the first place.
Currently working on a modified version on ShamSpells, which I'm going to call CasterComparisons (I like this sort of naming convention).
Once I get the basics sorted (using shaman as an example), I'll get build & stat feedback from other class TC types so we can make some rough dps comparisons between classes. I'm also completely ignoring threat & mana regeneration, so it's just a maximum dps comparison.
Currently working on the buff/consumable/debuff listing.
Going to have to normalise the spell casts to 10 seconds, divide the number of casts by two, and then divide 0.2 by that value to get an average % increase to apply.
I think.
I'm comparing by rotation anyway.
I'll put the current version up anyway, so you can see wtf I'm talking about. Shaman only atm.
I have been doing quite extensive testing on the PTRs with my elemental shaman. I've raided since Karazhan through Leo elemental, and while I share your distaste for the "nerfs," the most important thing is solid testing numbers. Half of the posts on these forums since the PTRs went up have been proving/disproving unsubstantiated claims.
While it is easy to dismiss this as blatant optimism, there is no motivation for Blizzard to nerf us. I genuinely believe they thought these changes would result in a net gain, albeit perhaps misguided. In order for us to get that, we need to supply non-sensationalized data to support the nerf claims.
Also, I hate to see the sniping amongst ourselves. Calling into question the credibility of any of the posters on this site is not productive, whether all of us raid elemental consistently or not does not mean we don't have all have vested interest in seeing the class better off overall.
Bink: Thanks for the diligent updates to the calculators, while they still don't work flawless in OpenOffice, [full blame goes to OO] the effort is more than appreciated. I tried building one of my own, and gave up in pretty short order, I don't know how y'all do it.
Going to have to normalise the spell casts to 10 seconds, divide the number of casts by two, and then divide 0.2 by that value to get an average % increase to apply.
That's assuming all nature damage sources are applied by the elemental shaman, which usually isn't the case (Boomkin's Wrath, Rogue poisons, etc.)
Oh, yeah: Moshne, I've been doing extensive DPS, LO proc and mana sustainability testing for a week now. It's hard to say what exactly is reducing LO's proc chance, but the reduction is there (there doesn't seem to be a hidden cooldown, though, as I've had back-to-back procs as well). Likewise, the DPS with LB spam IS lower. CL-3LB produces higher damage, but I'm fairly confident that's due to CL hitting 3 targets at once (dr. Boom's adds) and proccing more LOs. More testing will be required, though. As for mana sustainability... to put it shortly, it's insane. But what does that help me, if I can achieve the same by using rank 10 LB in 2.2 (around 50 DPS less and 20% better mana efficiency; sounds familiar?) while still retaining the possibility for high damage with rank 12? Anyway, I'm nearly done, so expect screenies soonish.
Hmm... well, with the changes to Mana Spring Totem and Water Shield we will at least gain +75 MP5. I've only checked the gear that I feel is in range of me, and the patch 2.2 gear has quite much MP5 on it... while I notice Zul'aman offers gear that does not have MP5. I.e. I feel I can reduce the impact of the Shaman-changes through some smart gear-changes...
...then again, I don't have a mana problem now and I'm not stacking up on MP5 gems.
Hmm... well, with the changes to Mana Spring Totem and Water Shield we will at least gain +75 MP5.
20 mp2 on Mana Spring = 50 mp5 passive + 200 mana per charge of water shield = 600 mana in 60 seconds = another 50 mp5. In other words, 100 mp5 right there.
Bink: Thanks for the diligent updates to the calculators, while they still don't work flawless in OpenOffice, [full blame goes to OO] the effort is more than appreciated. I tried building one of my own, and gave up in pretty short order, I don't know how y'all do it.
Lots of spare time at work. Lot of it is just data entry, but the calculations/references aren't that large.
Originally Posted by tufy
That's assuming all nature damage sources are applied by the elemental shaman, which usually isn't the case (Boomkin's Wrath, Rogue poisons, etc.)
Oh, yeah: Moshne, I've been doing extensive DPS, LO proc and mana sustainability testing for a week now. It's hard to say what exactly is reducing LO's proc chance, but the reduction is there (there doesn't seem to be a hidden cooldown, though, as I've had back-to-back procs as well). Likewise, the DPS with LB spam IS lower. CL-3LB produces higher damage, but I'm fairly confident that's due to CL hitting 3 targets at once (dr. Boom's adds) and proccing more LOs. More testing will be required, though. As for mana sustainability... to put it shortly, it's insane. But what does that help me, if I can achieve the same by using rank 10 LB in 2.2 (around 50 DPS less and 20% better mana efficiency; sounds familiar?) while still retaining the possibility for high damage with rank 12? Anyway, I'm nearly done, so expect screenies soonish.
Dear god, don't make me start on that too >.<
This is why I don't want to count on stormstrike as a viable elemental debuff.
Originally Posted by Lucitron
Hmm... well, with the changes to Mana Spring Totem and Water Shield we will at least gain +75 MP5. I've only checked the gear that I feel is in range of me, and the patch 2.2 gear has quite much MP5 on it... while I notice Zul'aman offers gear that does not have MP5. I.e. I feel I can reduce the impact of the Shaman-changes through some smart gear-changes...
...then again, I don't have a mana problem now and I'm not stacking up on MP5 gems.
Well, I'll endure.
T4-5-6 scaling seems to be better with these changes (T4, T5+heroic stuff, T6).
20 mp2 on Mana Spring = 50 mp5 passive + 200 mana per charge of water shield = 600 mana in 60 seconds = another 50 mp5. In other words, 100 mp5 right there.
We were already getting 12 mp2 on Mana Spring. So the increase there is only 20 mp5.
That's assuming all nature damage sources are applied by the elemental shaman, which usually isn't the case (Boomkin's Wrath, Rogue poisons, etc.)
I think most rogues probably have Windfury for the MH and deadly on the OH. Deadly does not consume charges. A Romulo's vial will use them. If you have a envenom rogue he will consume charges with envenom.
If your boomkin is wrathing I'm pretty sure he's a bad boomkin.
For most Ele shaman out there the only thing consuming SS should be them, or the Enhance Shaman. And the Enhance should be Flameshocking -> Earth shocking. And in that 6 seconds of cooldown you can easily eat both charges.
They could have used the PTR's prior to them being opened to us.
same situation/buffs/debuffs etc etc?
When testing, make sure that the conditions are the same, or as close to the same as possible. Then, when making claims like this, you can back it up with base figures and more detailed examples.
I've used the time between the moment I dropped the last of the 4 totems till the time a totem despawned to measure my dps. I did ~1,500,000damage in all 3 tests.
10/23/07, 5:49 PM
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