How advantageous is Haste rating for a Shaman? Items like Ring of Ancestral Knowledge and Flashfire Girdle force other stats to be lost (spell crit and damage/mp5 respectively). If it is worth persuing, at what point does it become not worth it? Would pairing the rings (as they are not unique) be good?
Right now most of my gear has a lot of mana efficiency and I'm looking to lower that in exchange for raw DPS, but without crippling myself in a long fight.
In my opinion, there are 3 worthwhile items in terms of haste from BT. The 2 rings, and the cloth bracers. You just lose way too much damage and crit by dropping BoB or Antheron's Noose for Flashfire Girdle. I say the rings are worthwhile mostly because there are no other crit/dmg rings except the hyjal one, which really doesn't become better until exalted. The +nature ring lacks alot of stats, so it is easily replaced. The other BT ring has no stats and has hit rating; I'd pass it to someone who actually needs the +hit, though this one can come close in terms of pure dmg. As for bracers ... Supremus' or cloth haste is a toss up. Basically do you value 28haste or 24crit more? I personally rate 1% haste = 1% crit when deciding which is better for DPS. After the patch, they will all be extremely worth it, imo. As for the GCD thing; no one is perfect; the only time I ever run into GCD problems is when I CL during heroism.
From looking at my spot on the damage meter, since I've picked up haste, my damage has gone up. I can't say its significant, but I can't really say it's minor. Theres alot of other factors as well, since I've gotten 2 new pieces of T6 since I've started using haste. It can be hard to determine really, but I still use haste because it feels like my damage is higher with it.to determine really, but I still use haste because it feels like my damage is higher with it.
*I'd also like to add that I'm almost always grouped with a shadow priest. I don't think its ever worth using haste without one; you lose mana way too fast.
Slowly gearing up my new Shaman with Craftable/Heroic gear before hitting up the 10 man scene. Is Quagmirran's Eye - Items - World of Warcraft worth equiping over a Usable +spell damage trinket? I havn't had much time to test it, wondering what the general consensus is.
Omg off topic, but.........same bink as enhancement bink from redknights? lol
No. He's someone else (had to quit wow due to work or something). I would never touch Enh with a 10 foot barge poll.
Originally Posted by Nennx
In my opinion, there are 3 worthwhile items in terms of haste from BT. The 2 rings, and the cloth bracers. You just lose way too much damage and crit by dropping BoB or Antheron's Noose for Flashfire Girdle. I say the rings are worthwhile mostly because there are no other crit/dmg rings except the hyjal one, which really doesn't become better until exalted. The +nature ring lacks alot of stats, so it is easily replaced. The other BT ring has no stats and has hit rating; I'd pass it to someone who actually needs the +hit, though this one can come close in terms of pure dmg. As for bracers ... Supremus' or cloth haste is a toss up. Basically do you value 28haste or 24crit more? I personally rate 1% haste = 1% crit when deciding which is better for DPS. After the patch, they will all be extremely worth it, imo. As for the GCD thing; no one is perfect; the only time I ever run into GCD problems is when I CL during heroism.
From looking at my spot on the damage meter, since I've picked up haste, my damage has gone up. I can't say its significant, but I can't really say it's minor. Theres alot of other factors as well, since I've gotten 2 new pieces of T6 since I've started using haste. It can be hard to determine really, but I still use haste because it feels like my damage is higher with it.to determine really, but I still use haste because it feels like my damage is higher with it.
*I'd also like to add that I'm almost always grouped with a shadow priest. I don't think its ever worth using haste without one; you lose mana way too fast.
There's the crux of the situation. You're dependant on that spriest. Here is my guilds logs from last night. Completely ignoring the fact that the tanks kinda sucked early on, and the mages didn't spec frost till that last attempt, our resident Ele Shaman, one Fattymcgee, totally rocked the DPS charts. By that I mean he was 1st or 2nd on the first batch of al'ar kills. He was 6th on VR too, and had he managed to stay online for the last Al'ar kill, I'm certain he would have been up the top there too.
There's one thing that allowed him to get that much damage out. He picked up his 4th T5 item last week. This brings his mana gained from procs up to ~19000 for a fight, and combine this with the ~24000 saved from clearcasts, means he's able to keep trucking with LB's.
And he didn't have a spriest.
fyi, he was rolling with 40% crit all up.
This is why I say that crit is good.
Originally Posted by Shockerz
My apologies if my question was unclear.
I've decided the icon is a must have over my xiri's my crit is high enough, now i'm trying to hit 1k nature dmg.
The second trinket slot is an argument between the nexus horn and the lightning capacitor.
Out of those 2 which would you use with the Icon of the silver crescent
I still say Horn + TLC.
Doesn't matter how hard you're hitting if you don't have the mana for it.
There's the crux of the situation. You're dependant on that spriest. Here is my guilds logs from last night. Completely ignoring the fact that the tanks kinda sucked early on, and the mages didn't spec frost till that last attempt, our resident Ele Shaman, one Fattymcgee, totally rocked the DPS charts. By that I mean he was 1st or 2nd on the first batch of al'ar kills. He was 6th on VR too, and had he managed to stay online for the last Al'ar kill, I'm certain he would have been up the top there too.
There's one thing that allowed him to get that much damage out. He picked up his 4th T5 item last week. This brings his mana gained from procs up to ~19000 for a fight, and combine this with the ~24000 saved from clearcasts, means he's able to keep trucking with LB's.
And he didn't have a spriest.
fyi, he was rolling with 40% crit all up.
This is why I say that crit is good.
Of course I'm dependent on a shadow priest. Thats why I use haste -- I always have one in my group. Honestly, every elemental shaman should have on in their group, unless its a healing intense fight. If I don't I can still manage for about 6-7 minutes by chain potting (assuming I replace my haste items), which is enough for almost every fight in the game. Another thing I've noticed about alot of encounters is that there is alot of downtime; meaning I can get alot of my mana back in between phase switches, etc. I also get top5 on the meters when competing against other T6 level geared players.
As for 4/5 T5, It's completely not worth it. On the void reaver kill, he gained a total of 1,560 mana from it; which who knows if he needed or not. I've played around with it, and decided its completely not worth sacrificing DPS for. 2/5 T4, 3/5 T5 is the way to go until you start breaking into t6. TBH, theres no set bonus worth downgrading gear for (2/5 t4 is actually an UPGRADE from 5/5 t5 if you switch out the right pieces).
Anyways, I tend to look at the whole maximizing DPS point of view, rather than saving mana point of view. If you want to maximize DPS, spell damage all the way; crit only increases your mana pool by a little bit, and isn't as great for your damage as spell damage is.
Assuming that you will and absolutely sucking if you don't? No.
Also, looking at the VR kill is not going to be accurate, as he usually has to slow down on dps to avoid agro. Look at the whole night. There's a proc rate of about 40% on the bonus. And asking whether a DPS class needs more mana.... of course he needed more mana.
Yes, 2pc T6 is better than 4pc T5, but it's not surprising there as the shaman 2pc T6 bonus are pretty good all round.
Maximizing DPS is all well and good, assuming that you have the mana to cope with it.
I'm looking at it from the No-Spriest pov, especially as our spriests don't always turn up for raids.
The amount of mana you actually gain from 1% crit is pretty minimal. I'm not sure how accurate this was, but someone tested it to be about 4.5mp5. So, that 3% crit you switch for 3% haste, you only lose 1 or so nuke per minute.
I think I figured it out as this. LB costs 300 mana. If you crit on all LBs they would all cost 120 mana. If you crit on none they would all cost 300 mana. Thus to me I think 1% crit is worth 1.8 mana on a 2 second spell. Multiply that by 2.5 and thus yeah 4.5 mp5. So I guess my math was right. Which also to me shows the value of maxing the 5% talent in resto before maxing unrelenting storms. Unrelenting storms at 500 raid buffed int is 10mp5. I would much rather have 4.5 mp5 plus the extra damage you get from 1% more crit.
1% haste = 1.98 second LB's = 1.010101 more LB's every 200 seconds (assuming no lag).
300mana/200 seconds = 1.5 mps or 7.5 mp5 used to gain an extra 1% damage.
Thusly, one would assume that damage wise, 1% crit = 1% haste, but efficiency wise, 1.67% crit generates enough mana to counteract the addictional use of 1% haste.
Also, it would be worth noting that if you get your mana regen up high enough, you can start using a X LB/1 CL rotation to increase damage output.
The down side is that as the totems (not idols, those are for druids) are spell specific, and I'm planning on adding some spell rotation stuff in once I get the gem socket bonuses/more items listed.
Of course, it didn't help that I left the most updated copy at work over the weekend
Well actually 1% haste > 1% crit. The 1 extra LB bolt you get in those 200 secs can crit and can also trigger a LO (which can also crit). with a 40% crit rate it makes that one extra LB 1.4x 1crit in dps and with LO its
1.4 (LB average dmg )
+1.07(.05chance for LO * 1.4 avg with crit dmg) =
1.47.
So 1 haste is actually 1.47x better dps than 1 crit with a 40% crit rate.
Of course your point of going OOM faster still stands and makes a haste heavy build very reliant on a shadow priest. I just wanted to point out pure dpswise haste is superior to crit. Oh if you wanna nit pick to properly calculate the mana saved from critting you should include LO since LO can crit but does not consume a Ele focus. so your crit chance is slightly higher in practice than pure percentages reflected in game stats. The difference is really minor tho so meh.
Basically 5% of the time we calculate the chance not to crit 2 x in a row and subtract it from 1.
But its .95(critchance) + .05(1 -(1 - critchance )^2 )
so with 40 percent crit again. its
.95(.40) + .05(1 - (.6)^2) = .412
Here is a read only version of my personal ele spreadsheet. You can see I do some crit -> dmg and haste -> dmg conversions for different builds (in the lightningbolt tab) to figure out exactly how things compare. Dps ele calcs here
note: The spreadsheet wasn't really made for public consumption but if you wanna play with it lemme know.
Yeah, remembered about the crit damage about 15 minutes after, and promptly forgot to edit the post.
Anyways, going through my DPS calc (which I should really tidy up more), Haste > Crit for the first 2 minutes (Going 28->25% crit and 0->3% haste) doing ~0.7% more dps for every 1% crit lost, and 1% haste ganed (0.73, 1.47, 2.23), but after that drops to about 1% dps lost (ie: once mana becomes a factor). That was assuming 2k mana gained per minute as well.
Hey, I recently started raiding kara (stepping up into 25mans shortly) on my Shaman. I've only been 70 for a month or so and you can check out my armory at The Armory
I know some of the items, gems and enchants are more pvp oriented and I'm working on fixing that (hoping for HKM's cloak and working on getting the heroic badge shield).
Anyway, I've been wondering whether getting the tier 4 helm+shoulders would be better than getting Big Bad Wolf's Head + Pauldrons of Wild Magic.
Also, which trinkets should I use once I get my lightning capacitor? I'm thinking that Shiffar's would be better for longer fights whereas xi'ir's would be better for burst dps fights?
There is certainly room for improvement for my gear, getting the dagger off prince would bump my spell damage to 779 for example.
I messed up my respec recently, but I'm yet to come to a proper spec. I want to get full unreleting storm but I would need to sacrifice storm reach for that.
One thing I think I really need is more int... I find that I don't have enough mana to do a LB/LB/LB/CL rotation
Anyway, hope to hear some of your opinions and suggestions
Ladies and Gentlemen: I don't mean to sound "angry" or anything, but can we please stop covering the same gear/spec type questions again and again and again?
If it's something new/different then sure, but enough with the "I'm in/just out of kara and this is my armory and what gear/spec should I get blah blah blah" posts.
Were this thread a big 50 page epic like the Enhancement thread(s) are going, then maybe I'd forgive you for not reading the prior pages, but we're up to #5 atm.
Side note: T4 > BBW/WM, Shiffar's > Xi'ri's, drop the points in reverb elsewhere & max guidance.
fine there you go! LC seems (from my very poor testing) to be effected by crit talents, but i am unsure about concussion - will test over the coming days!
And for mamal, there is no way i have found to get 5/5 unrelenting storm without sacrificing either storms reach or 2 points in tidal mastery. 2.3 (the change to clearcasting) might make dropping the 2 points in tidal mastery valid, but atm, i think we will have to work with 3/5, or no storms reach
First of all I just want to say thank you to everyone that's given input in this thread, I've found it to be extremely helpful.
Special thanks to Bink for his spreadsheets.
That said, I don't think that the ShamStats is taking the BoP crafted set bonus into consideration. I'm probably missing something, but I figured I would say something just in case.
fine there you go! LC seems (from my very poor testing) to be effected by crit talents, but i am unsure about concussion - will test over the coming days!
And for mamal, there is no way i have found to get 5/5 unrelenting storm without sacrificing either storms reach or 2 points in tidal mastery. 2.3 (the change to clearcasting) might make dropping the 2 points in tidal mastery valid, but atm, i think we will have to work with 3/5, or no storms reach
Tidal Mastery definitely should, Call of Thunder probably will too.
Concussion was rumoured to work, but I think it may have been changed if it did.
EF obviously doesn't as the crits are only 50%.
Originally Posted by Shenanegans
First of all I just want to say thank you to everyone that's given input in this thread, I've found it to be extremely helpful.
Special thanks to Bink for his spreadsheets.
That said, I don't think that the ShamStats is taking the BoP crafted set bonus into consideration. I'm probably missing something, but I figured I would say something just in case.
Thanks again.
Pretty sure the elemental leatherworking sets are included. Of the tradeskills I've added in LW/BS/JC items so far, so Tailoring has yet to be added.
I've completely removed set bonuses for the moment until I can get a few more things sorted.
Then I can figure out how to quantify some of those random bonuses, if at all. Just remember this isn't going to be a clear cut X > Y, especially when it comes to set bonuses.
So I haven't seen any hard numbers on the proposed changes to elemental focus. I was wondering if it was a buff or a nerf so I ran some simulations. If you wanna see teh code just ask but I didn't feel like posting all of it here.
note: the artificial increase to the crit rate comes from the fact that LO can proc elemental focus but does not consume it effectively giving you a higher crit rate when calculating mana saved. All calculations were done with 297 mana cost to LB. I'm assuming that ele focus does not stack and so the max charges it has is 2. I left the "percents" in decimal form the actual percent u just multiply by 100. I included some sets with smaller numbers of casts and the same crit rate to give some idea of the variance but I didn't do any real standard deviations or anything (if someone really must have this I could add it I guess). I'd mostly pay attention to the numbers from the 100000 casts since that will be close to your average over time.
crit for current elemental focus 35
crit for proposed elemental focus 35
crit before LO 0.35
crit with LO 0.36137499999999995
crit before LO 0.35
crit with LO 0.36137499999999995
Live version
Total mana used 2.3240071800015565E7
Total number of casts 100000
Average mana used 232.40071800015565
Percent reduction 0.21750599999947595
Proposed version
Total mana used 2.266406999997507E7
Total number of casts 100000
Average mana used 226.6406999997507
Percent reduction 0.23690000000083944
crit for current elemental focus 40
crit for proposed elemental focus 40
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
Live version
Total mana used 2.2310046000017125E7
Total number of casts 100000
Average mana used 223.10046000017124
Percent reduction 0.2488199999994234
Proposed version
Total mana used 2.19162239999732E7
Total number of casts 100000
Average mana used 219.162239999732
Percent reduction 0.26208000000090237
crit for current elemental focus 40
crit for proposed elemental focus 40
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
Live version
Total mana used 13899.599999999999
Total number of casts 60
Average mana used 231.65999999999997
Percent reduction 0.22000000000000008
Proposed version
Total mana used 13543.200000000008
Total number of casts 60
Average mana used 225.72000000000014
Percent reduction 0.23999999999999955
crit for current elemental focus 40
crit for proposed elemental focus 40
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
crit before LO 0.4
crit with LO 0.41200000000000003
Live version
Total mana used 13543.199999999997
Total number of casts 60
Average mana used 225.71999999999994
Percent reduction 0.2400000000000002
Proposed version
Total mana used 12830.400000000009
Total number of casts 60
Average mana used 213.84000000000015
Percent reduction 0.27999999999999947
crit for current elemental focus 30
crit for proposed elemental focus 30
crit before LO 0.3
crit with LO 0.3105
crit before LO 0.3
crit with LO 0.3105
Live version
Total mana used 2.4201995400013547E7
Total number of casts 100000
Average mana used 242.01995400013547
Percent reduction 0.18511799999954393
Proposed version
Total mana used 2.3457178799977392E7
Total number of casts 100000
Average mana used 234.57178799977393
Percent reduction 0.21019600000076122
overall looks to be a small buff to elefocus there will still be those unlucky crit 10x in a row then not crit 10x in a row but overtime the new changes seem to be a small buff. Oh and I guess I'm assuming chain casting here. If you don't get 2 casts off before the ele focus buff runs out then it would throw things off.
08/23/07, 12:12 PM
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