I can't fathom that all arcane spec could push was sub 1k dps with 2 shadow priests. That's the dps I had on my worst void reaver attempt with no coe up (only 1 mage).
Wow Web Stats

Logun, again, please do not post deceptive information. Your gear is made for an arcane build, and as such, has extremely low hit ratings (since you don't really need much with arcane spec). You have at least 7% to hit that is being unaccounted for in your gear (besides the fact that you have 1046 fire dmg vs 1096 arcane damage).

Plus its not clear what options were put. JOW is not standard practice on raid bosses, I have no idea if that option was turned on. I don't know either if molten armor was used for fire and whether mage armor/molten armor was used for arcane. I don't believe 50ms is realistic either, but thats probably just a minor point.

I know if I put my gear in there I get considerable change in values, but needless to say gear difference won't make the comparison fair.

EDIT: In addition to all of this you also readily admit that the page doesn't take into account 2pc T5, which makes both your arcane dps and fire dps numbers not usable.

RE-EDIT: It doesn't allow to input elemental shamans, which benefit fire mages better due to 3% to hit which is kind of hard to get any use for arcane.

Just a side note, while Deep Fire (Pre T5 2) does scale better as you appoarch +1500 Arcane/Fire damage, Deep fire will be generating over 1300 TPS vs 875 in arcane. I don't care how good your tank is, 1300 TPS is no joke. Deep fire is either gonna have to wait a bit longer to open up or be ready to use thier Invis.

It is no joke, I will not lie to you. But that TPS does not take into account blessing of salvation.

All buffs were included. CoE CoS Misery Jow.
Mage Armor
I have a shitty FR offhand

Jow is a standard practice in my raids.

Change it too 100ms if you like.

As you said, I am geared for arcane. If I geared for fire I would have to drop +damage for hit. It also looks like +1 hit rating = 1.8 damage so that is in Deep Fires favor.

This is Pre T5 set bonus and does not include my AB spam at the end. Deep Fire has better DPM but there is no staggering Difference in DPS.

Then you are being deceptive b/c you are geared for deep fire.

I think Manly's point is that the comparison has little meaning as you'd wear different gear for each spec. The page only lets you use 1 gear set effectively - you've used 1 stacked for Arcane, he would use 1 stacked for Fire, both ways are "deceptive". Manly never posted his stats or suggested that him doing so wouldn't be heavily in favour of fire.

(b/c is not a word. Because is.)

Manly made no claim of the sort. He is merely pointing out that you are using stacked data. Comparing apples to oranges convinces no one.

How am I deceptive ? I have not posted any information. All I said was that you are using arcane gear and just switch things for an arcane spec, thus giving poor numbers.

Its the same as if I took my gear, posted numbers clearly favoring fire, then using that sheet, selecting arcane spec, and post very poor numbers, since I have tons of excessive hit ratings which have absolutely no use for that spec.

EDIT: I just want to be clear. I am not against arcane spec. I have tried it myself last week. It wasn't up to my expectations but the results were good nevertheless. I openly encourage posting arcane dps numbers. However, as soon as anyone gives any hint of comparing specs, or total damage, or spreadsheets, or whatever, I want to make sure things are being compared fairly. But regardless of whether or not the comparison is fair, it is very debatable that the numbers you posted for arcane damage are acceptable ! I think everyone will agree that if you want to play arcane spec, you assume a shadow priest in your group, that's fine, its a given. I was the one that posted on the matter, saying that the true source of arcane mage power is shadow priests. Comparing anything that doesn't give a shadow priest both side is unfair. But I think that likewise, a lot of people will agree that only numbers including 2pc T5 should be used when giving out arcane dps numbers. I wrongly assumed you had 2pc T5, but I would be far more interested in viewing numbers including the 2pc T5 set bonus.

The calculator is not limited to only comparing one set of gear. By all means, do single read outs with sets of gear.

Last I checked "b/c" was an acceptable forum short hand for "because". People say "fuck" here and you call me out for using short hand?

Of course but you didn't do that. You posted your arcane stacked gear and then the side by side comparision of an arcane spec and deep fire spec.

EDIT: I think the calculator is very nice but I don't think it really has a place in this thread. It should have gone in the Mage Theorycrafting thread as an interesting new tool to use.

As would I. I am eagerly awaiting my 2nd piece of T5 as well as Lhivera's addition to the calculator. I apologize if I misunderstood your stance on arcane.

I posted with the gear I have avaible at the moment. Sure, I can run some instances and acquire more Fire friendly gear but If I respeced right now, this is what I would have.

Well, I can't recall the quote offhand, but I remember reading a savant saying that 'accepting the definitions of your enemy in a debate means you already lost the debate'. I think that poorly requoted quote is very true in essence, and as such, I will have to disagree with your naming nomenclature of what is deceptive. Truth be told, I said the posted numbers were deceptive, not really you as a player. Again, if things are getting to a personal level, it typically means the conversation at hand is going out of hand, to say the least.

If anything, I think someone should make a list of a 'standard arcane gearset', input it somewhere where the 2pc T5 set bonus works, then post the results. If you want to compare with fire, not that it is needed, then make sure you do the same for fire.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the calculator having a place in this thread. The thread is about "How can arcane damage work". ABx2 FBx2 is not how "We" DPS, the calculator shows many different DPS rotations aviable to an arcane mage and the DPM of each.

But I do agree that this should also be posted in the Theorycrafting thread.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Edit: But I was not aware we were enemies.

Sounds like something Sun Tzu would say.

which is why i said id try to get a better WWS, i ate 5 orbs and was moving around a lot for this particular VR

He's no savant but Paul Begala said it as "Defining the terms of the debate generally dictates who's gonna' win it" and I'd agree there. What spec is 'best' as an argument will always bog down into semantics and while entertaining and occasionally informative, isn't terribly decisive.

Let's get this back to how the people who are going to use Arcane (you poor misguided fools!) can be ideally productive. Well, that or don't as I think this thread has covered most of it.

I'll be honest with you and say that I think VR is hard to use as a benchmark. Yes, you can get unlucky streaks on orbs, and yes it does mess up DPS. I think arcane would have more issues dealing with movements in relation to DPSing properly, and thus, I readily admit the fight should favor fire. This is what I have experienced when I was arcane, it was that anything that doesn't involves dpsing (movements, decursing, sheeping, etc.) will mess up your rotations. It is OK if you move as you have only 1 or 2 stacks of AB up, but if you have 3 stacks of AB, and you move, then your next spell is likely to be AM (stopcasted with 0.9s remaining), but depending on how long you did move, you might mess up the recasting of your next 3xAB, AM, scorch rotation, since you won't get the increased casting speed on your first AB.

Its a bit messy to explain, but I think your WWS shows that problem very well, despise having an almost optimal group configuration for the fight.

Sun Tzu is pretty awesome you have to admit.

Intellect is by far the best "mana stat" for mages, that much should be pretty obvious. Stacking mana regen isn't really valuable unless you're talking about a limited-options enchant slot.

You're quite right there =) Sadly the closest available boss that can be used to benchmark would be Karathress. i'll get a WWS of that later in the week.

I agree with all of the above except for the following.

I'd socket with +9/12 damage gems forgoing all set bonuses accept significant +damage ones. If you are dying b/c of low health, i'd consider the above or L2use Imp Blink.

For an arcane mage, 1 damage = ~1.8 crit so unless you can get 2 for 1, stick with +damage.

I'd also advise going with the Crusades Deck over ISC if you have the G.

In addition, get Sublty to cloak as I have found ZERO use for 20 pen.