[Rogue] Haste rating info - skills

Cloak-SH · 06/14/07, 3:21 PM

I was wondering if anyone knew either off hand, or could point me to a resource that has given our skills (SnD, etc) an actual rating. Apologies if this is something that rating buster does, if it is i will just go and DL the mod after work.

What I would love info on is:

SnD
BF
Mongoose

I understand they are 30/20/and 2% respectively but i was curious what that means in terms of rating.

Ty in advance, being at work ftl.

I was also wondering if anyone has or knows of a mod that will track weapon speed throughout an encounter, something I could use to see how much +haste im actually getting from the various procs that I have, i dont think there is anything designed for it currently but my own searching time has been quite limited.

Again, ty

Edited to reflect the lack of being at work now, and gain of coherent thought.

Shaker · 06/14/07, 3:25 PM

Haste from skills is somewhat seperate from the haste given by haste rating on gear/from procs.

Haste ratings are added together to give one "haste from ratings" set, which is then multiplied into your haste from skills. In other words, the haste effect from SnD is more effective haste when used in conjunction with BF than it is if just used on it own, etc.

Cloak-SH · 06/14/07, 3:46 PM

Ty for the quick response.

So the following is true?

SnD * BF * (haste rating from other sources) = atk speed reduction

Sarutobi · 06/14/07, 3:47 PM

The 'Lightning speed' effect from Mongoose is 2% by the way.

sp00n · 06/15/07, 4:06 AM

Originally Posted by Cloak-SH

Ty for the quick response.

So the following is true?

SnD * BF * (haste rating from other sources) = atk speed reduction

Yes.

Originally Posted by Sarutobi

The 'Lightning speed' effect from Mongoose is 2% by the way.

Hm, shouldn't take place in the ratings section then, if it is a % increase.
Thinking about it, it *has* to be a % increase and not a rating. Imagine 31.54 haste rating (which is 2% on level 70) on a level 35 character.
That's 31.54/5.19 = 6.07% haste instead of 2%.

laforce · 06/15/07, 9:49 AM

So, haste is not summed up and then applied, or it has to be re-calculated for each buff? I have never tested this and I'm not home now, so I'm curious...

SnD = 30%, BF = 20%, then, say you have a 2.00 speed weapon:

1# If SnD + BF = 50%, your speed will be 2.00 * 0.5 = 1.0 speed

Or

2# If SnD and BF are applied separately, then, 2.0 * 0.7 * 0.8 = 1.12 speed

If #1 is true, then it's best if you use all of your haste trinkets and BF at the same time

If #2 is true, then it's best if you use 1 at a time and wait for one effect is over till you use another one

I've never thought about this ;/

sp00n · 06/15/07, 10:10 AM

Nope, wrong formula. Both times.

It's Speed/((1+%)*1(+%)*(haste1+haste2+haste3)) etc

So a 2.00 speed weapons with SnD & BF becomes:
2/((1+0.30)*(1+0.20))= 1.28 speed

It's best to use all haste effects at the same time, as this will maximize your haste gain (1.3*1.2 = 1.56 increase).

Lactose · 06/15/07, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by laforce

So, haste is not summed up and then applied, or it has to be re-calculated for each buff? I have never tested this and I'm not home now, so I'm curious...

SnD = 30%, BF = 20%, then, say you have a 2.00 speed weapon:

1# If SnD + BF = 50%, your speed will be 2.00 * 0.5 = 1.0 speed

Or

2# If SnD and BF are applied separately, then, 2.0 * 0.7 * 0.8 = 1.12 speed

If #1 is true, then it's best if you use all of your haste trinkets and BF at the same time

If #2 is true, then it's best if you use 1 at a time and wait for one effect is over till you use another one

I've never thought about this ;/

A 100% haste = double the amount of attacks in any given time frame. NOT infinite amount of attacks.

Hastes are applied multiplicatively.
2.0 weapon, 20% haste + 30% haste =
2.0 / (1.2*1.3) = 1.28

EDIT: Curse you sp00n!

laforce · 06/15/07, 11:15 AM

Oh... thanks for the enlightenment

Cloak-SH · 06/15/07, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

It's best to use all haste effects at the same time, as this will maximize your haste gain (1.3*1.2 = 1.56 increase).

By this theory its best to also stack haste rating as high as possible as it would be considered your third multiplicative effect right?

Which leads into my next question of when does say 100 haste rating actually fail to produce additional attacks over a one minute span. Or even where does it become less advantageous than say +hit?

100 is probably too high of a number based on itemization and current mechanics but if we put the number to say 10 or 20 id be willing to bet that it fades to insignificance faster than we think.

Then again this is only my opinion and I could be wrong :]

Katherine · 06/16/07, 5:12 AM

100 haste rating isnt too far of, if you are into Black Temple.

Essence of Souls - Grips of Damnation -> 37
BT Trash - Band of Devastation (not unique) -> 2 x 31
Craft - Swiftstrike Bracers -> 27
Craft - Swiftstrike Shoulders -> 38

Sums up quite well to 164 haste rating, which is an impressive 15.62% passiv haste. (10.5 melee haste rating = 1%)

Fugazor · 06/16/07, 5:36 AM

Add two pieces of T6 and you will have 50%+ haste with only S&D up. Ouch!

Gryzemuis · 06/16/07, 6:36 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

It's best to use all haste effects at the same time, as this will maximize your haste gain (1.3*1.2 = 1.56 increase).

Are you sure ?

Haste does not only increase your white damage.
The extra swings will also increase proc chances of all kinds of procs.

Suppose I have slice&dice up at all times.
Suppose Blade Flurry and Abacus of Violent Odds are haste abilities I can enable at will.
I guess popping a haste potion is also a haste ability at will.
Suppose Mongoose and Thundering Skyfire Diamond are haste abilites that are enabled by a proc.

According to your rule of thumb, I should wait until Thundering Skyfire Diamond procs, and then I should enable BF and Abacus, and take a haste pot. That would give the highest increase in white damage.

Another way to look at this is: use your controllable haste to make the other proccable haste procs proc as soon as possible. (I'm sorry for the awkward sentence.

)

I don't like to go full out at the beginning of a fight. So I will not use BF or Abacus during the first seconds of the fight. Say 10 seconds. During those 10 seconds, if Mongoose did not proc, I can enable BF to increase chances of Mongoose proccing. If Mongoose did proc, I will wait until Mongoose fades off, and then enable BF to try and make Mongoose proc asap again. Once Mongoose procs, I wait for it to wear off, and then use Abacus. Hopefully Mongoose will proc again. When it fades off for the second time, I can use a haste potion.

There are also the procs that have an internal cooldown. Or effects that don't stack. Using haste effects will increase the chance of a proc. But once it has procced, the cooldown/non-stacking will prevent it from proccing again during the short haste duration. If you spread out your haste effects over time, you might get more procs out of it over the full duration of a long fight.

The math is too complex for me to do this early in the morning.
But my point is: what gives more damage ? Multiplying all haste effects at the same time ? Or using haste to try to keep Mongoose up at all times ?

sp00n · 06/16/07, 8:52 AM

Use your cooldowns effectively. don't wait (too long) for anything to happen first.
Every second you do not activate BF & Abacus is a second lost.

Of course you have to wait until the tank has a comfortable advance in threat, but after that point, if you are sure you have 20 seconds of uninterrupted damage, activate BF and your trinkets.

Small example:
SnD is considered to be always active and therefore doesn't matter. A 2.6 weapon with SnD is 2.6/1.3 = 2 speed, so let's assume this speed.

Assumption
2.00 speed
0.5 swings / second
1 minute fight = 30 swings / minute

With BF
2/1.2= 1.67 speed
0.6 swings / second for 20 seconds
0.6*20 + 0.5*40 = 32 swings / minute

With BF and Abacus at the same time
2/((1.2)*(1+(260/10.52/100)))= 1.34 speed
0.748 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.748*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.5*40 = 33.48 swings / minute

BF and Abacus not at the same time
BF speed: 1.67
Abacus speed: 2/(1+(260/10.52/100))= 1.6
0.6 swings/s for 20 seconds
0.62 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6*20 + 0.62*10 + 0.5*30 = 33.2 swings / minute

So seperating your haste abilities/trinkets/potions nets you less swings/minute and therefore less chances to proc poisons/windfury/procs than if you stack them.

Marvie · 07/16/07, 4:31 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Use your cooldowns effectively. don't wait (too long) for anything to happen first.
Every second you do not activate BF & Abacus is a second lost.

Of course you have to wait until the tank has a comfortable advance in threat, but after that point, if you are sure you have 20 seconds of uninterrupted damage, activate BF and your trinkets.

Small example:
SnD is considered to be always active and therefore doesn't matter. A 2.6 weapon with SnD is 2.6/1.3 = 2 speed, so let's assume this speed.

Assumption
2.00 speed
0.5 swings / second
1 minute fight = 30 swings / minute

With BF
2/1.2= 1.67 speed
0.6 swings / second for 20 seconds
0.6*20 + 0.5*40 = 32 swings / minute

With BF and Abacus at the same time
2/((1.2)*(1+(260/10.52/100)))= 1.34 speed
0.748 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.748*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.5*40 = 33.48 swings / minute

BF and Abacus not at the same time
BF speed: 1.67
Abacus speed: 2/(1+(260/10.52/100))= 1.6
0.6 swings/s for 20 seconds
0.62 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6*20 + 0.62*10 + 0.5*30 = 33.2 swings / minute

So seperating your haste abilities/trinkets/potions nets you less swings/minute and therefore less chances to proc poisons/windfury/procs than if you stack them.

This may not quite fall under the original topic but I was curious as to the result.
With (The Armory) stats, what is the DPS comparison for the glove enchants +15agi and 10haste (formerly 1%) to gloves?