[Rogue] How fist+sword hybrid spec works

laforce · 06/14/07, 11:40 PM

I've been testing a MH Fist + OH Sword on PTR and I've gotten some interesting results...

16/45 build, with 5/5 imp swords, and 5/5 imp fists.. that means +5% on my MH attacks, and the ability to proc sword specialization swings.. and it does work indeed! I just dont get the order of the attacks, example:

(1) 6/15 00:18:39.359 You hit Shienor Talonite for 421.
(2) 6/15 00:18:39.359 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
(3) 6/15 00:18:39.359 You hit Shienor Talonite for 163.
(4) 6/15 00:18:39.781 You crit Shienor Talonite for 769.

Which hit is my sword spec dmg, and which hit proc'd the dmg? I have a 1.5 low dmg sword on OH and a high dmg fist on MH... I'm soo confused! Did it proc a OH swing? I thought OH sword procs a MH attack.. :O

Another set:

(1) 6/15 00:20:08.296 You hit Shienor Talonite for 162.
(2) 6/15 00:20:08.671 Shienor Talonite hits you for 243.
(3) 6/15 00:20:09.562 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
(4) 6/15 00:20:09.562 You hit Shienor Talonite for 170.
(5) 6/15 00:20:09.578 You hit Shienor Talonite for 361.
(6) 6/15 00:20:10.015 You crit Shienor Talonite for 849.

Can someone help me understand this? This might be a freakin awesome build.. :P

Mahama · 06/15/07, 12:18 AM

You'd read those lines as follows:
1) MH attack
2) Sword spec proc
3) Off-hand hit that procced Sword spec
4) Sword spec MH crit

And the other one:
1) OH attack
2) Mob attack
3) Sword spec proc
4) Off-hand hit that procced Sword spec
5) Sword spec MH hit
6) MH attack

I've been playing with Fist/Sword spec for the last month or so rather than sword spec, simply because of the weapons available to me. Consider that in the patch though, all sword spec attacks will be normal white main-hand attacks. This obviously means that it will no longer proc combat potency, but what it does mean is that it should have the potential to proc off itself, as well as proc any other poisons or on-hit trinkets (I did about 30 minutes of testing on sword spec, but would have to go back through it to confirm this because I was more interested in whether the sword spec procs where main hand or off-hand). Obviously having a main hand fist would nullify that effect.

I would put Fist/Sword spec far ahead of pure Fist though, simply because you're giving up 5% crit on your off-hand for a 5% chance to get an extra main hand attack... Fairly easy choice.

sp00n · 06/15/07, 4:30 AM

You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.

Oh no, has it been changed back to this inaccurate display in the combat log?
I hoped they would keep "Your Swordspec hits xx for yy" and just make it white damage.

laforce · 06/15/07, 5:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mahama

You'd read those lines as follows:
1) MH attack
2) Sword spec proc
3) Off-hand hit that procced Sword spec
4) Sword spec MH crit

And the other one:
1) OH attack
2) Mob attack
3) Sword spec proc
4) Off-hand hit that procced Sword spec
5) Sword spec MH hit
6) MH attack

I've been playing with Fist/Sword spec for the last month or so rather than sword spec, simply because of the weapons available to me. Consider that in the patch though, all sword spec attacks will be normal white main-hand attacks. This obviously means that it will no longer proc combat potency, but what it does mean is that it should have the potential to proc off itself, as well as proc any other poisons or on-hit trinkets (I did about 30 minutes of testing on sword spec, but would have to go back through it to confirm this because I was more interested in whether the sword spec procs where main hand or off-hand). Obviously having a main hand fist would nullify that effect.

I would put Fist/Sword spec far ahead of pure Fist though, simply because you're giving up 5% crit on your off-hand for a 5% chance to get an extra main hand attack... Fairly easy choice.

Thanks for clarifing... I can see now that, even if you have a fist on MH, the OH sword spec will proc a MH fist attack, that's awesome

Having +5% crit on of your SS/Evis/etc *and* having x% of chance to proc sword spec is awesome in my opinion... Also, I'd think that sword spec procs much more from OH (faster?!) than MH.. so, let's say we'd still have a ~3% sword spec proc...

I really need to test that new Season 2 MH Fist + OH sword combo..

laforce · 06/15/07, 9:34 AM

Any thought from other testers?

• Shifft · 06/15/07, 10:23 AM

Wow...I'd never actually considered a build like this, but looking at the talent trees from my current build...

Lose 2/2 Vitality, Lose 2/2 Murder, Down to 2/3 Imp Evis (from 3/3)...maybe change around the points in Murder and Imp Evis.

All in all a fairly negligible loss when compared to a 5% chance for an extra MH swing...this needs testing! I'll get on PTR tonight when I get home and buy an offhand sword if nothing's been done by that time.

Edit: On second thought I don't even like Imp Kick anymore, so put those points in Imp Evis/Murder for even more DPS

laforce · 06/15/07, 12:00 PM

@ Shifft

You dont need to lose Vitality...

You can spec 16/45, but you will lose Imp Evis (well, who uses evis? I like rupture a LOT better, much more consistent damage.. I hate when I see a 1400dmg non-crit evis

.. while Rupture ticks for ~300 x 8 = 2400dmg.. every single time.)

I tested on the PTR like below (assassination tree):
5/5 Malice
3/3 Ruthlessness
2/2 Murder
5/5 Lethality
1/1 Relentless strikes

45 points on combat.. just the usual non-riposte build, xcept with 5/5 fist and 5/5 swords

Cheers \o/

Lucke · 06/15/07, 12:18 PM

I thought the PTR also changed the OH sword procs so that it actually followed the OH dmg table? That would mean that the extra attack no longer comes from the MH, or in this case the fist...

Spades · 06/15/07, 12:24 PM

The combat log excerpts he posted show this is clearly not the case, although if you have an appreciably fast offhand that can crit for 769, I'd like to borrow it for a while.

Lucke · 06/15/07, 12:27 PM

I must have missed it; on my 15 minute lunch break while teaching summer school, just catching up on my theory-crafting while I eat

Lucke · 06/15/07, 12:30 PM

1) 6/15 00:18:39.359 You hit Shienor Talonite for 421.
(2) 6/15 00:18:39.359 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
(3) 6/15 00:18:39.359 You hit Shienor Talonite for 163.
(4) 6/15 00:18:39.781 You crit Shienor Talonite for 769.

Ok, now I am looking at this again and I am having trouble following - it appears to me that the attack immediately following the SS proc hits for 163, which would put it on the OH dmg table; the 769 = the MH normal swing?

7 minutes to go on lunch, go go response!

Spades · 06/15/07, 12:34 PM

1 = MH swing
2 = Sword Spec Proc
3 = OH swing that procced sword spec
4 = resulting Sword Spec swing

The "You gain an extra attack from blah blah" has always been fairly terrible at providing accurate information with regards to who procced what. I do find it odd that both the MH and the OH swings went off at the same time. I wonder what his weapon speeds are.

laforce · 06/15/07, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Spades

1 = MH swing
2 = Sword Spec Proc
3 = OH swing that procced sword spec
4 = resulting Sword Spec swing

The "You gain an extra attack from blah blah" has always been fairly terrible at providing accurate information with regards to who procced what. I do find it odd that both the MH and the OH swings went off at the same time. I wonder what his weapon speeds are.

A.K.A Laaaaaaagggggg...

Weapons speed were: Bladefist (2.6 I think) and Merciless Gladiator Quickblade (1.5).. they both went off at the same time just coz of lag issues.. but I'm 100% sure that OH procs do proc a MH swing, not OH.

My latency is usualy 350-450ms, hehe.

• Shifft · 06/15/07, 1:45 PM

Oh well I considered vitality less important than 2/3 imp evis, since I actually end up eviscerating quite regularly in raids because of:

Void Reaver
Hydross
Kael Weapons (i think?)
More than 4 secs left on rupture and 5cps.
Mob almost dead.

I think it'd end up being better.

Cunning · 06/15/07, 3:51 PM

I tried doing a fist/sword build prior to the change to sword specialization. At that time, it actually proved to be a considerable amount less damage, (I was weighing 5/5 Vile Poisons v.s. 5/5 Sword Specialization at the time).

However, I hadn't even thought to try it after, that is until reading this thread. If I get a chance to respec before Gruul tonight, I'll give it a shot.

With the previous tests I had done, I was particularly interested in "effects" such as combat potency procs, poison procs etc. I had kept combat logs, and processed them through WWS for comparison and will do the same this time.

I'll update this post with a link to my WWS site once I've had a chance to get some testing done.