Cloak-SH

I was wondering if anyone knew either off hand, or could point me to a resource that has given our skills (SnD, etc) an actual rating. Apologies if this is something that rating buster does, if it is i will just go and DL the mod after work.

What I would love info on is:

SnD
BF
Mongoose

I understand they are 30/20/and 2% respectively but i was curious what that means in terms of rating.

Ty in advance, being at work ftl.

I was also wondering if anyone has or knows of a mod that will track weapon speed throughout an encounter, something I could use to see how much +haste im actually getting from the various procs that I have, i dont think there is anything designed for it currently but my own searching time has been quite limited.

Again, ty

Edited to reflect the lack of being at work now, and gain of coherent thought.

 

◊ Shaker

Haste from skills is somewhat seperate from the haste given by haste rating on gear/from procs.

Haste ratings are added together to give one "haste from ratings" set, which is then multiplied into your haste from skills. In other words, the haste effect from SnD is more effective haste when used in conjunction with BF than it is if just used on it own, etc.

 

Cloak-SH

Ty for the quick response.

So the following is true?

SnD * BF * (haste rating from other sources) = atk speed reduction

 

◊ Sarutobi

The 'Lightning speed' effect from Mongoose is 2% by the way.

 

sp00n

Yes.


Hm, shouldn't take place in the ratings section then, if it is a % increase.
Thinking about it, it *has* to be a % increase and not a rating. Imagine 31.54 haste rating (which is 2% on level 70) on a level 35 character.
That's 31.54/5.19 = 6.07% haste instead of 2%.

 

laforce

So, haste is not summed up and then applied, or it has to be re-calculated for each buff? I have never tested this and I'm not home now, so I'm curious...

SnD = 30%, BF = 20%, then, say you have a 2.00 speed weapon:

1# If SnD + BF = 50%, your speed will be 2.00 * 0.5 = 1.0 speed

Or

2# If SnD and BF are applied separately, then, 2.0 * 0.7 * 0.8 = 1.12 speed

If #1 is true, then it's best if you use all of your haste trinkets and BF at the same time
If #2 is true, then it's best if you use 1 at a time and wait for one effect is over till you use another one

I've never thought about this ;/

 

sp00n

Nope, wrong formula. Both times.
It's Speed/((1+%)*1(+%)*(haste1+haste2+haste3)) etc

So a 2.00 speed weapons with SnD & BF becomes:
2/((1+0.30)*(1+0.20))= 1.28 speed

It's best to use all haste effects at the same time, as this will maximize your haste gain (1.3*1.2 = 1.56 increase).

 

◊ Lactose

A 100% haste = double the amount of attacks in any given time frame. NOT infinite amount of attacks.

Hastes are applied multiplicatively.
2.0 weapon, 20% haste + 30% haste =
2.0 / (1.2*1.3) = 1.28

EDIT: Curse you sp00n!

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

laforce

Oh... thanks for the enlightenment

 

Cloak-SH

By this theory its best to also stack haste rating as high as possible as it would be considered your third multiplicative effect right?

Which leads into my next question of when does say 100 haste rating actually fail to produce additional attacks over a one minute span. Or even where does it become less advantageous than say +hit?

100 is probably too high of a number based on itemization and current mechanics but if we put the number to say 10 or 20 id be willing to bet that it fades to insignificance faster than we think.

Then again this is only my opinion and I could be wrong :]

 

Katherine

100 haste rating isnt too far of, if you are into Black Temple.

Essence of Souls - Grips of Damnation -> 37
BT Trash - Band of Devastation (not unique) -> 2 x 31
Craft - Swiftstrike Bracers -> 27
Craft - Swiftstrike Shoulders -> 38

Sums up quite well to 164 haste rating, which is an impressive 15.62% passiv haste. (10.5 melee haste rating = 1%)

 

Fugazor

Add two pieces of T6 and you will have 50%+ haste with only S&D up. Ouch!

 

Gryzemuis

Are you sure ?

Haste does not only increase your white damage.
The extra swings will also increase proc chances of all kinds of procs.

Suppose I have slice&dice up at all times.
Suppose Blade Flurry and Abacus of Violent Odds are haste abilities I can enable at will.
I guess popping a haste potion is also a haste ability at will.
Suppose Mongoose and Thundering Skyfire Diamond are haste abilites that are enabled by a proc.

According to your rule of thumb, I should wait until Thundering Skyfire Diamond procs, and then I should enable BF and Abacus, and take a haste pot. That would give the highest increase in white damage.

Another way to look at this is: use your controllable haste to make the other proccable haste procs proc as soon as possible. (I'm sorry for the awkward sentence. )

I don't like to go full out at the beginning of a fight. So I will not use BF or Abacus during the first seconds of the fight. Say 10 seconds. During those 10 seconds, if Mongoose did not proc, I can enable BF to increase chances of Mongoose proccing. If Mongoose did proc, I will wait until Mongoose fades off, and then enable BF to try and make Mongoose proc asap again. Once Mongoose procs, I wait for it to wear off, and then use Abacus. Hopefully Mongoose will proc again. When it fades off for the second time, I can use a haste potion.

There are also the procs that have an internal cooldown. Or effects that don't stack. Using haste effects will increase the chance of a proc. But once it has procced, the cooldown/non-stacking will prevent it from proccing again during the short haste duration. If you spread out your haste effects over time, you might get more procs out of it over the full duration of a long fight.

The math is too complex for me to do this early in the morning.
But my point is: what gives more damage ? Multiplying all haste effects at the same time ? Or using haste to try to keep Mongoose up at all times ?

 

sp00n

Use your cooldowns effectively. don't wait (too long) for anything to happen first.
Every second you do not activate BF & Abacus is a second lost.

Of course you have to wait until the tank has a comfortable advance in threat, but after that point, if you are sure you have 20 seconds of uninterrupted damage, activate BF and your trinkets.


Small example:
SnD is considered to be always active and therefore doesn't matter. A 2.6 weapon with SnD is 2.6/1.3 = 2 speed, so let's assume this speed.

Assumption
2.00 speed
0.5 swings / second
1 minute fight = 30 swings / minute

With BF
2/1.2= 1.67 speed
0.6 swings / second for 20 seconds
0.6*20 + 0.5*40 = 32 swings / minute

With BF and Abacus at the same time
2/((1.2)*(1+(260/10.52/100)))= 1.34 speed
0.748 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.748*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.5*40 = 33.48 swings / minute


BF and Abacus not at the same time
BF speed: 1.67
Abacus speed: 2/(1+(260/10.52/100))= 1.6
0.6 swings/s for 20 seconds
0.62 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6*20 + 0.62*10 + 0.5*30 = 33.2 swings / minute



So seperating your haste abilities/trinkets/potions nets you less swings/minute and therefore less chances to proc poisons/windfury/procs than if you stack them.

 

Marvie

This may not quite fall under the original topic but I was curious as to the result.
With (The Armory) stats, what is the DPS comparison for the glove enchants +15agi and 10haste (formerly 1%) to gloves?

 

sp00n

*shrug*
We have a DPS Spreadsheet which exactly covers these sort of questions.

For me, 15 Agi is around 2 DPS better than 10 Haste Rating (as for my equipment, 1 Haste Rating is slightly more effective than 1 point Agility, but not as much as 1.5 points).

 

evl

Any thoughts on Crystalweave Cape I've currently got Vengeance Wrap but I was wondering if Crystalweave would be slightly better fully raidbuffed.

 

Zurgat

Well, if you compare the itemvalues on those capes.
31 AEP versus about 59 AEP, i'd say the epic cloak is a clear winner for DPS.

Ofcourse the haste rating is "nice", but not enough to throw away 28 AEP in other stats for it.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

Lilias

For SnD, BF and _one_ haste effect from anouther source than skills this should be right, but this topic was about haste rating, right? So considering the fact that those effects work additive instead of multiplicative with each other, it wouldn't be wise to activate say abacus at the same time dragonstrike procs, you'd be better off waiting for the proc to wear off and use the trinket afterwards. Or am I mistaken here?

"Mindless SS spamming'"? Yeah right, 'cause every time you hit Backstab you need to solve a short differential equation.

 

WibbleNZ

Additive haste (i.e. haste rating) should provide the same benefit whether used together or separately. However the multiplicative effect of BF is going to provide more benefit if it is multiplying both additive effects rather than one.

Following Sp00n's examples (and ignoring Dragonstrike's actual speed):

Abacus & Dragonstrike separated:
Abacus speed: 2/(1+(260/10.52/100))= 1.6
0.62 swings/s for 10 seconds
Dragonstrike speed: 2/(1+(212/10.52/100))= 1.66
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6*10 + 0.62*10 + 0.5*40 = 32.2 swings / minute

Abacus & Dragonstrike together:
2/(1+((260+212)/10.52/100)) = 1.38
0.72 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.72*10 + 0.5*50 = 32.2 swings / minute

BF, Abacus & Dragonstrike:
2/((1.2)*(1+((260+212))/10.52/100)))= 1.15 speed
0.87 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.87*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.5*40 = 34.7 swings / minute

BF & Abacus together, Dragonstrike separated:
2/((1.2)*(1+(260/10.52/100)))= 1.34 speed
0.748 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds (Remaining BF)
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds (Dragonstrike)
0.748*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.5*30 = 34.48 swings / minute

Haste pots would probably have been a better example, since you can predict their use, but the ideas are the same.

 

sp00n

Well as I've said before, I wouldn't wait for procs until activating any trinket/talent that increase the hit rating.
Use it when you're comfortable with it on the earliest opportunity, to hopefully have it ready a second/third time in the fight.

And since I suppose every rogue that has gone so deep into theorycrafting also has chosen to spec BF, it kind of obsoletes any other usage.

 

virtuzoso

From World of Raids :: Index


haste rating values have been modified on PTR for both melees and casters, these changes were unnoticed until today (thanks Deify of Forte), they are not mentioned in 2.2 PTR patch notes.

Now for the new values, check below.

Haste Rating (melee)

Live: 10.5 haste rating for 1% haste
PTR: 15.7 haste rating for 1% haste





I am pretty horrified at the change. Instead of removing or retuning gear with passive haste on it, they throw the baby out with the bathwater and just nerf haste rating itself. Which is pretty silly, because I am fairly certain not too many patches ago they buffed melee haste rating. Seems like the left hand doesnt communicate with the right hand for part of the Dev team.

 

Whishes

They didn nerf it, they adjusted it...
Melees need 5.2 points more of haste for 1% more attack speed.
Casters need 5.3 LESS of haste to increase the attack speed by 1%.

Seriously, I dont get it, for a caster haste is a dps boost for my entire dps.
For melees it is just a increase in white dps. (ok, warries generate more rage, and rogues have combat pot).
But I think haste is a much better stat for caster.

 

Nal

Consider the fact that auto-attack costs melee no resources while casting a spell costs a caster mana. All spell haste does is take the total amount of damage a caster could do based on his or her mana pool and compress it into a smaller period of time. That is to say, while it's a % DPS increase (and in many cases a larger one than melee will receive), it doesn't necessarily translate into a % total damage increase over the course of a particular encounter.

For melee, it's just a straight % DPS increase which will (barring threat issues) translate directly into a straight % increase in total damage done over the course of an encounter.

That's a fairly major distinction that needs to be made before evaluating the relative merits of melee and spell haste.

 

Roywyn

Also, mind you that spell haste does nothing for spells that cast faster than 1.5s since those are limited by the global cooldown of 1.5s. That includes instant cast spells. Also, the duration of DoTs is unaffected.

Affliction warlocks do 2/3 of their damage from DoTs with 0-1.5s cast time, and 1/3 from Shadow Bolts. Haste does nothing to cast time, duration or cooldown of DoTs, it only affects their filler spell (shadow bolts).
Shadow Priests have 1/4 damage from mind flay, the rest is from DoT/cooldown spells. Only mind flay benefits from haste.
Mages who spam Arcane Blast (1.5s cast) for controlled burst DPS also get no benefit for their burn phases. And it doesn't affect their most used AoE (arcane explosion, instant cast) either.


So, spell haste is really a tricky stat for caster. Depending on playstyle, it can be nice (e.g. fireball /shadow bolt spam) or or nearly useless (DoT rotations, fast spell spam), and it also increases the mana consumption in the cases where it's useful.
We rotate our shaman to chain Heroism for our melee group on Kaz'rogal (he spams Kazzak style mana-burn bombs, mana is a major concern there for everyone).