Logun

It's 3/3 Arcane Impact.

 

◊ manly

If many WWS parses aren't enough to convince them, nothing will.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

galzohar

Remmeber that the increase in mana you get from gear upgrades is a joke compared to the mana you have from starting mana+evocation+gems+potions+shadow priest+totems+BoW+JoW, and costs way too many itemization points for how much it helps even if you're hurting for mana badly at any point in a fight.

 

Logun

AM spam does just fine with interrupts, well over 1k in DPS.

 

Logun

Have him watch the lurker video in the thread I linked.

 

Imbar

Wow. Basically all of his initial casts are refunded by the priest?

WTB Shadow Priest

I guess as a whole, we have some things to learn about the way the big boys play. I'll take all these suggestions to our raid leader. Thanks for the input

 

Logun

You'll find that most people don't like change but if you are tactful, you should be able to bring him around.

 

JasonX

Overall, I feel that Mages should always be grouped with a S.Priest due to our poor mana regen. I hate this aspect of TBC. Its like our mana regen did not get any scaling due to the existence of S.priest.

Anyway, back to the arcane mage discussion. I'm currently arcane now (yes, I watched Domin's movie and have seen Logun posting everywhere...lol!). after getting 2/5 T5 recently. All I'm interested in is how far can I push Arcane spec damage.

For thrash mob, arcane is unrivalled, but is irrelevant since those are just thrashes. On raid bosses with frequent threat reset (Hydross, Leo...etc), arcane has an edge. On long fights where I will go OOM even with a S.priest, I feel that fire does better since fire never goes OOM. Basically, my experience as an arcane mage is that my ability to perform is totally dependant on my ability to sustain a high dps rotation without going oom. If I have to hold back on my 3xAB->AM->scorch rotation, I lose dps. Fire do not have such issues and is simply more stable in performance.

 

Imbar

Just got back from a Kara run, had a shadow priest come with who was apped with us.
Sustained around 1100dps on the boss fights, 1400 on trash (AB spam ftw)
The mana regen is insane. I agree with the above post that by ourselves, our mana regen is horribly gimp.

I also had BoW/BoK/BoSalv on me, so -70% aggro? Good game.
I'm so incredibly pleased with Arcane now that I was able to play it to it's full potential.

I've convinced our locks to work out a rotation for their curses, and if this S.Priest app gets a ginvite, he'll be in my group /grin

 

Aoife

Aggro reduction is multiplicative I believe.

So .6*.7=42% aggro generated, so -58% aggro.

I specced Arcane to play around awhile, it's kind of nice to be able to actually dump my mana at the beginning, then use Evocation and Gem to get back to full so I can use 2 evocations in a fight easy most of the time.

The damage was ok, not earth shatteringly great, but it wasn't terrible either.

 

Zure

I'm confused why arcane mages don't use an ABx --> scorch --> AM rotation. If you get a clearcast on the AB you can then /stopcast another AB or an AM instead of the scorch.

 

Imbar

Orly? Learn something new every day.
In any case, with a good tank, good luck pulling aggro.

 

galzohar

Yes they multiply, and yes you have full rights to never group with that tank again if you pull aggro with such aggro reduction. If I even get near with salv+shaman totem (which is only 20% isntead of 40%, using 10/48/3), I know the tank either sucks or is like getting bitched at by his GF or something ;p

Also I like the idea of spamming AB at the start for early evocation, can't wait for 2/5 T5...

 

JasonX

I think the rotation of ABx3->AM->scorch is pretty good already. Its usually after the AM is casted, then I will decide what to cast next depending on whether Clearcasting proc.

 

Kavan

This was partially brought up before, but I'd like some more debate about this. I've recently done some number crunching regarding socketing for a guildie that wants to try arcane. One thing that I find interesting to discuss is what to put in yellow and blue sockets as for red +damage is the best choice in most situations.

As I mentioned before in my current situation Potent Noble Topaz (dmg/crit) started to outperform Brilliand Dawnstones (int) slightly. For the other mage however int gems were superior. I think there are several factors that influence the breaking point. One is the ability to do ABx3+AM+Scorch throughout all the fight. If you don't have enough mana to sustain this then I think int comes ahead. If you're already able to use a lot of AB spam then value of int lowers as conversion of mana to damage is less efficient. The other factor is crit based enhancers. This would include Lightning Capacitor and Relentless gem. For me until I started using Relentless int gems were still better.

While yellow gems are comparable in value to +damage gem this is not the case for blue gems. Effective value of blue gems in general is about 60-70% of +damage gem. There are two reasones why you should use one anyway. First is for meta requirements. The other is when you have very good socket bonuses (for example +5 damage). From the normal gems I find Dazzling Talasite (int/mp5) has the most value. There is only one blue gem (pre BT) that is comparable with +damage gem. That is Fluorescent Tanzanite (damage/spi) from heroic Blood Furnace.

 

Aoife

The thing is though, base int has nothing to do with what amount of time you can sustain a rotation. The amount of mana you get back from pots, gems, buffs, shadow priest and shaman totems do however. Sure, higher int allows you to use have a little more mana to run a higher mana rotation, but only because you don't go oom after a certain amount of time, not because it actually enhances your mana regen.

I found ABx3/AM barely dented my mana pool with a shadow priest and shaman in my group. The point at which Deep Arc starts to become a mana hog is when you start casting AB after you've built up the ABx3 debuff already.

 

Kavan

Ok I will agree that this might be a slight flaw with the theoretical framework I'm using. But if you're optimizing damage on a fight of a given length then obviously starting mana pool will have an influence on total mana you can spend in the fight.

Now the question is if this is significant and what is its value. And it has to be clear we're talking about marginal values here. As a gnome full arcane mage 1 int is worth 19 mana. If we take an example where starting mana pool is the least effective, for example 10 minute fight with shadow priest and judgement of wisdom and look at the marginal total damage increase from int and corresponding mana we can see that initial mana pool portion corresponds to 14% of the value that int has. The rest of the value goes is attributed to increased spell damage and crit.

This is for the worst possible situation and converting mana into AB spam damage. 14% might seem low but it is a significant portion that is only larger in shorter fights with less regen options. For example in a 7 min fight withut JoW the contributing factor is already 30% and only increases for ultra short 3-4 min fights.

I really don't see how one can ignore this. A standard reply is usually that you should pot more if you need more mana. That is really not the point as if you're going for max you're going to use pots in any case. This does not invalidate the value that initial mana pool has on total damage you can do.

 

Aoife

Well, with a shadow priest, shaman and full raid buffs. I could probably go with ABx3/AM for a good 6-7 minutes using just gems and evocation.

Obviously, shorter fights are going to favor bigger mana pools for Deep Arcane since you can turn mana into damage incredibly fast, but overall, I'm under the impression that +damage is going to increase your DPM and DPS more than +intellect. It's been awhile since I ran the numbers with my spec and gear (which have changed) so I'll have to look into it a bit more.

 

Kavan

Yes you're right, +9 damage is sligtly better than +8 int (by about 10-11%). However most socket bonuses are good enough that they overcome the slight advantage that +9 damage gem has.

 

Aoife

Most socket bonuses on lots of the good gear is +stam (Spellfire and Spellstrike for example) and for gear that skews PvE, DPS>stamina

 

Xei

Read through most of the thread and it is indeed very interesting. I love the arcane tree and am keen to try it out once I get my second T5 piece - but I think I will only have my Mages use it for Al'ar (Fire Immune I assume) then go back to 10/48/3.

There is no doubt that it is viable, and the pro's and con's can go on all day - and certain fights will favor certain spec's. But the theorycrafting of all Mages Arcane to drop CoE in favour of CoA/CoD and seeing if the effectiveness will increase raid DPS blah blah blah. Getting a little out of hand if you ask me.

"Being a leader is not a position of power. It is a position of service." ~ Barestomper

WTB Oceanic Horde PvE Players

 

Imbar

This also brings up another good point, the value of mp5 for an arcane mage. I'm not saying drop other stats in favor of pure mp5, but for instance, Restore Mana Prime to Chest, and Vitality to boots, are more favorable than for instance +6 stats and +12 stam respectively.

I've also found +int gems to be of great value in limitation fights, e.g.: Fights with adds where your shadow priest may be on adds and therefore not putting up Vamp Touch/Embrace as quickly. But again, this is no reason to completely dump another stat for int, just an observation.

 

Shawn

MP5 is worth much less than spirit, mana regeneration-wise. With Arcane Meditation and Mage Armor (and Improved Divine Spirit for an extra bang) you would rather socket Spirit than MP5. Though neither can even scratch the effectivity of damage enhancing gems.
On chest I'd always go with stats to enhance your manareg, damage and survivabilty at the same time. On boots Boar's speed is king, also in PvE (think heavy mobility fights...).

 

Frostx

Hi there, long time reader but new poster :S managed to get this WWS tonight on Void Reaver, hope its useful to you theorycraft n math whizs

Frostx - WWS

i had 2 spriests so i was doing AB most of the time, but usually i'd be AB/AB/Scorch/AM. i'll try to get more 'normal' WWSs on more static bosses and with only 1 spriest next time.

on a sidenote: should i swap trinkets to Neth Tear + Icon ? =\

 

Logun

Here's Lhivera's Newest Theorycraft Calculator. It is the most user friendly and accurate one I have been able to find. It lets you select the the different types of builds and compare their outputs side by side in a readout. It will also show all the basic DPS/DPM results as well as how much DPS/DPM each trinket would add to your build, how much each Stat is worth to your build, and your Threat per second.

Theard
WoW Forums -> Theorycrafting page (BETA)
Calculator
Lhivera's Theorycraft Script

These are the stats that I put into mine.
The Armory
Unadjusted
Intel= 465
Spirit= 185
Haste= 0
Hit= 83
Crit= 20
Arcane= 1096
Fire= 1046
Latecny= 50ms

Here is just a small peice of the of data

Deep Arcane
DPS= 1,094.74: Arc Blast x3 / Arc Missiles (1 Scorch injected)DPS= 1,472.16: Arcane Blast / spammedDPS= 989.87: Arcane Missiles
Deep Fire
DPS= 1,107.48: Fireball x8/Scorch x1
Lhivera will be adding a option to select t5 set bonus as the above data does not include it.
The above data also does not take into account that the arcane mage will be AB spamming the last 20% of the boss fight. However, Combustion is given a flat 3% crit and Molten Fury is given a flat 4% damage increase which I think is more than it should be since the last 20% interval is shorter than another other 20% interval in a fight (Everyone nuking, Warriors Executing, Mages ABing/Molten Furying ext.) I personally know that I can pull more out of an arcane build than I can out of any other build. Arcane requires more attention to detail and some mages just arn't able to adjust. Just like any other build, you need to gear for it and invest time in learning it.