[Rogue] Haste rating info - skills - Page 2

sp00n · 07/16/07, 6:56 AM

Originally Posted by Marvie

This may not quite fall under the original topic but I was curious as to the result.
With (The Armory) stats, what is the DPS comparison for the glove enchants +15agi and 10haste (formerly 1%) to gloves?

*shrug*
We have a DPS Spreadsheet which exactly covers these sort of questions.

For me, 15 Agi is around 2 DPS better than 10 Haste Rating (as for my equipment, 1 Haste Rating is slightly more effective than 1 point Agility, but not as much as 1.5 points).

evl · 07/16/07, 8:22 AM

Any thoughts on Crystalweave Cape I've currently got Vengeance Wrap but I was wondering if Crystalweave would be slightly better fully raidbuffed.

Zurgat · 07/16/07, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by evl

Any thoughts on Crystalweave Cape I've currently got Vengeance Wrap but I was wondering if Crystalweave would be slightly better fully raidbuffed.

Well, if you compare the itemvalues on those capes.
31 AEP versus about 59 AEP, i'd say the epic cloak is a clear winner for DPS.

Ofcourse the haste rating is "nice", but not enough to throw away 28 AEP in other stats for it.

Lilias · 08/13/07, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Use your cooldowns effectively. don't wait (too long) for anything to happen first.
Every second you do not activate BF & Abacus is a second lost.

Of course you have to wait until the tank has a comfortable advance in threat, but after that point, if you are sure you have 20 seconds of uninterrupted damage, activate BF and your trinkets.

Small example:
SnD is considered to be always active and therefore doesn't matter. A 2.6 weapon with SnD is 2.6/1.3 = 2 speed, so let's assume this speed.

Assumption
2.00 speed
0.5 swings / second
1 minute fight = 30 swings / minute

With BF
2/1.2= 1.67 speed
0.6 swings / second for 20 seconds
0.6*20 + 0.5*40 = 32 swings / minute

With BF and Abacus at the same time
2/((1.2)*(1+(260/10.52/100)))= 1.34 speed
0.748 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.748*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.5*40 = 33.48 swings / minute

BF and Abacus not at the same time
BF speed: 1.67
Abacus speed: 2/(1+(260/10.52/100))= 1.6
0.6 swings/s for 20 seconds
0.62 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6*20 + 0.62*10 + 0.5*30 = 33.2 swings / minute

So seperating your haste abilities/trinkets/potions nets you less swings/minute and therefore less chances to proc poisons/windfury/procs than if you stack them.

For SnD, BF and _one_ haste effect from anouther source than skills this should be right, but this topic was about haste rating, right? So considering the fact that those effects work additive instead of multiplicative with each other, it wouldn't be wise to activate say abacus at the same time dragonstrike procs, you'd be better off waiting for the proc to wear off and use the trinket afterwards. Or am I mistaken here?

WibbleNZ · 08/13/07, 6:44 PM

Additive haste (i.e. haste rating) should provide the same benefit whether used together or separately. However the multiplicative effect of BF is going to provide more benefit if it is multiplying both additive effects rather than one.

Following Sp00n's examples (and ignoring Dragonstrike's actual speed):

Abacus & Dragonstrike separated:
Abacus speed: 2/(1+(260/10.52/100))= 1.6
0.62 swings/s for 10 seconds
Dragonstrike speed: 2/(1+(212/10.52/100))= 1.66
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6*10 + 0.62*10 + 0.5*40 = 32.2 swings / minute

Abacus & Dragonstrike together:
2/(1+((260+212)/10.52/100)) = 1.38
0.72 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.72*10 + 0.5*50 = 32.2 swings / minute

BF, Abacus & Dragonstrike:
2/((1.2)*(1+((260+212))/10.52/100)))= 1.15 speed
0.87 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.87*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.5*40 = 34.7 swings / minute

BF & Abacus together, Dragonstrike separated:
2/((1.2)*(1+(260/10.52/100)))= 1.34 speed
0.748 swings/s for 10 seconds
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds (Remaining BF)
0.6 swings/s for 10 seconds (Dragonstrike)
0.748*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.6*10 + 0.5*30 = 34.48 swings / minute

Haste pots would probably have been a better example, since you can predict their use, but the ideas are the same.

sp00n · 08/14/07, 2:13 PM

Additive haste (i.e. haste rating) should provide the same benefit whether used together or separately. However the multiplicative effect of BF is going to provide more benefit if it is multiplying both additive effects rather than one.

Well as I've said before, I wouldn't wait for procs until activating any trinket/talent that increase the hit rating.
Use it when you're comfortable with it on the earliest opportunity, to hopefully have it ready a second/third time in the fight.

And since I suppose every rogue that has gone so deep into theorycrafting also has chosen to spec BF, it kind of obsoletes any other usage.

virtuzoso · 08/18/07, 10:49 PM

From World of Raids :: Index

haste rating values have been modified on PTR for both melees and casters, these changes were unnoticed until today (thanks Deify of Forte), they are not mentioned in 2.2 PTR patch notes.

Now for the new values, check below.

Haste Rating (melee)

Live: 10.5 haste rating for 1% haste
PTR: 15.7 haste rating for 1% haste

I am pretty horrified at the change. Instead of removing or retuning gear with passive haste on it, they throw the baby out with the bathwater and just nerf haste rating itself. Which is pretty silly, because I am fairly certain not too many patches ago they buffed melee haste rating. Seems like the left hand doesnt communicate with the right hand for part of the Dev team.

Whishes · 08/19/07, 4:56 AM

They didn nerf it, they adjusted it...
Melees need 5.2 points more of haste for 1% more attack speed.
Casters need 5.3 LESS of haste to increase the attack speed by 1%.

Seriously, I dont get it, for a caster haste is a dps boost for my entire dps.
For melees it is just a increase in white dps. (ok, warries generate more rage, and rogues have combat pot).
But I think haste is a much better stat for caster.

Nal · 08/19/07, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by Whishes

Seriously, I dont get it, for a caster haste is a dps boost for my entire dps.
For melees it is just a increase in white dps. (ok, warries generate more rage, and rogues have combat pot).
But I think haste is a much better stat for caster.

Consider the fact that auto-attack costs melee no resources while casting a spell costs a caster mana. All spell haste does is take the total amount of damage a caster could do based on his or her mana pool and compress it into a smaller period of time. That is to say, while it's a % DPS increase (and in many cases a larger one than melee will receive), it doesn't necessarily translate into a % total damage increase over the course of a particular encounter.

For melee, it's just a straight % DPS increase which will (barring threat issues) translate directly into a straight % increase in total damage done over the course of an encounter.

That's a fairly major distinction that needs to be made before evaluating the relative merits of melee and spell haste.

Roywyn · 08/19/07, 5:33 AM

Also, mind you that spell haste does nothing for spells that cast faster than 1.5s since those are limited by the global cooldown of 1.5s. That includes instant cast spells. Also, the duration of DoTs is unaffected.

Affliction warlocks do 2/3 of their damage from DoTs with 0-1.5s cast time, and 1/3 from Shadow Bolts. Haste does nothing to cast time, duration or cooldown of DoTs, it only affects their filler spell (shadow bolts).
Shadow Priests have 1/4 damage from mind flay, the rest is from DoT/cooldown spells. Only mind flay benefits from haste.
Mages who spam Arcane Blast (1.5s cast) for controlled burst DPS also get no benefit for their burn phases. And it doesn't affect their most used AoE (arcane explosion, instant cast) either.

So, spell haste is really a tricky stat for caster. Depending on playstyle, it can be nice (e.g. fireball /shadow bolt spam) or or nearly useless (DoT rotations, fast spell spam), and it also increases the mana consumption in the cases where it's useful.
We rotate our shaman to chain Heroism for our melee group on Kaz'rogal (he spams Kazzak style mana-burn bombs, mana is a major concern there for everyone).

Tempestra · 08/19/07, 6:39 AM

Originally Posted by Whishes

Seriously, I dont get it, for a caster haste is a dps boost for my entire dps.
For melees it is just a increase in white dps. (ok, warries generate more rage, and rogues have combat pot).
But I think haste is a much better stat for caster.

Consider that melee haste effect is essentially a positive feedback loop that also helps "sustain" DPS:
More haste -> more swings/dmg -> more energy (combat potency) / rage (from dmg).

For casters, it is a negative feedback loop that decreases dps sustainability:
More haste -> faster casts for more dps* -> use mana faster.

*situationally - as above posters have noted, haste doesn't help 1.5 cast time spells, instants or dots.

Pleun · 08/19/07, 9:59 AM

Agree, but for a rogue to benefit of it you need a 41 point talent. I really hope they're not re-evaluating haste assuming every rogue got Combat Potency, because then they can just rename Combat to "TREE YOU NEED WHEN YOU WANT TO RAID". Then again, good luck finding a raiding rogue without it, we dont have any other options anymore.

Spades · 08/19/07, 10:01 AM

Combat has always been the DPS tree. If you want to raid seriously, you should want to do as much DPS as possible. Why wouldn't you spec combat to raid?