[Shaman] Elemental Shaman DPS Spreadsheet? - Page 31

Daidalos · 10/24/07, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Torrential

I think most rogues probably have Windfury for the MH and deadly on the OH. Deadly does not consume charges. A Romulo's vial will use them. If you have a envenom rogue he will consume charges with envenom.

If your boomkin is wrathing I'm pretty sure he's a bad boomkin.

For most Ele shaman out there the only thing consuming SS should be them, or the Enhance Shaman. And the Enhance should be Flameshocking -> Earth shocking. And in that 6 seconds of cooldown you can easily eat both charges.

Yes for a good pve build and group make up rogues will always have WF on MH and deadly on the OH. Mutilate pve rogues are rare. Poision vial is pretty much a terrible trinket for any melee. Not to say it isn't used but its pretty bad and they should be using somthing else.

My guild actually uses 2 enh shaman from time to time and we are not alone. I know Blood Legion also does this. And really with the enh shaman twisting you can usually get them to not earth shock since it raises overall raid dps and they are already using alot of mana. I think assuming 2 charges per 10 secs isn't unreasonable as an average case. I would also consider it my job to coordinate with the enh sham so I could take advantage of the SS debuffs.

So while there can be others who consume SS charges is not common. I doubt having other people who consume SS is any more common than guilds not useing CoE.

Binkenstein · 10/24/07, 3:10 PM

Posting reminder to add set bonuses to the comparison calcs (and I guess I'll just add a manual selection for set bonuses on ShamStats)

furiousmike · 10/25/07, 4:49 AM

Will TLC keep working on LO when the patch comes out or is it a PTR thing to be fixed?

pickles133 · 10/25/07, 7:36 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Yes for a good pve build and group make up rogues will always have WF on MH and deadly on the OH. Mutilate pve rogues are rare. Poision vial is pretty much a terrible trinket for any melee. Not to say it isn't used but its pretty bad and they should be using somthing else.

My guild actually uses 2 enh shaman from time to time and we are not alone. I know Blood Legion also does this. And really with the enh shaman twisting you can usually get them to not earth shock since it raises overall raid dps and they are already using alot of mana. I think assuming 2 charges per 10 secs isn't unreasonable as an average case. I would also consider it my job to coordinate with the enh sham so I could take advantage of the SS debuffs.

So while there can be others who consume SS charges is not common. I doubt having other people who consume SS is any more common than guilds not useing CoE.

Sorry if this has been answered before but does TLC's bolt consume an SS charge? I know every mage in my guild uses TLC along with me. My assumption is that since TLC lightning bolts aren't classified any differently than regular ones, TLC bolts consume a charge too but this is something I'd like to get cleared up.

*Prays for good news*

Binkenstein · 10/25/07, 7:37 AM

Originally Posted by furiousmike

Will TLC keep working on LO when the patch comes out or is it a PTR thing to be fixed?

No idea.

We know nothing aside from what Eyonix & co post, or we test for ourselves on the PTR. Asking about future changes that aren't "blue posted" is kinda useless at this point. This doesn't stop us from thinking of how it could be better.

One point: anyone noticed how Mages get lvl 70 DD spells, while LB is 67? Or that they have possible additional ranks too?

WTB lvl 70 lightning bolt. Might make a bit of difference (I'll see if I can get a guestimate of what it could be tomorrow, and see how that changes my dps simulator).

Jehla · 10/25/07, 7:47 AM

Originally Posted by furiousmike

Will TLC keep working on LO when the patch comes out or is it a PTR thing to be fixed?

I just tested that this morning (after a 26MB PTR patch), and it does still work. Also looks like they fixed the GCD. I fire a bolt, the GCD starts, then I press bolt again after GCD is over. The timer will start again, but once my bolt fires the GCD is cleared.

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

One point: anyone noticed how Mages get lvl 70 DD spells, while LB is 67? Or that they have possible additional ranks too?

I was under the impression that spells carry on scaling with level until you get a new rank. Well I'm very sure thats how are weapon buffs work anyway.

Daidalos · 10/25/07, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by pickles133

Sorry if this has been answered before but does TLC's bolt consume an SS charge? I know every mage in my guild uses TLC along with me. My assumption is that since TLC lightning bolts aren't classified any differently than regular ones, TLC bolts consume a charge too but this is something I'd like to get cleared up.

*Prays for good news*

I belive it does. Currently all our mages also use TLC however when 2.3 comes out they will mostly not use it anymore. SImple because TLC is only good for high crit and frequent hits. With mages speccing away from arcane in 2.3 they have all mentioned they will no longer use it. Although if things stay the same with more frequent and 1/2 dmg LOs and smaller LB's I do think the effectivness of of SS will go down. I'm guessing it would still be 2-3% increase overall though. I'll try to come up with some equations on this.

Daidalos · 10/25/07, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jehla

I just tested that this morning (after a 26MB PTR patch), and it does still work. Also looks like they fixed the GCD. I fire a bolt, the GCD starts, then I press bolt again after GCD is over. The timer will start again, but once my bolt fires the GCD is cleared.

I was under the impression that spells carry on scaling with level until you get a new rank. Well I'm very sure thats how are weapon buffs work anyway.

That is correct. The downranking coefficient is based on the "Effective" level div by the char level.
The spells effective level is. MAX((Level next rank is learned -1)+6, char level)
(yeah I know -1 +6 is just +5 but thats how the blue post went so thats what I say)
so Max rank LB in effect a lvl 70 spell since there is no higher rank.
LB rank 11 is also a lvl 70 spell. Because Max((67-1+6, char level) means there is no down ranking penalty till lvl 75.

Here is a copy n paste from my ele spread sheet on LB ranks

Rank 1	1	13
Rank 2	8	19
Rank 3	14	26
Rank 4	21	31
Rank 5	26	37
Rank 6	32	43
Rank 7	38	49
Rank 8	44	55
Rank 9	50	61
Rank 10	56	67
Rank 11	62	70
Rank 12	67	70

Miaxi · 10/25/07, 3:22 PM

At level 70,untalented lb12 gives 611.5 damage, as opposed to the 603 you see in the WoWhead list. Just for your info.

It seems they could not get the lag fix to work and just turned it off completely for now instead of fixing the GCD thing.

I recorded a little test this afternoon in case anybody is interested: damt.wmv - FileFront.com

400ms latency messed things up a bit, but still... :/

Daidalos · 10/25/07, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Miaxi

At level 70,untalented lb12 gives 611.5 damage, as opposed to the 603 you see in the WoWhead list. Just for your info.

I did AVERAGE(563,643) to get 603. How did you get 611? Are in game tooptip values wrong or change and I not notice?

Miaxi · 10/25/07, 3:58 PM

I transferred my shaman to PTR and removed talents. Spells scale with level.

Daidalos · 10/25/07, 8:53 PM

Originally Posted by Miaxi

I transferred my shaman to PTR and removed talents. Spells scale with level.

Oh hrm I'm looking at my tooltip now..571-652dmg.. I never noticed before.

Binkenstein · 10/25/07, 9:25 PM

I should probably update my calcs then... I was just using the wowhead base values

Moshne · 10/28/07, 3:06 AM

I was playing on the PTRs today with the new Relic [Skycall Totem], I was under the impression this had a hidden cooldown, however, it appears to not now, I've had it proc during its duration.

I'll get some numbers on it as I find more...

Binkenstein · 10/28/07, 5:50 AM

Yeah, that's been reported elsewhere.

I'll see if I can redo the haste average calculations of mine, but from initial looks it appears second only to the BT relic.

Kirion · 10/28/07, 8:20 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Yeah, that's been reported elsewhere.

I'll see if I can redo the haste average calculations of mine, but from initial looks it appears second only to the BT relic.

I wonder if it can proc from LO or TLC charge. Seems to me that in some cases this relic can be better than bt one.

Jehla · 10/28/07, 10:28 AM

Just tested Lightning overload on the new PTR build. And it is still proccing Clear casting and The lightning capacitor.

Moshne · 10/28/07, 2:36 PM

[Skycall Totem] proccing off the LO proc from a Rank 1 LB.

I've been trying to get it to proc off a TLC proc for quite some nice with no luck. I had it happen twice where it seemed to, but LO procced at the same time as TLC, making it impossible to distinguish which bolt did iti, I've since speced out of it on PTR to eliminate the chance of it happening again.

Moshne · 10/28/07, 4:19 PM

Well, after 100 TLC procs trying to get TLC to proc the Relic, I've yet to get one. While I realize the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it does seem rather unlikely. I'll yank the probability of this not happening later.

All that said, it doesn't really diminish the totem if our one free bolt every 3 critical bolts doesn't trigger it.

Also, for those that would like to try and duplicate it, the methodology I've been using is spamming Rank 1 LB to get two charges on the TLC, then using Chain Lightning to get the third charge (as CL can't proc the Relic, and neither can a LO from CL.) I have a 2nd account I have logged in to do it, which I realize not every can do, but any mob you can cast on for long periods of times should give the same results.

Nennx · 10/28/07, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Yeah, that's been reported elsewhere.

I'll see if I can redo the haste average calculations of mine, but from initial looks it appears second only to the BT relic.

Is there any kind of testing on this? And, do you know if that +85 damage is applied as spell damage (meaning the totem gets worse), or is it a straight +85 damage to LB? That would make a big difference as to which is better as well.

Daidalos · 10/28/07, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by Nennx

Is there any kind of testing on this? And, do you know if that +85 damage is applied as spell damage (meaning the totem gets worse), or is it a straight +85 damage to LB? That would make a big difference as to which is better as well.

All relics n such apply as +spell dmg or +healing for the resto relics.

Binkenstein · 10/28/07, 8:42 PM

Originally Posted by Nennx

Is there any kind of testing on this? And, do you know if that +85 damage is applied as spell damage (meaning the totem gets worse), or is it a straight +85 damage to LB? That would make a big difference as to which is better as well.

So we're sitting here discussing elemental spreadsheets.

And I mention my calculations.

See that thing in my sig? That's where my calculations are.

Do try to keep up.

fyi: I'm going to try to be really silly anytime I point out the obvious in this thread...

Nennx · 10/28/07, 8:44 PM

Key word, "testing"

I also see Skycall totem is one of your spreadsheets, and when I try to select as an item, I get an error, so no, you don't have calculations for it. Nor is there anything about it in your Elemental thread.

Chemdog · 10/29/07, 10:30 AM

Skycall is giving a circular reference error message. A simple note to Bink so he could fix his spreadsheet would have sufficed, Nennx.

Also, Bink, Totem of the Void comes from Mech, not SP (minor). And I think you can change the name of the New Caster Gem to Chaotic Skyfire Diamond.

Rebaseke · 10/29/07, 11:22 AM

Here's a colorful little graph i did for the 2.3 vs 2.2 comparison.

The formula for this graph is:

av(dmg,crit)=(611.5 + dmg * 3/3.5)* crit * 1.05 * 1.05 - (611.5 + dmg * 2.5/3.5) * crit * 1.05 * ( 1 + 0.5 * 0.2)

Blue is the base damage of the bolt
Red is the effective +damage
Green is LO damage

The first half of the equation is your average lightning bolt damage in 2.2 with concussion and 5/5 LO
The second half is the same in 2.3

ImageShack - Hosting :: 23vs22zs8.png

X axis is your damage, Y axis is your crit % and the contour lines show how much damage you lose in 2.3. I saw bink writing earlier that the break-even point should be at 750ish but the graph shows it at 250ish so i'm not 100% sure my math is correct here.

If someone finds a mistake in there, let me know and i'll edit it out.