Do you plan on ever including spell haste into your spreadsheet?
Also, how do you guys feel spell haste effects procs such as LO and LC? It would seem to me as if 1% crit = 1% haste when it comes to this, but I might be missing something.
Hm. According to that graph, the Icon and Crusade deck seem neck-and-neck. I'll probably stick with the Icon since I can control the proc and really pack the damage on Heroisms. Crusade seems better for trash.
ok here are some numbers.
Same test for 6:00 of LB spam with OL or TLC procs, but added heroismin the calculations. For the heroism data, I did this:
During the heroism, you can generate 3374 bonus spell damage with Icon and 2240 with Crusade card. As for the time where you do not have your heroism on, you do 7980 with the Icon and 12480 with the Card.
Other than the sequence of CL, gear & enchants is there anything else I can be doing to maximize my dps as an elemental shaman?
Proper group setup is really the only other thing. Last night I had 2xBM Hunters in my group (I always have a Shadow Priest) and the stacking FI was pretty insane.
Edit--
Originally Posted by Fallus
ok here are some numbers.
Same test for 6:00 of LB spam with OL or TLC procs, but added heroismin the calculations. For the heroism data, I did this:
During the heroism, you can generate 3374 bonus spell damage with Icon and 2240 with Crusade card. As for the time where you do not have your heroism on, you do 7980 with the Icon and 12480 with the Card.
FYI -- Crusade translates to an added 3.79 DPS over 6 minutes according to this data. Thanks for the numbers!
Edit 2--
Originally Posted by Nennx
Do you plan on ever including spell haste into your spreadsheet?
Also, how do you guys feel spell haste effects procs such as LO and LC? It would seem to me as if 1% crit = 1% haste when it comes to this, but I might be missing something.
I'm dying to know how spell haste affects overall DPS and whether or not it's worth dropping CL completely from a single-target rotation if you can get a decent level of haste. It'd definitely save a lot of mana, even moreso with the Ashtongue trinket (if it's any good).
Do you plan on ever including spell haste into your spreadsheet?
Also, how do you guys feel spell haste effects procs such as LO and LC? It would seem to me as if 1% crit = 1% haste when it comes to this, but I might be missing something.
Ummm, it's already in there...
On ShamStats it's there already, Rotation has it, and ShamanDPS is pre-2.1 as I have yet to update it.
Other than the sequence of CL, gear & enchants is there anything else I can be doing to maximize my dps as an elemental shaman?
Get quartz, make a stopcast macro, and get used to using it. That will be the best way to improve your dps if you already have the above.
I currently am trying out haste in our raids and will let you know what I find out. With my current haste gear I am at about 1.91 seconds per lb cast so we will see if its a noticable difference over time. I am sacrificing 1-2% crit in the process which may reduce any gains.
I think I need to relook at my mana regen calculations.
Not so much how it calculates, but rather changing the value on mp5 so that as you get more it is worth less.
Thought about a practical maximum, and do a 1-(Current/Max) multiplier, but that's a little linear. Leaning more towards a log scale so that 1 more mp5 is worth less at 150 than 50.
It's just a matter of nutting out how this should be accomplished.
I downloaded the Gear spreadsheet, and it looks like a great tool. However when I sort weapons on DEP all calculated values turn to #N/A. Any idea how I can solve this? It works fine for all other slots.
Edit: When I select another weapon on the first page in my gear selection the same thing happens.
Last edited by Base : 08/15/07 at 11:46 AM.
Reason: added info
I downloaded the Gear spreadsheet, and it looks like a great tool. However when I sort weapons on DEP all calculated values turn to #N/A. Any idea how I can solve this? It works fine for all other slots.
Edit: When I select another weapon on the first page in my gear selection the same thing happens.
The problem appears to be the range given in the VLOOKUP function for all the rows on the first page from the weapon row on down.
All the rows prior have the range from 1:100.
All the rows from weapon on down have the range set to 1:22.
In order to fix it you need to change the range in each column for all those rows.
I edited in some items I had that were not in the list, tried sorting them all again, and suddenly it was working again. If I encounter the problem again I will try this solution, but for now it seems to work again.
So I've finally started doing some raiding on my shaman. Mainly just kara right now, but there are some fights that are extremely extremely testing my mana pool.
So far from what I've seen:
Attumen : No issue
Moroes : A little bit, but mainly since I was the kiter and spamming Frost Shock, I also didn't pot as smartly and promptly as I could have.
Big Bad Wolf : No issue
Curator : No issue
Aran : Babysitting Earth shock a lot, no issue
Prince : Sort of an issue, depends on how much dps everyone else is doing.
Nightbane : Similar to prince, only time we did him was with a high dps group so it might be an issue.
Illhoof : Ugh, major major issue. Between the constant magma totems and just how long the fight takes it leaves me toast. Last night ran completely out of mana on that fight.
I don't think having a shadow priest is an option really. JoW is occasionally up, mainly on long boss fights.
I was saving up badges to get my Icon, but I said screw it after the raid last night and bought the totem for 15. I roughly calculated that is worth around 55 mp5 if just doing LB spam. That sound about right?
Also have a question on speccing. Due to how the elemental tree is constructed, everything is divided above and below that 20 point line. I'd love to not put so many points in improved shocks, but not much else to stick it below 20. Can anyone chime in with their opinion on what to give up to get 2 points more in crit chance? LO and Totem of Wrath are no nos. So is range on nukes. So is time off your main nukes. So it leaves threat/hit or mana regen.
Which leads me to think that even with being mana starved on some fights giving up 2 points there is the right choice. I tried to figure out the math for whether 2% crit gave me more mana regen than 4% of my int as mp5 (which I think is a bit over 400 raid buffed, thus 4% of that being 16 mp5) If my nuke costs 297, (lets say 300) and a crit makes it 120. That means a crit saves me 180 mana. If i crit 100% of the time that would be each crit gives me 1.8 mana. So 2% crit gives me 3.6 mana for a 2 second spell? Which makes it 9mp5? Please tell me if I fubared the math here. Although I think one thing is that going to using that totem will drop the mp5 I get from more crit. While it wouldn't drop the mp5 I get from unrelenting storms.
For consumable usage, basically supers along with adepts. Also wizard oil. I suppose I should go out and get some major magebloods for the long fights, or would it be better to get a flask of mp5 or a flask of supreme power? Oh plus I'm a LW who regularly uses drums of restoration, which does help a bit.
So any advice on:
1) Spec choices (unrelenting vs tidal mastery vs ?)
2) Gear options
3) Consumable usage
So any advice on:
1) Spec choices (unrelenting vs tidal mastery vs ?)
I'd recommend maxing out nature's guidance to get closer to the hit cap. You will see a noticable dps increase. The spell hit cap is 16%. We get 12% from talents + totem so you will need to find 4% from gear. You are almost halfway there.
Reverberation I found to be more of a pvp talent and not worth the gains per point spent. I'd recomend elemental warding which is highly underrated. If you can shave off 2 pts in elemental you can put those into tidal master to max it out. Its up to you.
2) Gear options
Get that icon and heroic badge shield. Prince neck and dagger will also be great upgrades for awhile. Unfortunately that totem of the pulsing earth is trash for us. The way blizzard calculates reductions puts the reduction before convection and clearcasting. It reduces its effectiveness. Unless that has changed since I last tested it we only save approx 17-18 mana on avg per lightning bolt.
3) Consumable usage
I prefer Flask of Supreme Power if I am going to flask. For double elixirs I use adepts + draenic wisdom. The draenic wisdom provides more mana, small crit chance increase, and is effected by unrelenting storm.
1) I normally bring in a couple pieces of gear change for bosses. Mainly scryer's bloodgem and the exalted CE ring. (or the spirit shard one if I don't need as much hit) Add in there that I'm always grouped with a draenei caster and that adds 1% hit you didn't account for. That is why I felt I could live without being maxed there.
On the point of the top 21 elemental talents, well thats the thing. There is nothing good to drop there. 5 points in Lightning Mastery are a must, so is 1 in Fury and 1 in Elemental Mastery. 2 in Storm reach as well. Same with 3 in precision. You gotta get the totem, so 5 in LO and the 1 for totem as well. Which leaves me 3 points. And yeah one talent, that being unrelenting storms. I can see how I could live without that with a shadow priest, but I don't have one.
Good point on Elemental warding yeah I think would be good, mainly for Aran, Prince, maybe Nightbane (not sure)
3) Too late on the totem, I already bought it. I checked it out last night after equipping it. Pre totem my LB was costing 297. After it was costing 274. True its not the full 25 difference because of them calculating the minus from totem before the % change, but I think 23 off each spell would add up for long fights without a shadow priest. At lets say 27 LB casts a minute, that is 621 mana/minute, which is 52 mp5. I don't get a shadow priest, so mana is the issue.
3) Yeah. 30 int is 3 mp5 with unrelenting (if maxed), maybe 0.5% crit and 450 mana or basically 2 LBs. I don't know if that is better than 16 mp5.
I downloaded the Gear spreadsheet, and it looks like a great tool. However when I sort weapons on DEP all calculated values turn to #N/A. Any idea how I can solve this? It works fine for all other slots.
Edit: When I select another weapon on the first page in my gear selection the same thing happens.
Ah, good point. I was going through and updating those references, but obviously I hadn't finished doing them.
Originally Posted by Kasi
blah blah blah mana issues
So any advice on:
1) Spec choices (unrelenting vs tidal mastery vs ?)
2) Gear options
3) Consumable usage
Would be appreciated. Thanks.
When I ran Kara as elemental I didn't really have any mana issues at all.
I did have the heroic totem, and was mostly spamming LB. Illhoof I didn't drop aoe totems as they are kinda crap, and Prince I may have potted once or twice (got 2nd on DPS just behind a raiding mage who was being a little slack :p )
1) spec wise, if you're running low on mana, I would go with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft as 2% more regen from int is probably better than EM at that point
2) Farming up the heroic epics/blues would be a good point to start with, or being a leatherworker.
3) I'm going to add in a consumable list in the near future, because aside from Adepts I'm not sure what buffs I should use myself :p
Lol, well you could took a look at my armory. For my gear I have full Netherstrike, Season 2 PVP gloves/shouders, SMV hat, SSC crafted boots, LC gavel, UB pants, etc. Pretty much the best pre raid gear I can get in nearly all slots. I could get the badges shield and trinket, but other than that there really isn't much I can do. My crit is really good, it's just even with that it doesn't seem good enough to sustain on fights. But that could be more of an issue of raid dps and fight length than anything else.
Looks fairly ok then, although I think I have a bit more regen/crit than what you do (barely), although I've been picking up a few raiding items that the dps casters don't want/need.
I assume this is more of a PvP setup rather than PvE?
Totem is the Void one from mech or the pulsing earth badge one.
Trinkets are currently Xiri's gift and a green dmg/on use trinket. I also sub in the spirit shard ring, Scryer's Bloodgem or the CE exalted ring if I need more hit.
Most of my stuff is socketed to keep the bonus if possible. So on blues I go 6 sta, 5 dmg, yellows 4 spell crit, 5 spell dmg and reds 9 dmg (shoulders currently 7, but I'm getting the epic 12 dmg pvp gem next for that slot). When I get the honor to get veteran's bracers/belt, I might resocket netherstrike but not sure. That's the thing that depresses me about Kara. Very little upgrades. Hell I looked at T5/T6 even and outside of set gear there is scant options available. Even the badge shield is underwhelming. For actual dps what do I get out of it compared to my blue? 1 int and 4 spell damage. Sure the 16 stamina is nice, but its hardly like I lack stamina wearing 2 piece merciless. Hence I'm looking for the mindblade, TLC, nature dmg trash ring and the necklace from prince. Plus T4 hat, maybe T4 shoulders for 2 piece bonus.
As for sustainability part of it might be just that raid damage was uneven. I think I along with one mage were quite a bit ahead of anyone else, and perhaps that lack of group dps caused fights to go longer. For gear I don't think I can get much mp5. Would the Nightbane shield's 7mp5 be better than the 21 spell crit from either shield option I go for? There is very little stuff out there at all, like I said above. It seems I already have a lot of the best stuff I could get for a very long time. Unless I do what I think you suggested and ugh, start wearing cloth. I don't know if I could stomach that though.
I don't even know if I would like taking a point out of EM and putting it in more mana regen. Tops I have 450 or so int in raids, lets say 500 tops if I get kings. 1 point in that talent is between 8 and 10 mp5 right? (I had it 50% too low earlier) A guaranteed free spell every 3 minutes is 300 mana/3, or 100 mana/minute. Or 100/12 would be 8ish mp5. Given the bit more mana given back on the next cast and I think mana wise EM might be better than one point in unrelenting storms. Plus of course the situational use and advantage of having a crit on group for free.
My Shaman is my alt, and I picked up leatherworking about 2 weeks ago for the set. I had visited Kara twice before but was resto then because of lack of healers in those runs. Yesterday was the first time I really went to kara DPS-specced to test my damage. Here is a link to the armory so you can check my spec and gear.
Since I tend to pull aggro quite a bit in heroics :P I decided to take it easy and not use any buffs at start, only mana potions. Unfortunately no shadowpriest available. Only when we got to curator I decided to pot up and used a +damage foodbuff, adepts and a superior wizard oil.
At Attumen I ran OOM in the second phase, maybe at around 60%, so had to wait for the cooldown of my mana potion. Moroes went a bit better, but I still went OOM when he was at 30% or so (and 2 mobs left). At opera we had the Wolf event, and I had to hold back a bit on damage which was good for my mana regen. At curator I ran OOM again when he was maybe at 40% if I remember correct.
So I had no mana regen buffs, did use mana pots but should have timed them better. So part of the mana problems could have been solved by consumables use aimed at some mana regen, better mana potting, and not using chain lightning at all. But I was still surprised at how fast I went OOM. Next time it will go better since it was only my first Kara as elemental shaman, but still the OOMness surprised me. It might also have had to do with low raid DPS
Here is a WWS from the evening for those interested. if anyone has any tips gearwise / specwise / skillwise it would be very welcome. I still have 30 heroic badges to spend and not sure what to spend them on. I see arguements the totem might not be worth it, so then it would be the shield or the headpiece, but I really cant figure out how to rate that metagem slot. The 3% crit gem might be worth switching my current helmet out for, but the spreadhseet cannot model it unfortunately (or at least, I dont know how to edit that in)
Ow and yes, I did run Mechanaar a lot for the totem (exalted by now) but no luck yet... one of those things...
Abase essentially has my gear, almost to a tee. I was lucky on the mech totem drop, but unlucky so far on the Arc trinket drop. I would like one passive trinket, but once I get Icon that will be good and eventually I'll get TLC. I also considered doing what he does for belt and just putting 18 spell dmg in, but I use it now for pvp and felt a bit of stamina never hurts.
One thing I've found is to pot and pot often and early. I BG a lot so I have a lot of extra AV marks. The PVP token pots are pretty nice. I was able to use those the other night for Attumen, Moroes, Curator, Aran instead of the supers. Basically just gotta see how your first 2k mana goes and how the bosses health goes. If he's going down fast, then feel free to use the lesser pot. If not (like Illhoof or prince) use supers.
I think the biggest thing is to not use Chain Lightning. Between that and totems on Illhoof it drained me. But on single target fights (like Attumen, Moroes, Curator (was on add duty), Aran, etc) my mana wasn't as big a deal.
In general for an elemental shaman, don't use CL for single target damage unless you're in a shadow priest group. Even with a spriest, you may want to do a 4:1 or 5:1 to last the fight out unless you're very aggressive with potting.
Kasi, you're very much underestimating the use of EM for one reason - a guaranteed clearcast proc. You should almost always be using EM on CL, which is a lot more mana saved than a normal LB. EM+CL+LB adds up to quite a bit more than 300 mana over 3 minutes. I personally chose to drop Storm Reach instead of 3/5 US. The range difference really isn't that hard to get used to.
Hi,
I've begun raiding as an elemental shaman in my guild. I have about 800 nature damage and 23% crit. I don't do too badly, but! I have a few questions...
1). There is a debate in guild that needs some help settling. ToW vs Searing Totem. Basically the question is do you gain more dps from the damage searing does or the crit/hit your group gains?
2).My DPS is pretty good 725+ usually however my dps time is always very low in comparison to the rest of the raid. Seems as though i am spamming LB as fast as i can haha I do throw a CL in the rotation (maybe 5:1). What causes this? And how do I correct it to get more dps?
In general for an elemental shaman, don't use CL for single target damage unless you're in a shadow priest group. Even with a spriest, you may want to do a 4:1 or 5:1 to last the fight out unless you're very aggressive with potting.
Kasi, you're very much underestimating the use of EM for one reason - a guaranteed clearcast proc. You should almost always be using EM on CL, which is a lot more mana saved than a normal LB. EM+CL+LB adds up to quite a bit more than 300 mana over 3 minutes. I personally chose to drop Storm Reach instead of 3/5 US. The range difference really isn't that hard to get used to.
Oh yes I always use EM on Chain Lightning. That is a given. The point was I was trying to actually compare EM to one point of unrelenting storm. Now if I didn't have EM I obviously can't say I'm using EM on CL. And if mana is such a big issue on those sorts of fights, than I can't be using CL at all (unless I know its a clearcast, like when relaying totems after a crit). So yeah if I didn't have EM I wouldn't be using CL and thus I can't really say I'm saving 750 mana, because I wouldn't be spending 750 mana for an extra 100 dmg nuke.
So I wanted to get the worst case out of the way which is a guaranteed free 300 mana every 3 minutes, which is still at worst equivalent to one point in US. Honestly with smart usage of EM you can make sure to get much more than 300. One thing I like to do is use EM before laying down totems so I can do back to back CLs. Very handy on fights like Curator (when sometimes double adds), Illhoof (pretty much always going to hit 3), etc.
Searing does give a good deal of damage. I believe mine hits for about 200 and crits for around 400. Which is like 100-130 dps or so. Totem of wrath with 3% hit and 3% crit for a caster group I think would be better, especially if your casters are basing things around getting the hit from the totem and thus are socketing/gearing towards having that 3% hit from you. My LBs in raids hit for around 1700, crit 3400, so I think each point of crit is about 17 dmg on the nuke, so 50 for the totem just to me over 2 seconds, which is 25 dps.
Hit gains are harder to say, but its probably pretty nice on bosses. Add in that is just for me, thus if I have 2-3 other casters in my group totem of wrath will really pull ahead. Especially when you take into account searing totem's higher cost plus searing totem needing to be refreshed twice as much plus the issue of having to move in pretty close to get the thing to hit the damn boss. (I do not feel comfy nuking at the range at which Searing Totem can hit a boss)
1). There is a debate in guild that needs some help settling. ToW vs Searing Totem. Basically the question is do you gain more dps from the damage searing does or the crit/hit your group gains?
The people who argue Searing vs. ToW are usually the people who are trying to get away with raiding as a PvP spec (NS). ToW is amazing.
Also, for those having mana issues, I'd look into 4/5 T4. I can do a full bore 4xLB/1xCL rotation for the entire length of, say, the Kael'thas fight and rarely have to use a pot (though I do have an S. Priest in my group). My guild is in deep BT and I don't plan on replacing 4/5 T4 until at least 2/4 T6.
(FYI 4/5 T4 gives you a persistent 15 second long buff that reduces every cast made in that 15 second window by 270 mana. No internal cooldown and the proc refreshes the buff. It's pretty broken).
08/07/07, 10:12 PM
I tried to figure out the math for whether 2% crit gave me more mana regen than 4% of my int as mp5 (which I think is a bit over 400 raid buffed, thus 4% of that being 16 mp5) If my nuke costs 297, (lets say 300) and a crit makes it 120. That means a crit saves me 180 mana. If i crit 100% of the time that would be each crit gives me 1.8 mana. So 2% crit gives me 3.6 mana for a 2 second spell? Which makes it 9mp5? Please tell me if I fubared the math here. Although I think one thing is that going to using that totem will drop the mp5 I get from more crit. While it wouldn't drop the mp5 I get from unrelenting storms.
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