[Shaman] Elemental Shaman DPS Spreadsheet? - Page 6

Kasi · 07/27/07, 12:32 PM

Easiest way to get up the spell damage is enchants to gloves and bracers. Obviously getting the Gavel would help a lot too.

Talents for the most part seem fine, however I'd try to get a third point in the spell hit/threat talent if you're doing kara. As well for the healing part with the spell crit you'll be packing in elemental gear I think its a good idea to get ancestral fortitude, since you probably will have more crit than any healer in your raids. Just toss a mid rank chain heal on the mt every once in a while and you should have a decent shot of critting on him and proccing the 25% armor. Take points out of totemic focus for that.

Also because of going for a more resto'ish build, your spell hit won't be near full on bosses. Since you don't have the totem, or 2% from the elemental talent or the 3% from resto. Only leaving you at 4% spell hit from talents compared to the 12% most raiding shamans get. So unless you have a lot of spell hit lying around, your damage is going to suffer vs bosses.

Squrf · 07/27/07, 1:11 PM

There is no truly happy medium between healing and elemental DPS as a shaman. 30/0/31 lets you be moderately decent DPS while having mana tide and midlevel resto talents, but you miss out on either Totem of Wrath or the top end awesome resto talents. 40/0/21 doesn't give you the great caster group buff of TOW, nor will you have the healing ability to do anything but patch heal and throw a NS+HW in a clutch situation...and you're not going to have the +healing to really save the day with it anyways.

Steiny · 07/27/07, 1:16 PM

When I want to dps it most likely wouldn't be with this build inside kara. In saying that, it would be nice to have some options when I was in arena's.

I haven't respec'd yet, a little short on cash, but when I do, I'll probably go those few change and tweaks to make sure its pvp worthy and then see how arena's go with that.

Steiny · 07/27/07, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Squrf

There is no truly happy medium between healing and elemental DPS as a shaman. 30/0/31 lets you be moderately decent DPS while having mana tide and midlevel resto talents, but you miss out on either Totem of Wrath or the top end awesome resto talents. 40/0/21 doesn't give you the great caster group buff of TOW, nor will you have the healing ability to do anything but patch heal and throw a NS+HW in a clutch situation...and you're not going to have the +healing to really save the day with it anyways.

I know what you're saying and that's my exact problem. =(

Squrf · 07/27/07, 4:03 PM

Well, then you really need to decide what path to follow for raiding: caster DPS / group support, or healer / group support. Either way, you're not completely gimp if you throw on opposite gear, but neglecting the important support talents just makes you mediocre at both roles.

For my part... The Armory

Any advice from higher end elementalists on how to better my gear? I just ground my LW up last night for the Hurricane Boots and will be making the bracers in the next couple of days and sticking spell damage on them. I have a pair of T4 gloves that I swap in for boss fights for added hit and 2pc bonus, but usually use the S2 gloves. I'm up for a Lightning Capacitor whenever it decides to drop (5 weeks dry). We have T4 on farm and have downed VR, Lurker, and Hydross. Should I make the craftable epic chestpiece or pick up Merciless? I'm saving my arena points for a weapon since our luck with caster DPS weapons is horrible.

Kelorius · 07/27/07, 9:22 PM

Squrf:
The crafted LW set is amazing. Make all 3 pieces of it. Other advice is put 40 spell damage on your weapon. Pick up Ring of Recurrence (Chess Event) or the trash drop ring to go with exalted Violet Eye ring.

I am not a fan of T4 elemental gear outside of helm and shoulders -- however I would use any piece to get the 2 piece bonus as it is a very good iecbonus. The other pes just are severely lacking. Both gloves and legs having no spell crit on them for elemental shaman is rediculous.

Dicho · 07/28/07, 1:11 AM

Originally Posted by Hodan

That's one thing to learn. Shocks are basically identical to LBs and such in damage except they cost more mana, and can't proc LO. They also crit 11% less. He should never shock (unless he's running on a gruul shatter and wants to maximize his DPS).

Movement based fights aside.
A shock has an effective cast time of 1.5(gcd), gains less from spell dmg then your LB or even CL. My LB hits for ~1900, crits for ~4000, raid buffed, my CL around the same(without SS goodness ofc). FS even with misery, CoE and Scorch is lucky to hit ~2000 total. ES, and gods forbid FrS are even worse. My point is, as your spell dmg increases, shocks become less and less "equal" with LB and CL. Their only real value is to give you damage when forced to move.

♦ blindworld · 08/01/07, 7:27 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

I would be highly surprised if they stacked, as you'd have 5 draenei in a party with +5% hit from stacking auras. Alliance don't need any more OP racial abilities (gg fear ward)

I think you misunderstood. The Draenei aura will only ever been shown once on the buff list, so to a non-Draenei they will never see more than 1% of each buff. A Draenei will never have his own aura shown on his buff list, but he still receives the buff from it. When a 2nd Draenei joins him in group, he will now recieve that Draenei's aura on his buff list. If 3 more Dreneis join the group, he will still only see 1 aura. For a non-Draenei there is no question, the buffs with never stack. The question is if the other Draenei's buff will stack with your own, since you are seeing the aura show up on your buff list, giving only Draeneis the ability to sometimes have +2% hit based on party make up.

It's something that's come up in my guild quite a bit recently, and I haven't been able to find an answer for them one way or the other.

Torrential · 08/01/07, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

With their usually high crit rates I would think that TLC would be a really good trinket for them.

Base Crit	   Talents/Totem	LBs per LC Proc	DMG from LC per LB	      +dmg Equivalent				
0.25		0.39		8.33		90		104.65
0.26		0.40		8.11		92.5		107.56
0.27		0.41		7.89		95		110.47
0.28		0.42		7.69		97.5		113.37
0.29		0.43		7.50		100		116.28
0.30		0.44		7.32		102.5		119.19
0.31		0.45		7.14		105		122.09
0.32		0.46		6.98		107.5		125.00
0.33		0.47		6.82		110		127.91
0.34		0.48		6.67		112.5		130.81
0.35		0.49		6.52		115		133.72
0.36		0.50		6.38		117.5		136.63
0.37		0.51		6.25		120		139.53
0.38		0.52		6.12		122.5		142.44
0.39		0.53		6.00		125		145.35

Can you find any other +100 damage trinkets? :p

Note: The numbers are only valid for a shaman using LB with ToW. With damage coefficients and all that the numbers aren't accurate for anything else.

slant · 08/02/07, 4:10 AM

A poster in this thread (warning: blizz forums, stupidity abounds) indicates that searing totem has a 17% coefficient per shot, crits for double damage, and uses your hit/crit. "Common knowledge" was that it had an 8% coefficient, crit for 50%, normal level-based hit, and 5% crit. But I don't know that it was ever actually tested.

Can anyone corroborate this?

Binkenstein · 08/02/07, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by slant

A poster in this thread (warning: blizz forums, stupidity abounds) indicates that searing totem has a 17% coefficient per shot, crits for double damage, and uses your hit/crit. "Common knowledge" was that it had an 8% coefficient, crit for 50%, normal level-based hit, and 5% crit. But I don't know that it was ever actually tested.

Can anyone corroborate this?

There's one really big point I think everyone is missing with the whole Searing V ToW arguement.

Range.

Searing is shock range or less, so you have to be closer to the boss than you would normally be. IMO the "difference" in damage is made up by that fact.

slant · 08/02/07, 6:15 PM

Even with a 17% coefficient, ToW is still better for 25mans with >=3 dps casters without capped spell hit in the group.

But can anyone confirm/disprove that coefficient? Also does it really crit double damage and use your hit/crit?

• frmorrison · 08/02/07, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by slant

Even with a 17% coefficient, ToW is still better for 25mans with >=3 dps casters without capped spell hit in the group.

Also does it really crit double damage and use your hit/crit?

I agree with the first post, giving caster more hit allows them to wear different gear, and crit is always nice to have. I don't know the coefficient on Searing though. Healing stream is 8%, so it would make sense if Searing was the same.

Ever since 2.0 (and maybe even before), the 21 Elemental talent makes fire totem crit for double damage. However, since the Totem counts as a "pet", your hit and crit will not affect it (Totem of Wrath should, but that would would require two Elemental Shaman in a group).

Originally Posted by blindworld

. If 3 more Dreneis join the group, he will still only see 1 aura. For a non-Draenei there is no question, the buffs with never stack. The question is if the other Draenei's buff will stack with your own, since you are seeing the aura show up on your buff list.

Why would the buff stack just for Draeni? It shows up in the Draeni's buff list because it is a group buff, so there is no reason for the spell hit to stack. However, it could have been coded incorrectly. If it stacks (which I highly doubt), then a group of 5 Draeni would make a difference (an added 4% to hit is easy to see against a higher level mob).

Franklin · 08/04/07, 9:22 AM

Taken from WoW Forums -> Talent changes from Blizzcon on the Official Boards somewhat mentioned in the Enhancement thread here but it seems another change to Elemental Focus is incoming;

'Elemental Focus: After a damage spell crit, your next 2 offensive spells cost 40% less mana.'

It will be interesting to some testing on this for PVE once it gets on the PTR – right now I'm not sure what to make of it.

Oprahwinfury · 08/04/07, 3:50 PM

Which trinket is better for Lightning Bolt spam, [Icon of the Silver Crescent] or [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]?

I read the whole Mage Trinket Advice thread but that didn't really make me any wiser

Dicho · 08/05/07, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Franklin

Taken from WoW Forums -> Talent changes from Blizzcon on the Official Boards somewhat mentioned in the Enhancement thread here but it seems another change to Elemental Focus is incoming;

'Elemental Focus: After a damage spell crit, your next 2 offensive spells cost 40% less mana.'

It will be interesting to some testing on this for PVE once it gets on the PTR – right now I'm not sure what to make of it.

It is questionable if this change is a benifit, as crit streaks will become less valuable.

What annoys me is that blizzard completely overlooks the synergy between elemental shamans and rambo shamans in these changes.
Enhancement should not be shocking constantly, or atleast only be shocking flameshock if there is an elemental shaman present. Eating SS debuffs with a low dmg ES doesnt make sense when a LB can gain so much more dmg from it.
To make shocks better for rambo only makes sense in a synergy point of view if they change the way flameshock works, or change SS debuff to be a flat 20% with no charges for a short period of time.

Binkenstein · 08/05/07, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Oprahwinfury

Which trinket is better for Lightning Bolt spam, [Icon of the Silver Crescent] or [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]?

I read the whole Mage Trinket Advice thread but that didn't really make me any wiser

Fairly good question.

[edit] Been looking at wrath for a while. Damn darkmoon cards are a pain to model >.<[/edit]

Xabu · 08/06/07, 1:48 AM

Originally Posted by Oprahwinfury

Which trinket is better for Lightning Bolt spam, [Icon of the Silver Crescent] or [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]?

I read the whole Mage Trinket Advice thread but that didn't really make me any wiser

Not sure how to work this into a spreadsheet but I think a timeline could suffice. Forgive the vacuum-style testing as I'm not sure how to dynamically model trinkets for any situation, but assuming you remembered to pop Icon everytime the cooldown was up, and assuming there was no period longer than ten seconds between LB casts for the Darkmoon buff to fade. 6 minute test example, 2-second LB cast is 30 a minute, 60 for every Icon activation, 180 casts for a 6-minute fight.

First column is time into the fight, second is individual casts and how much +dmg benefit they're gaining at the time of cast, as well as number of casts.

Icon:
00:00-00:20 - (43 x 10) + (155 x 10) = 1980
00:20-02:00 - 43 x 50 = 2150
2:00-2:20 - (43 x 10) + (155 x 10) = 1980
2:20-4:00 - (43 x 50) = 2150
4:00-4:20 - (43 x 10) + (155 x 10) = 1980
4:20-6:00 - 43 x 50 = 2150

Darkmoon Card:
00:00-00:02 - 0
00:02-00:04 - 8
00:04-00:06 - 16
00:06-00:08 - 24
00:08-00:10 - 32
00:10-00:12 - 40
00:12-00:14 - 48
00:14-00:16 - 56
00:16-00:18 - 64
00:18-00:20 - 72
00:20-00:22 - 80
00:22-06:00 - 80 x 169 = 13520

Total +Dmg Modifications for a 6-minute fight
Icon - 12390
Darkmoon Card - 13960

If I did some math wrong somewhere, someone please feel free to correct me, I'm kind of tired as I write this. But it appears in this case for a 6-minute fight, you'll be gaining more benefit from the Darkmoon Card. At the moment I'm unsure how dynamically this will change for longer or shorter fights, but it's simple enough to setup to test.

I'll look this over when I'm actually awake and see if it still makes sense to me.

Binkenstein · 08/06/07, 9:26 PM

Done some modeling of Icon v Crusader and this how it came out
(blue is crusader, red is icon)

So for elemental shaman, I'd say Crusader > Icon. Plus you don't have to worry about activating it.

Next trick is to see how I can model crit trinkets in this manner :p

Oprahwinfury · 08/07/07, 7:08 AM

That's excellent news, thank you for taking the time to figure this out for us that fail at math

subscience · 08/07/07, 2:42 PM

Hm. According to that graph, the Icon and Crusade deck seem neck-and-neck. I'll probably stick with the Icon since I can control the proc and really pack the damage on Heroisms. Crusade seems better for trash.

• frmorrison · 08/07/07, 3:24 PM

The Icon has an average damage of around 67, the Crusader has around 72 (due to ramp up time) over 5 minute period.

However, they are pretty close in power.

Fallus · 08/07/07, 4:42 PM

If I did some math wrong somewhere, someone please feel free to correct me, I'm kind of tired as I write this. But it appears in this case for a 6-minute fight, you'll be gaining more benefit from the Darkmoon Card. At the moment I'm unsure how dynamically this will change for longer or shorter fights, but it's simple enough to setup to test.

Your math seems to be right, though you and bink are not taking into consideration OL procs and TLC procs, which both help rank up your Crusade card. Not that it makes a huge difference, but it does boost up your early Spell dmg buff from Crusade.

as for:

Hm. According to that graph, the Icon and Crusade deck seem neck-and-neck. I'll probably stick with the Icon since I can control the proc and really pack the damage on Heroisms. Crusade seems better for trash.

It's more situational IMHO. Yes you can control your Heroism better, but if you can keep the card up the whole fight long, it's quite a nice little buff. At work right now, but will try to verify the bonus you get out of Icon during your heroism vs jsut keeping crusade.

thanks for the graph by the way

Binkenstein · 08/07/07, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Fallus

Your math seems to be right, though you and bink are not taking into consideration OL procs and TLC procs, which both help rank up your Crusade card. Not that it makes a huge difference, but it does boost up your early Spell dmg buff from Crusade.

as for:

It's more situational IMHO. Yes you can control your Heroism better, but if you can keep the card up the whole fight long, it's quite a nice little buff. At work right now, but will try to verify the bonus you get out of Icon during your heroism vs jsut keeping crusade.

thanks for the graph by the way

Assuming that you will get 3 crits or a 1 in 20 OL proc may decrease the "build up" time, but this is a worst-case scenario.

I'd like to point out that this graph is for 6 minutes. If I extend it to 8 I expect to see that the Icon can't pass Crusader with it's "on Use" phase.

Anyway, the graph is looking at 2 second casts, and the dmg bonus to them (not the actual damage output), and assumes that you'll get 1 LB off every 2 seconds.

I'm toying with the calc atm to extend it to 8 minutes (4 Icon uses), as well as making the whole thing cast-time dependant (which, incidentally, shows that the higher the cast time, the better Crusader is over Icon).

Might try throwing some other trinkets in there as well, but that will require getting some crit/dmg comparisons going so I can add in the Sextant & TLC for starters.

And I still haven't finished my item comparisons either! >.<

Binkenstein · 08/07/07, 9:05 PM

Well, working in crit to the comparisons gives an interesting change.

Icon seems to scale better with crit, compared to Crusader, although I'm doing my usual average-crit-effects out modelling.

I'll see about putting that spreadsheet up later today (maybe from home now I have my PC back and working)