[Hunter] Shot Rotation Illustrated - Page 23

Indora · 06/02/08, 1:13 PM

There is another problem SV hunters have to solve:

While one shot is still cast, the next one can already begin, as long as there is no GCD that prevent it from casting.
Now we have a very long steady shto cast (1.5 / 1.15 ~ 1.3), only 0.2 seconds slower than the GCD.

Let's assume you click your steady shot just at the moment your auto shot begins to cast...

- = 0.1 seconds

auto shot cast
|---|.......................................|---|
steady shot cast
.....|-----------||-----------||-----------|.....|-----------|
GCD
|-------------||-------------||-------------||-------------|

As you can see, the gcd of the next steady shot will start before the previous cast ends. Because of this, there are long steadyshot rows, just like it happens when your cast is pushed back.

This problem can be helped by using haste or spamming your button less fast (notice, this will result in less dps, too).

p.s.:
The diagramm looks like there would always be 3 steadys inbetween 2 auto shots... This is not correct, because it ignores SpamSpeed (--> slower GCD, ~ 1.525 - 1.6) and latency jitter.

peteriong · 06/02/08, 2:35 PM

My understanding to the relation of "Steady Shot->Auto Shot" is just the same with the relation of pre-TBC "Aim Shot->Auto shot". In the classic "Aim Shot->Auto Shot->Multi Shot->Auto Shot->...." rotation, the Auto Shot hidden cast is delayed during the Aim Shot Cast. The Auto Shot hidden cast will start immediately after the Aim Shot is launched.

I assumes the relation of "Steady Shot->Auto Shot" after Patch 2.3.2 is: When there is 0.5 sec (or shorter than 0.5 sec if we assumes auto shot cast time affected by haste) left from the end of the Auto Shot CD, the Auto Shot hidden cast starts. If a Steady Shot is casting at that moment, the Auto Shot hidden cast will start immediately after the Steady Shot is launched. But from the test results of Test 2 and Test 3, it seems there are two situations:

A) Test 2. /cast !Auto Shot command is sent. Auto Shot hidden cast indeed start immediately after the Steady Shot is launched.

B) Test 3. No /cast !Auto Shot command. Auto Shot is handled by the server. It seems that the Auto Shot hidden cast does not start immediately after the Steady Shot is launched. There is a gap between the moment last Steady Shot launch and the moment the server activate the Auto Shot hidden cast. This gap is where another Steady Shot command can be received and clip the Auto Shot.

I try to explain the above assumptions in the following graph. Green block represents the Auto Shot cd and the yellow block represents the Auto Shot hidden cast. Blue block represents the Steady Shot cast and the Orange block represents GCD.

peteriong · 06/02/08, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Indora

There is another problem SV hunters have to solve:

While one shot is still cast, the next one can already begin, as long as there is no GCD that prevent it from casting.
Now we have a very long steady shto cast (1.5 / 1.15 ~ 1.3), only 0.2 seconds slower than the GCD.

Let's assume you click your steady shot just at the moment your auto shot begins to cast...

- = 0.1 seconds

auto shot cast
|---|.......................................|---|
steady shot cast
.....|-----------||-----------||-----------|.....|-----------|
GCD
|-------------||-------------||-------------||-------------|

As you can see, the gcd of the next steady shot will start before the previous cast ends. Because of this, there are long steadyshot rows, just like it happens when your cast is pushed back.

This problem can be helped by using haste or spamming your button less fast (notice, this will result in less dps, too).

p.s.:
The diagramm looks like there would always be 3 steadys inbetween 2 auto shots... This is not correct, because it ignores SpamSpeed (--> slower GCD, ~ 1.525 - 1.6) and latency jitter.

After looking at this diagram I understand there is a mistake in my graph. The second GCD should start after the 2nd Steady Shot command is queued. The modified version is as below.

Now I think my question is solved. Thank you very much. The server should be handling queued up Steady Shot command at higher priority than server driven Auto Shot hidden cast. To solve this clipping problem, the command /cast !Auto Shot should be added in the queue.

This may also be an important information for MM or SV spec hunter using hand-weave 1:1.5 shot rotation. The three hot key [Steady Shot][Multi Shot][Arcane Shot] for hand-weave 1:1.5 shot rotation should be replaced by the three hot key [!Auto Shot/Steady Shot Macro][Multi Shot][Arcane Shot] to reduce the chance of Auto Shot clipping by the GCD mechanism.

• Praxx · 06/02/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by peteriong

After looking at this diagram I understand there is a mistake in my graph. The second GCD should start after the 2nd Steady Shot command is queued. The modified version is as below.

Now I think my question is solved. Thank you very much. The server should be handling queued up Steady Shot command at higher priority than server driven Auto Shot hidden cast. To solve this clipping problem, the command /cast !Auto Shot should be added in the queue.

This may also be an important information for MM or SV spec hunter using hand-weave 1:1.5 shot rotation. The three hot key [Steady Shot][Multi Shot][Arcane Shot] for hand-weave 1:1.5 shot rotation should be replaced by the three hot key [!Auto Shot/Steady Shot Macro][Multi Shot][Arcane Shot] to reduce the chance of Auto Shot clipping by the GCD mechanism.

I believe your first version of the test #2 chart was the more accurate. It showed the Auto Shot cast time starting before the end of the steady shot. I have seen auto shots fire .07 sec after a steady so I know the .5 sec can start before the steady shot fires.

lpskater4886 · 06/04/08, 6:08 AM

ok im using the badge xbow, im sv spec, and my paperdoll speed is 2.44. also i have no DST

right now im using a 0/24/37 spec, but all the good sv hunters i see use the 7/20/34 spec.

so if i do make that switch spec wise what should i do for rotations

right now im using the standard 1:1.5 with auto and multi

Artemisis · 06/04/08, 10:14 AM

Why would a survival hunter be a 7/20/34 spec?, most common is 5/20/36. That extra 2% damage you get from FF isnt worth losing points in TotH or EW. At least in most end game fights if your not a BM hunter, its fairly hard to keep your pet alive long enough to benefit from it anyway. About your rotation...im having the same questions so I cannot help you there.

I tried the FF as MM hunter and I spent more time healing the darn thing, and if it dies its not worth rezzing it. Only time I found that a viable ability to spec in is when I had the t5 bonus, or was it the t4 that healed ur pet a % of the damage you did? I cannot remember.

Faerdael · 06/04/08, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by lpskater4886

ok im using the badge xbow, im sv spec, and my paperdoll speed is 2.44. also i have no DST

right now im using a 0/24/37 spec, but all the good sv hunters i see use the 7/20/34 spec.

so if i do make that switch spec wise what should i do for rotations

right now im using the standard 1:1.5 with auto and multi

The 7/../.. spec is showing some great success for advanced survival hunters. The idea is to use the /cast /cast macro, starting at a 2:1 rotation and allowing varying degrees of haste to bump up into a 3:2 or 1:1 rotation (thus the DST, and LW preferably).

This is very gear dependant however, and the general feeling is you need 4T6 and some passive haste gear (attack speed at around 2.3x) to really make this work. You are best advised to refer to the survival thread regarding this, although with your gear level, imo, a 0/20/41 and the 1.5:1 are probably your best bet.

A diagram of the hasted survival rotation(s) in this thread would be great. I think I may start working on that, although I would be working strictly from theory (I don't have to gear for this either).

Iluminati · 06/04/08, 12:07 PM

Hello, I'm working on my BM hunter and currently using Manito's modified 3:2 KC macro. I realize that hunter shots are very sensitive to cast/auto speed so is this fine to use when your attack speed is greatly increased (ie: heroism + rapid fire?)? If not, what should I be using instead?

• Praxx · 06/04/08, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Iluminati

Hello, I'm working on my BM hunter and currently using Manito's modified 3:2 KC macro. I realize that hunter shots are very sensitive to cast/auto speed so is this fine to use when your attack speed is greatly increased (ie: heroism + rapid fire?)? If not, what should I be using instead?

Yes, it is fine to continue using the macro when under haste effects. That is part of the beauty of the macro is that it will drop down to a 1:1 rotation when you pass a certain haste threshold. When your shot speed drops to about 1.5 your auto shot timer is now lower than the cast time of your steady shot pushing you to the 1:1.

With 0 haste rating from gear, using a 2.8 speed bow, your attack speed will drop to 1.45 when under the effects of Rapid fire (assuming serpents swiftness and 15% quiver).

I made a Google spread sheet that can be used to calc haste ratings for auto shot and steady shot with various effects active. You can take a look at it here. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...KzXeeVDQ&hl=en

Iluminati · 06/04/08, 1:27 PM

Alright, thank you! I'm not sure I understand though, how can my autoshot speed go below my steady shot speed, when they are getting the same benefit from haste? Or did I miss something about how haste works for hunters? Is that because even though my steadyshot cast is <1.5 sec, the GCD is still 1.5?

Is there a point where haste rating becomes "worthless" ? Or will it always provide some dps boost? Thanks for all the help.

• Praxx · 06/04/08, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Iluminati

Alright, thank you! I'm not sure I understand though, how can my autoshot speed go below my steady shot speed, when they are getting the same benefit from haste? Or did I miss something about how haste works for hunters? Is that because even though my steadyshot cast is <1.5 sec, the GCD is still 1.5?

Is there a point where haste rating becomes "worthless" ? Or will it always provide some dps boost? Thanks for all the help.

When calculating the steady shot cast time you tack on the .5 sec GCD + .2 sec for latency. While both shots gain the same % from haste the total reduction to the auto shot is greater. Once you add on the .7 to the steady shot you can reach the point where your auto shots come faster than your steady shots.

This information is from wowwiki article on Steady Shot.

There is no point where more haste will be worthless but once you get to the 1.5 mark and you are getting 1 auto for 1 steady all of the time more hast makes the same rotation only slightly faster thus diminishing it's value. You would gain more by spending the item budget on other stats such as Agi / Crit / AP.

If you were able to get 554 haste rating with a 2.8 speed bow and serpents swiftness your auto shot timer would be 1.4997 while your steady shot timer would be 1.5034. If you then threw rapid fire on top of this your auto shots would be coming .2 sec faster than your steady shots (1.071 vs. 1.273). That is what the discussion about "worthless haste" is talking about.

CptnTriscuit · 06/04/08, 3:25 PM

Interesting stuff.

I am wondering at what point (if any) would Auto-Shot attack speed render Steady Shot valueless?

While under the effect of various speed enhancements I have had my ranged attack speed drop as low as 0.68 - at which point I stop macro spamming and just let Auto-Shot fly.

Is this wise?

• Praxx · 06/04/08, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by CptnTriscuit

Interesting stuff.

I am wondering at what point (if any) would Auto-Shot attack speed render Steady Shot valueless?

While under the effect of various speed enhancements I have had my ranged attack speed drop as low as 0.68 - at which point I stop macro spamming and just let Auto-Shot fly.

Is this wise?

At .68 your steady shot timer is 1.064. You would be getting an auto right at the end of every steady so you would be getting two shots (auto / steady) every 1.1 seconds or so. If you just let auto fire go you get two shots every 1.36 seconds. Still probably worth it to use the macro.

One question however. To get to .68 you would need 264 haste on top of all of the following effects being up at the same time:

Rapid Fire
Quick Shots
Bloodlust
Drums of Battle
Dragonspine Trophy

How were you able to get to that speed?

Edit: Throwing a haste pot into the equation gets you to the shot speed you were seeing.

CptnTriscuit · 06/04/08, 4:09 PM

Yes I would like to know specifically how I hit 0.68 myself after looking at your spreadsheet. I need to catch it with WWS I suppose but need to learn to use it first!

I believe there may have been multiple heroisms popped in addition to:

- 2.8 xBow
- Serpents Swiftness
- Rapid Fire
- Quick Shots
- Dragonspine Trophy

Unless heroism / bloodlust doesn't stack with itself in which case I'm a nub and still can't answer how.

In either case I will endeavor to capture the event so I may report it here with something more substantial than 'my word'.

• Intermission · 06/04/08, 9:54 PM

Originally Posted by Artemisis

Why would a survival hunter be a 7/20/34 spec?, most common is 5/20/36. That extra 2% damage you get from FF isnt worth losing points in TotH or EW. At least in most end game fights if your not a BM hunter, its fairly hard to keep your pet alive long enough to benefit from it anyway. About your rotation...im having the same questions so I cannot help you there.

I tried the FF as MM hunter and I spent more time healing the darn thing, and if it dies its not worth rezzing it. Only time I found that a viable ability to spec in is when I had the t5 bonus, or was it the t4 that healed ur pet a % of the damage you did? I cannot remember.

Because Focused Fire is a damage increase (and dont forget the KC crit rate), TotH is a mana cost reduction. These are very different things.

Considering it's almost impossible to go out of mana with JoW on a target, [I am under the impression] the vast majority of t6 survival hunters only have 1 point in TotH (and 3 points in EW). I'd rather have 50% mana in the tank and have done 2.3ish% more damage, than have 90% mana and miss out on that 2.3% damage.

As for most common, I don't think I have ever seen a 5/20/36 spec'ed character. I dont go around looking for them on a daily basis, but none have caught my eye. The two competing specs and playstyles as I see them, are:
- 1:1.5 manual rotation, using either 0/20/41 (Readiness), 0/24/37 (Barrage, plus Scatter+Wyvern fun), or similar Barrage and even RWS specs. This was the norm, and suited pre-t6 raiding well.
- 2:1 (3:2, 1:1) /cast/cast macro, using 7/20/34 for IAOTH procs. This works very well with t6, passive haste, and a DST.

The reason the 1:1.5 spec did not get Focused Fire was because they didnt get IAOTH. Spending 7 points for Focused Fire would not be worth loosing the Readiness utility and crit from Master Tact, or the Scatter/Wyvern utility and the Barrage/RWS damage. With IAOTH being very useful now to a /cast/cast build and Barrage not needed, the other 2 in Focused Fire are a no-brainer.

Regarding pet survivability, I dont see it as a problem:
Kalec - fine.
Brutallus - fine.
Felmyst - fine (we have 3 priests, so our pets get MDs too). Avoidance + dash means pets can escape melee encapsulates easily.
Twins - touch and go. I'd give him a 50% chance to see p2, which he will then stay alive fine (we kill Sacrolash first). Mana is not a problem on this fight anyway, even with mend pet use in p1.
Muru - fine.
KJ - dont know yet.

sargetony · 06/04/08, 11:29 PM

I was wondering where you guys were getting your DPS numbers? What is considered normal, low, high, etc.

I am a 70 MM Hunter with full S1 gear and the Vindicator trimmings. I am socketed for +hit, AP and +crit and I am using the Gladiators Heavy Crossbow and Vengeful Gladiators Waraxe.

With that my stats are
1962 RAP
83 Hit
27.17% Crit
all unbuffed
(oh and ignore 98 armor)

With recount I see 422.5 DPS. On the character page is see 310.9 DPS.

I have been using the 3:2 shot rotation. (The one recommended by you guys Steady-Auto-steady-Auto-Steady-Arcane- with KC put in when it procs)

You can look me up on the armory at The World of Warcraft Armory

I am currently running Kara once a week or so and I know a few items I need out of there to bump my +hit to the hit cap.

BTW, I am in Germany on a US Server so I consistently have 500-520ms latency. I run macros to attempt to beat the latency issue with my DPS.

Question is, is my DPS low or what? How else can I find my DPS?

Thanks for all of your hard work on this forum,
Tony

Rezdan · 06/05/08, 12:53 AM

I've got a question as to the specific effect of Latency to my BM Shot rotation.

I'm using the 3:2 macro that links to a separate KC macro on another bar.

I run a consistent 280ms during raids.
I'm a Dwarf BM Hunter currently using my S3 Vengeful. Yes, I have DST. I currently have 0 haste.

Now, messing around with Cheeky's, i lose a whopping 20dps going to the Badge XBOW.

I'm wondering if Haste would help me counter my latency or in fact mess up my rotation.
Ideally, i'm wondering if there's a formula for the Hasted Weapon speed I should be going for considering my latency.

Cheers!

Stargazmic · 06/14/08, 11:19 AM

Hey Guys!! This is my first post on Elitist Jerks. I've been reading around for a bit but I'm just still SO confused because there's so many ideas.

This is me:
The World of Warcraft Armory
I'm obviously a BM hunter with a 1.9 gun speed (still using gun from BBW in Kara).

Here is my problem:
I've been gone since the SWP patch, so I'm a bit behind. I see all these hunters with haste gear on, and them saying they do 1500DPS, with crappier gear than me wearing some PvP gear mixed in I guess because they haven't raided as much as me and gotten the drops. I normally get 1k-1.2k DPS, which I suppose is okay but not where I'd like to be. I use these 3 macros:

1:1 + Arcane/KC + Multi/KC

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=1.96 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

+
#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Arcane Shot

+
#showtooltip Multi-Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Multi-Shot

But.. I obviously run out of mana like a mage who didn't stack INT. So I use my Mana Injectors and usually have to switch to Viper Aspect because I lose the mana before the next CD. When that happens, all I can do is use the first macro which is the regular 1:1 that uses KC if it's up - and obviously keep Viper on. THIS messes up my DPS and I normally start to fall back to 950. And it's SO irritating. I've been told that "Cast Sequences" by numerous people are also bad, which I don't know why, no one has explained - and that I should be using a 3:2 instead of a 1:1. SO! Which 3:2 should I be using? That's that... now any suggestions?

I was also told that the new badge gun was better than what I'm using now..Here are the stats to compare:

Crossbow of Relentless Strikes
Speed 2.80
93 DPS
Equip: Improves Crit strike rating by 18.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 14.
Equip: Increases attack power by 32.

Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle:
Speed 2.70
79.1 DPS
+15 AGI
Equip: Increases attack power by 32.

And one last night, is my spec totally wrong? Maybe that's why my DPS sucks too. Ughh =/ so fed up.

If I could get some replies back that would be AWESOME, and thankyou all so much for reading this looong post..

<3<3 Star

Riedacher · 06/14/08, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Stargazmic

Hey Guys!! This is my first post on Elitist Jerks. I've been reading around for a bit but I'm just still SO confused because there's so many ideas.

This is me:
The World of Warcraft Armory
I'm obviously a BM hunter with a 1.9 gun speed (still using gun from BBW in Kara).

Here is my problem:
I've been gone since the SWP patch, so I'm a bit behind. I see all these hunters with haste gear on, and them saying they do 1500DPS, with crappier gear than me wearing some PvP gear mixed in I guess because they haven't raided as much as me and gotten the drops. I normally get 1k-1.2k DPS, which I suppose is okay but not where I'd like to be. I use these 3 macros:

1:1 + Arcane/KC + Multi/KC

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=1.96 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

+
#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Arcane Shot

+
#showtooltip Multi-Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Multi-Shot

But.. I obviously run out of mana like a mage who didn't stack INT. So I use my Mana Injectors and usually have to switch to Viper Aspect because I lose the mana before the next CD. When that happens, all I can do is use the first macro which is the regular 1:1 that uses KC if it's up - and obviously keep Viper on. THIS messes up my DPS and I normally start to fall back to 950. And it's SO irritating. I've been told that "Cast Sequences" by numerous people are also bad, which I don't know why, no one has explained - and that I should be using a 3:2 instead of a 1:1. SO! Which 3:2 should I be using? That's that... now any suggestions?

I was also told that the new badge gun was better than what I'm using now..Here are the stats to compare:

Crossbow of Relentless Strikes
Speed 2.80
93 DPS
Equip: Improves Crit strike rating by 18.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 14.
Equip: Increases attack power by 32.

Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle:
Speed 2.70
79.1 DPS
+15 AGI
Equip: Increases attack power by 32.

And one last night, is my spec totally wrong? Maybe that's why my DPS sucks too. Ughh =/ so fed up.

If I could get some replies back that would be AWESOME, and thankyou all so much for reading this looong post..

<3<3 Star

1) Delete all your macros. Don't need cast sequences, don't use Kill Command. Don't need arcane shot or multishot.
2) Make a macro with:
/cast !Autoshot
/cast Steady Shot
3) Spam the shit out of the new macro. You are now doing a 3:2 rotation.
4) Try to have a drawspeed between 1.8 and 2.1, ideally between 1.9 and 2.0. Get the new badge gun. If you want, get maybe one or two more items with haste, shouldn't be needed though. Use things with random/large haste increases. Improved Aspect of the Hawk, Drums of Battle (hopefully you're a leatherworker), Haste potions, and if you can, Dragonspine Trophy. When they proc, keep spamming the macro. You'll do more dps and automatically switch to a higher dps 1:1 rotation if possible.

Stargazmic · 06/14/08, 5:54 PM

No Kill-Command added in???? That's the first I've ever heard

Allroy · 06/18/08, 1:59 PM

I've tried both BM and MM specs. I've been running a Mostly MM and some SV build and I like it.

Current stats as marksman
Attack speed: 2.36
Attack power: 2196
Crit : 24.5
Usual latency of around 300-330 ms.
Using Crossbow of Relentless strikes.

Just based on that what do you feel would give me the most DPS as marksman? A 1:1, 1: 1.5 , 3:2 ? I just recently came back from a very long break so I'm trying to be the best hunter I can be and bring utility to groups/raids but still provide great dps.
If you could point me to another post with what you feel would be an idea macro I'd be very appreciative. I've been manually twisting shots and geting around 880-900 dps on boss fights, but I think that might be a bit low given my stats.

I'm not opposed to respecing if you think it will help. Right now the gear I have on my armory is just pvp gear, which is why I listed my stats manually My PvE gear is much better.

The World of Warcraft Armory