[Shaman] Elemental Shaman DPS Spreadsheet? - Page 32

Chemdog · 10/29/07, 12:17 PM

Interesting. Looks sound. Not sure what the problem is.

Bulwyf · 10/29/07, 1:16 PM

I'm hearing on test that TLC was nerfed this latest build.

It now has a 2.5 second cooldown after each charge.

*edit* I guess the cooldown is for each bolt, not charge. I just NS+EM+CL and it shot a TLC bolt out as well.

Hodan · 10/29/07, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Rebaseke

Here's a colorful little graph i did for the 2.3 vs 2.2 comparison.

The formula for this graph is:

av(dmg,crit)=(611.5 + dmg * 3/3.5)* crit * 1.05 * 1.05 - (611.5 + dmg * 2.5/3.5) * crit * 1.05 * ( 1 + 0.5 * 0.2)

Blue is the base damage of the bolt
Red is the effective +damage
Green is LO damage

The first half of the equation is your average lightning bolt damage in 2.2 with concussion and 5/5 LO
The second half is the same in 2.3

ImageShack - Hosting :: 23vs22zs8.png

X axis is your damage, Y axis is your crit % and the contour lines show how much damage you lose in 2.3. I saw bink writing earlier that the break-even point should be at 750ish but the graph shows it at 250ish so i'm not 100% sure my math is correct here.

If someone finds a mistake in there, let me know and i'll edit it out.

Well, I can't directly find a mistake with your math, but I can postulate. In order to factor in crit, it should be (1+crit). You could very well have done this, and just assumed that the input crit value was 1.XX, but it's a possibility.

I'm really unsure of how to interpret your graph correctly and won't post about it specifically because of such, but I do know that the nerf is independent of crit. Meaning that if I had 10% crit and 1000 spell damage, I'ld lose the same % of my damage compared to someone with 40% crit and 1000 spell damage. Again, since you mention that the graph measured how much damage you lose, instead of the % reduction in damage, your graph could be accurate about this. It's just an idea.

Kasi · 10/29/07, 2:19 PM

So you can't get TLC to shoot a bolt more than once every 2.5 seconds? I don't see how this would affect us, since other than CL proccing LO you could never get that many crits anyway. Only class I see this affecting is mages with Arcane Explosion proccing TLC. Thankfully this nerf won't affect us.

Bulwyf · 10/29/07, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

So you can't get TLC to shoot a bolt more than once every 2.5 seconds? I don't see how this would affect us, since other than CL proccing LO you could never get that many crits anyway. Only class I see this affecting is mages with Arcane Explosion proccing TLC. Thankfully this nerf won't affect us.

It depends on if they have it correctly nerfed or not on the PTR atm. The description says "Electrical Charge cannot be gained more often than once every 2.5 sec."

From my testing it seems that's true, you cannot get Electrical Charge right after you proc the TLC bolt. You can gain "Electrical Charge (2)" and "Electrical Charge (3)" any time after you get the first "Electrical Charge." Who knows if that's an oversight on the part of the devs or not.

You will see it effect you occassionally as is, but not really a huge deal.

To simplify: Right now on PTR it looks like you can't get the first charge for 2.5 seconds after a discharge.

Rebaseke · 10/29/07, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hodan

Well, I can't directly find a mistake with your math, but I can postulate. In order to factor in crit, it should be (1+crit). You could very well have done this, and just assumed that the input crit value was 1.XX, but it's a possibility.

I'm really unsure of how to interpret your graph correctly and won't post about it specifically because of such, but I do know that the nerf is independent of crit. Meaning that if I had 10% crit and 1000 spell damage, I'ld lose the same % of my damage compared to someone with 40% crit and 1000 spell damage. Again, since you mention that the graph measured how much damage you lose, instead of the % reduction in damage, your graph could be accurate about this. It's just an idea.

Yeah the crit is calculated as crit/100 + 1 on that graph. And yeah i guess the percentual loss might be the same no matter what crit you are at. But the numbers are different it seems.

Jini · 10/29/07, 4:20 PM

The wording on the tooltip for the TLC indicates that it may not be 'working as intended' (tm).

Equip: You gain an Electrical Charge each time you cause a damaging spell critical strike. When you reach 3 Electrical Charges, they will release, firing a Lightning Bolt for 694 to 806 damage. Electrical Charge cannot be gained more often than once every 2.5 sec.

That indicates to me that there will be a 2.5s cooldown for receiving a charge after the last charge, not discharge. Perhaps they need to differentiate between charges and a fully charged state.

Suggested text

Equip: You gain a partial Electrical Charge each time you cause a damaging spell critical strike. When you reach a full Electrical Charge, after 3 partial charges, the Lightning Capacitor fires a Lightning Bolt for 694 to 806 damage. A full Electrical Charge cannot be gained more often than once every 2.5 sec.

This tooltip is reaching ridiculous lengths.

• Binkenstein · 10/29/07, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by Chemdog

Skycall is giving a circular reference error message. A simple note to Bink so he could fix his spreadsheet would have sufficed, Nennx.

Also, Bink, Totem of the Void comes from Mech, not SP (minor). And I think you can change the name of the New Caster Gem to Chaotic Skyfire Diamond.

Fixed & fixed.

Originally Posted by Rebaseke

Here's a colorful little graph i did for the 2.3 vs 2.2 comparison.

The formula for this graph is:

av(dmg,crit)=(611.5 + dmg * 3/3.5)* crit * 1.05 * 1.05 - (611.5 + dmg * 2.5/3.5) * crit * 1.05 * ( 1 + 0.5 * 0.2)

Blue is the base damage of the bolt
Red is the effective +damage
Green is LO damage

The first half of the equation is your average lightning bolt damage in 2.2 with concussion and 5/5 LO
The second half is the same in 2.3

ImageShack - Hosting :: 23vs22zs8.png

X axis is your damage, Y axis is your crit % and the contour lines show how much damage you lose in 2.3. I saw bink writing earlier that the break-even point should be at 750ish but the graph shows it at 250ish so i'm not 100% sure my math is correct here.

If someone finds a mistake in there, let me know and i'll edit it out.

~750 was the break even when +dmg wasn't halved. I put a revised break even point breakdown in the TC thread, which came up as 280ish.

And if that TLC chance is correct, it's going to be a pain, although it's probably to make sure that a Kara trinket isn't the best one for elementals.

Rebaseke · 10/29/07, 4:57 PM

So i made another graph about what percentage of damage you lose in the new patch if the current version should go live and as said earlier, it is not affected by crit.

The formula is the same as the other graph, but its divided by the first part of the equation (2.2 average bolt damage)

ImageShack - Hosting :: 22vs23yf5.png

Tejs · 10/29/07, 5:24 PM

I don't believe Rebaseke's math is right, but I believe this is how it goes:

2.2 Versions
A = (Minimum Lightning Bolt Damage Range + 0.857 * Spellpower)
B = (Maximum Lightning Bolt Damage Range + 0.857 * Spellpower)
C = (A + B) / 2
D = (C * (100 - Critical Hit Chance)) + (2*C * (Critical Hit Chance))
E = ((D * 0.95) + (2D * 0.05)) * 1.05 * ((100 - (17 - Spell Hit Chance)) / 100)

E will be the average lightning bolt damage you will do in a raid setting when factoring in your spellpower, critical hit chance, lightning overload, and spell hit chance. No external buffs.

2.3 Versions
A = (Minimum Lightning Bolt Damage Range + 0.714 * Spellpower)
B = (Maximum Lightning Bolt Damage Range + 0.714 * Spellpower)
C = (A + B) / 2
D = (C * (100 - Critical Hit Chance)) + (2*C * (Critical Hit Chance))
E = ((D * 0.80) + (1.5D * 0.20)) * 1.05 * ((100 - (17 - Spell Hit Chance)) / 100)

E will be the average lightning bolt damage you will do in a raid setting when factoring in your spellpower, critical hit chance, lightning overload, and spell hit chance. Please notice how some of the formulas changed, notably A, B, and E. No external buffs.

Tejs' Math

Spellpower: 1118 Lightning Damage (T4 Wrath of Air, Totem of the Void)
Spell Critical Chance: 36% (Totem of Wrath)
Spell Hit Chance: 15.80% (Totem of Wrath)

In 2.2, I will deal an average 2125.6 Damage per lightning bolt, factoring in my spell damage, spell critical strike chance, lightning overload, and spell hit chance.

In 2.3, I will deal an average 2019.0 Damage per lightning bolt, factoring in my spell damage, spell critical strike chance, lightning overload and spell hit chance.

This is an average loss of 106.5 Damage per lightning bolt equivalent, and thus an overall decrease in optimal DPS by 53.299 with zero latency. Feel free to peruse my maths for inaccuracies.

• Binkenstein · 10/29/07, 6:09 PM

Calculating the TLC nerf (damn mages abusing it's mechanics)

C = crit
C - C^2 (crit minus chance to get a two-in-a-row-crit)= chance to get a TLC charge

So for our standard 40% crit:
0.4-(0.4*0.4)
0.4-0.16
0.24
24/40 = 60% of normal, ie: 40% nerf of TLC damage. (DEP figures are 126 & 78, which comes to a 39% nerf)

Moshne · 10/29/07, 6:15 PM

I just played with TLC on test.

- Elemental Mastery + Chain Lightning + 3 mobs = 3 crits, and a TLC proc, the same as live
- Chaining rank 1 LB in melee range (with 4 pc arena bonus), two consecutive crits gave charges
- Elemental Mastery + Chain Lightning when I already had charges up, yielding 1 bolt, no extra charges.

As was suggested above, this change appears to only affect the reapplication of charges after a successful discharge. While that does diminish TLC total value, I'd have to do some numbers to see how significant a degree of change we will see.

Moshne · 10/29/07, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Calculating the TLC nerf (damn mages abusing it's mechanics)

C = crit
C - C^2 (crit minus chance to get a two-in-a-row-crit)= chance to get a TLC charge

So for our standard 40% crit:
0.4-(0.4*0.4)
0.4-0.16
0.24
24/40 = 60% of normal, ie: 40% nerf of TLC damage. (DEP figures are 126 & 78, which comes to a 39% nerf)

This is not how its working on the PTRs atm, the only consecutive crits that are not generating charges are those that come after every 3rd crit. Unless I am misunderstanding your math, it looks like you are eliminating all consecutive crits from generating charges.

Rebaseke · 10/29/07, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Tejs

I don't believe Rebaseke's math is right, but I believe this is how it goes:

2.2 Versions
A = (Minimum Lightning Bolt Damage Range + 0.857 * Spellpower)
B = (Maximum Lightning Bolt Damage Range + 0.857 * Spellpower)
C = (A + B) / 2
D = (C * (100 - Critical Hit Chance)) + (2*C * (Critical Hit Chance))
E = ((D * 0.95) + (2D * 0.05)) * 1.05 * ((100 - (17 - Spell Hit Chance)) / 100)

E will be the average lightning bolt damage you will do in a raid setting when factoring in your spellpower, critical hit chance, lightning overload, and spell hit chance. No external buffs.

2.3 Versions
A = (Minimum Lightning Bolt Damage Range + 0.714 * Spellpower)
B = (Maximum Lightning Bolt Damage Range + 0.714 * Spellpower)
C = (A + B) / 2
D = (C * (100 - Critical Hit Chance)) + (2*C * (Critical Hit Chance))
E = ((D * 0.80) + (1.5D * 0.20)) * 1.05 * ((100 - (17 - Spell Hit Chance)) / 100)

E will be the average lightning bolt damage you will do in a raid setting when factoring in your spellpower, critical hit chance, lightning overload, and spell hit chance. Please notice how some of the formulas changed, notably A, B, and E. No external buffs.

Tejs' Math

Spellpower: 1118 Lightning Damage (T4 Wrath of Air, Totem of the Void)
Spell Critical Chance: 36% (Totem of Wrath)
Spell Hit Chance: 15.80% (Totem of Wrath)

In 2.2, I will deal an average 2125.6 Damage per lightning bolt, factoring in my spell damage, spell critical strike chance, lightning overload, and spell hit chance.

In 2.3, I will deal an average 2019.0 Damage per lightning bolt, factoring in my spell damage, spell critical strike chance, lightning overload and spell hit chance.

This is an average loss of 106.5 Damage per lightning bolt equivalent, and thus an overall decrease in optimal DPS by 53.299 with zero latency. Feel free to peruse my maths for inaccuracies.

Basically if you simplify your calculations you get exactly what i said, except that you also take into account hit (as a 1-miss%/100) modifier, so basically its 0.99 for every decent raiding shaman out there. If you do that you can also factor in the average damage loss because of partial resists, which should be around 4-5%. It shouldnt significantly alter the results of the graph since the modifier is applied to both sides of my equation. Other than that, your equations are exactly the same as mine.

• Binkenstein · 10/29/07, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Moshne

I just played with TLC on test.

- Elemental Mastery + Chain Lightning + 3 mobs = 3 crits, and a TLC proc, the same as live
- Chaining rank 1 LB in melee range (with 4 pc arena bonus), two consecutive crits gave charges
- Elemental Mastery + Chain Lightning when I already had charges up, yielding 1 bolt, no extra charges.

As was suggested above, this change appears to only affect the reapplication of charges after a successful discharge. While that does diminish TLC total value, I'd have to do some numbers to see how significant a degree of change we will see.

Originally Posted by Moshne

This is not how its working on the PTRs atm, the only consecutive crits that are not generating charges are those that come after every 3rd crit. Unless I am misunderstanding your math, it looks like you are eliminating all consecutive crits from generating charges.

I was working on the assumption that the 2.5 second cooldown would be applied to any charge gain. If it's only re-application of a charge after a proc, then C-((C^2)/3) would be the case (5.3% chance reduction, rather than 16% @ 40% crit.)

Miaw · 10/30/07, 8:52 AM

There is still hope.

WoW Forums -> Elemental

" Though not the best thread to plug this into given what was provided, I'd like to state that we are looking into this quite extensively at the moment. "
-Eyonix

Satyrella · 10/30/07, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Miaw

There is still hope.

WoW Forums -> Elemental

" Though not the best thread to plug this into given what was provided, I'd like to state that we are looking into this quite extensively at the moment. "
-Eyonix

I surely hope that they also consider of adding more powerful buffing mechanics. And for the whole talent tree, I personally still dislike many of the talents.(Elemental devastation, lol?).

• Binkenstein · 10/30/07, 5:28 PM

Little bit slow there... http://elitistjerks.com/529576-post137.html

RK · 10/31/07, 1:43 AM

At the risk of looking foolish, a spell penetration question (I KNOW).

I've always been on the wagon that spell penetration is useless in PvE. Certainly it is, no question, in the vast majority of cases. I was just wondering if anyone has spotted any instance or raid mobs at all with any nature resistance which might justify carrying a +spell pen ring or +spell pen elixir.

This has come to mind due to 2 things:

1) I did two heroic ramparts runs this week. I haven't been to ramparts since level 61, so I got a surprise when the dragon at the end (Nazan) resisted my spells like crazy. He clearly had high NR (200-250 probably).

2) I'm very suspicious about tainted elementals on the Vashj fight due to a bad run of resists on them (which led to me requesting a swap to a different area of elementals where I could get help on tainteds). No such issues on Vashj, normal elementals, striders or naga elites. But the same thing recurred with tainteds on 4 separate evenings- could still easily be just dumb bad luck, but I was wondering if anyone has managed to parse their resist rates on stuff over time.

I have zero spell penetration gear.

It made me wonder if there's some mobs with a small amount of NR out there. The mantra has always been that there's nothing worth bothering about due to curses, but there isn't an NR curse.

• Binkenstein · 10/31/07, 2:35 AM

Having spell pen on a cloak wouldn't be a bad idea (is there a decent spell pen cloak out there too?)

I've had queries on tainted elementals in the past, but with limited data I passed it off as an unlucky string.

It'd be worth a try I guess, but remember there's always going to be that base level resist that we can't do anything about.

Rebaseke · 10/31/07, 10:57 AM

I think the rampart drake is resistant to all magic damage and seeing that tainted elementals are using poison as their attack it would be quite logical to assume that they have some kind of base nature resistance just like supremus has some fire resistance.

Daidalos · 10/31/07, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by RK

At the risk of looking foolish, a spell penetration question (I KNOW).

I've always been on the wagon that spell penetration is useless in PvE. Certainly it is, no question, in the vast majority of cases. I was just wondering if anyone has spotted any instance or raid mobs at all with any nature resistance which might justify carrying a +spell pen ring or +spell pen elixir.

This has come to mind due to 2 things:

1) I did two heroic ramparts runs this week. I haven't been to ramparts since level 61, so I got a surprise when the dragon at the end (Nazan) resisted my spells like crazy. He clearly had high NR (200-250 probably).

2) I'm very suspicious about tainted elementals on the Vashj fight due to a bad run of resists on them (which led to me requesting a swap to a different area of elementals where I could get help on tainteds). No such issues on Vashj, normal elementals, striders or naga elites. But the same thing recurred with tainteds on 4 separate evenings- could still easily be just dumb bad luck, but I was wondering if anyone has managed to parse their resist rates on stuff over time.

I have zero spell penetration gear.

It made me wonder if there's some mobs with a small amount of NR out there. The mantra has always been that there's nothing worth bothering about due to curses, but there isn't an NR curse.

I had been thinking along the same lines. I was thinking [Hatefury Mantle] would be nice plus the pen chant to cloak since CoE or CoS does not affect nature. Since I'm not ele for most raids I have to wait till all the locks and mages have hatefury first since almost all of them want it.

• Binkenstein · 11/01/07, 11:02 PM

Put another copy of ShamStats up.

Somehow managed to drop ~400kb off the file size by changing the main page from dozens of absolute references to multiple columns/cells to name references. Kinda surprising really.

Also, once 2.3 is finalised/released, I'll re-check the calcs and add in the rotation weighting (it's sitting in there atm, but the final values still refer to LB/HW)

NastyFu · 11/02/07, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Little bit slow there... http://elitistjerks.com/529576-post137.html

Since 2.3 has been released for background downloading I do not longer believe in a last minute change on our class.

Daidalos · 11/02/07, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by NastyFu

Since 2.3 has been released for background downloading I do not longer believe in a last minute change on our class.

It doesn't look good.. however they frequently release background downloads for things that do not change as long as the things that might change are small.