You cant honestly make comments like this and expect people to take the rest of your post... seriously. I can assure you, regardless of what raid setup I have - im always well above protection warriors.

I still find it funny and somewhat ironic that in the current raiding game, which rewards/encourages people to make use of clever synergy for best individual results (from things ranging from group setup, class composition, people getting innevates etc) people seem to feel this synergy should be 'excluded' and 'doesnt count' when comparing spec performance in a raid setting. If your talking about raids, all those aforementioned things are an integral part of lots of guilds' raids, not something we do 'for the sake of it' - and shouldnt be casually dismissed.

"How good is my guilds raid setup, when it comes to letting me make the most of my specs dps? " is what people should ask themself.

It has been fairly established that arcane has more potential to benefit from various raid setups/stackings (spriest, innevates, totems etc) than other specs. Some people view this as a strength, others find it a weakness. Personally I think its a big strength that in a team setup, I can use other members of the team to be considerably stronger. However some people have more a 'I want to be the best I can without outside help' attitude - and thats OK - everyone has a different attitude to performance/playstyle.

IMO, People will be happier if their spec matches what their guild offers them. If your guild is very pro-active and capable when it comes to finding niche ways to maximise player dps - you would likely enjoy the way your team-players can augment your performance playing as arcane. (I do..)

If your guild doesnt (like the poster who says his guild doesnt think 'dps is important' enough to ever consider totems/spriest/innevates etc) then being in a spec that excels with synergy, but in a raid that prohibits just that - doesnt make much sense either.

Your comment inadvertantly sums up why I like arcane alot and its biggest strength. Im 'fine' on my own, but with varying conditions (id rather say that than 'ideal' etc) my character has the potential for so much more. Raiding is a team effort, so playing such a way that your team is what augments and measures your strength - is very appealing. But, of course, its not everyones cup of tea - and thats OK, each to their own.

You are entitled to your uninformed opinions at home. However, as manly has stated multiple times, they have no place in this thread. Please don't post again unless you have something concrete to add.

This is some unreal theorycraft here, i really appreciate all the well thought out advice and ideas.

I am not as 'sharp' as everyone here it seems, i was wondering, if there was an easy way to decide, what I should be spec'd based on my crit/dmg/hit etc. I look at all the spreadsheets and they are just confusing as hell to me :-/

spec'd 43/18/0 right now and I have 642 base dmg, 845 arcane, 885 fire, 24% crit, 68 hit (5.4%) and it's OK. i was 10/48/3 and my guild has been pushing HUGE for arcane saying it's the best etc etc.. even without 2 t5....

Any help or ideas where I can find something, for the less technical inclined....

-Bittersweet

Try this, it is much more user-friendly.
Lhivera's Theorycraft Script

Ummm, it does top the meter, every fight, every night.

Please avoid blanket statements like this.

Maybe if they remove the 10% tax and I get 4 piece t6 I'll switch back to fire.

Until then, with t5 2 piece and the correct equipment layout you will make people cry with your damage.

End of story.

Drax, what is your current Macro for spell rotation? I saw some of your post where you had the issue with 2 scorches coming out, but didn't see the solution come out. I here a lot about you on my server, seems some friends of yours are friends of mine. They want me to follow exactly what you do... so I am trying :-)

This is a big point for me actually,

If we have 1 shadowpriest we put it in a healer group as a couple of us need the extra regen. If we have 2, hunter/mage group will normally get it.

As we have 4 33/28 arcane mages should we be thinking of putting that 1 spriest in the mage group rather than healers, IF our healers can survive. How much of a damage increase are we talking? - we also have 2 shammies and our ele shammy obviously goes in with the mages if hes in the raid.

Dps getting innervates. I find during most raids, (eg we run tidewalker and fathom lord with 7 healers after only killing them 3 and 1 respectively, so relatively low healer numbers) I am Always using my innervate on myself because i need to. For a mage with a spirit staff id imagine it would regen something about an extra 3k mana, Is that going to increase an arcane mages dps by like 30%? im curious if any arcane mages have documented a dps increase when given an innervate/shadowpriest/manatide.

Hi Bittersweet. Given the numbers you are giving me, I wouldn't recommend a fire spec for you. Fire is good at higher damage levels (800+ base damage), otherwise it isn't as interesting. I believe that, if I were you, given the few hit gear you posses, I would probably go for a full arcane build, with 2-3xAB, arcane missiles, scorch rotation in mind. I would recommend 48/13, but any spec that has 40+ in arcane will do. And in case you ask, no, as you already know, arcane does not beat fire without 2pc t5. But it shouldn't matter since with your gear fire is not optimal.

PS: Also, there are strict forums rules against signing up your posts. Just please try and avoid it
Ah finally, someone that has something to add to the conversation. About group composition:

A perfect group composition, that isn't slanted towards making mages the top starts but rather the raid work best as a whole, would be a raid where you have shadow priests able to do good dps. The more your shadow priests can do dps, the more mages can do dps (ie: arcane mages really, fire mages not as much).

elemental shaman
shadow priest
destro lock (to keep isb up. also here because destro lock have the least crit, and benefits the most/makes other benefits most if ISB is kept up)
mage (any spec)
mage (any spec)

The destro lock can be in another group, but what is important is that your destro lock is grouped with your elemental shaman. Group-wide, this accomplishes far more dps than sadly a mage slot. ISB is *huge for shadow priests and warlocks. With that kind of group composition, your shadow priest should give you excellent mana returns, simply because hes in an optimal group composition.

Also, I am sorry. But innervates should go to shadow priests, unless they can't make use of it. Exactly as you said, the raid as a whole is more important than one individual performances. With that in mind, it should almost always go towards your shadow priest, unequivocally.

I believe fire mages gain more from elemental shamans than arcane mages, simply because I cannot imagine an arcane mage with less than 3% spell hit. Even if I tried to remove all my spell hit I don't think I could get it that low. Also, I admitted many times that arcane mages exists solely because shadow priests exists; it is their true strength. Without a shadow priest an arcane mage dps will really tank. Arcane can sustain great dpm, but unfortunately at the cost of poor dps. I think if you don't have a shadow priest regularly you shouldn't play arcane spec, but that is nothing more than a personal opinion.

I think it is important to note here that for every group synergy that you mention that makes arcane soo great, you seem to lose sight of the fact that each of those synergy come inevitably with someone else paying for it. For example: destro locks are, by far, the best contender for an elemental shaman. Sure, its not needed. But if you just stack your mages with elemental shaman/spriest/3xmage, than your spriests/warlocks will 'suffer' from it. You will also get less mana from your shadow priest because he can't dps as well as he can. JOW can be great for an arcane mage, but you force a paladin to go in and apply it. This can turn messy if debuff keeps falling off. JOW inevitably eats up a debuff slot, which another dps class could use. Yes, you could say 'but arcane doesnt use any debuff slots, while fire takes 1 shared across all fire mages, plus one ignite per mage'. Well yes. And yes JOW is also great for hunters. But never forget that it means you need a pally to go in and apply JOW. If you run in a raid where the core mentality is DPS should come first, then that means you run with as few healers as possible, ideally 6 on average per raid. With such as amount of healers, barring some odd mechanic, your paladin will probably simply not have the time to go in to apply JOW.

Manly i have a question, here are the facts

> we have 4 mages at core raider or higher in guild, none have 2 piece t5, all have between 900-1100 damage, (2 have 750 to all schools and 900ish fire),

> they range between 6% hit and 14% hit on gear,

> between 18 and 35% crit chance. One has 18% to all schools and 24% to fire, another(with illhoof trinket) has 26% and 35% to fire.

> I believe only one or two has the lightning cap trinket from illhoof.

> All are specced 33/28

> we now have access too 2 piece t5 with fathom lord and lootreaver down.

Our mages do, _ok_ damage. None really really shine in raids that often. For single target fights, maybe one might make the top five with a couple of rogues, hunter and a couple of warlocks beating them (all relatively geared equally), on aoe fights they are always being beaten by all the warlocks. I think the warlocks all topped out at around 1.1k dps On morogrim with most mages behind them at 800-950.

Coming from a rogue where hit was my everything, i would say as a presumtion that dropping some crit getting more hit(for the 5% hit mages) and respeccing deep fire would be much more beneficial, however i am probably wrong. Do you think by respeccing to deep fire they would improve their damage, and then perhaps deep arcane if they manage to obtain 2piece t5? For Aoe and Single target boss fights, just for instance Morogrim tonight, aoeing the adds, or single target dpsings on Fathom lord? its probably hard to tell precisely and its very late so i appologise for the crapness of this post xD

edit: but i like my innervate :~(

No, under 100% of circumstances, an arcane mage will never need an innervate. Arcane mages are built to constantly adapt their mana consumption at the same rate as it is available. If they go OOM before the boss is down, then you know the arcane mage fucked up, no matter how you try to put it (or you run a fight with lots of aoe and few aoers). They don't need more mana. They just want more mana, since that means they will top meters. But they can and will dps as normal if you don't give it to them.

The more mana an arcane mage has, the less damage per mana he will do. He will gain extra dps, but at the cost of using that extra mana in a mana inefficient way. Whereas you could use it on yourself, a healing druid, and keep on getting 100% HPM returns for your mana instead of 80%- (and probably less, it depends on mana available) DPM returns from a normal mana consumption rate.

Ok. Let it be said that, when comparing one class versus another in a raid, one major detail will inevitably crop up. Group composition will affect greatly each class DPS. If your mages don't typically shine, then it seems there is more in play than gear. On morogrim, I would not be surprised if your warlocks top the meters because seed of corruption can do more damage than mages' aoe. It depends on an awful lot of things which class is meant to top meters on aoe fights, but assuming an average performance from both classes I would expect warlocks to top meters. Your mages should exclusively be spamming arcane explosion and blastwave, no flamestrike (for 33/28), if they want the best aoe dps. [The Lightning Capacitor] is the best aoe trinket in the game. But unfortunately, unless you kill morogrim very slowly, and thus, see many aoe phases, aoe dps should not be accounting for most of the mage dps on morogrim. If it does, then something is unusual or suboptimal.

Please note that your 33/28 mages should not be using the lightning capacitor. It is not good for any build that uses fireball in their cycle. Also, as you noted, their hit gear is low. For almost every single mage spec, the priority in gear is: hit (1.1 - 1.4x) > spell damage (1x) > spell haste (0.9x) > crit (0.85-0.9x). Please note that the 'average' multipliers I put in there are more figure values than actually calculated values. They will all vary depending on spec and gear, but the numbers I posted should give a good rule of thumb.

I don't think your mages will regem their sockets with spell hit gems. I would be surprised. However, what they can do is change some gear around. Some decent spell hit gear:

[Neltharion's Tear]
[Ruby Drape of the Mysticant]
[Ashyen's Gift]
[Band of Crimson Fury]
[Mantle of the Elven Kings]
[Boots of Blasting]
[Spellstrike Hood] - +head enchant
[Spellstrike Pants]

With their gear level they would probably do better as fire spec, but I doubt anyone will change their playstyle based on an internet post. Their rotation should be 2-3x AB, 2x fireball with a 33/28 build. Yes, they would probably get better results with 10/48/3, but assuming they will stay the same spec, they should begin by fixing their gearing up, which means remove lightning capacitor and put something like icon of silver crescent or something.

Er, this pair of pargraphs looks all kind of messed up.

You're saying they'll top the meter if they get more mana, but they'll dps "as normal" if they don't (i.e. do less damage), and somehow this proves they don't need more mana. If they can do more damage (and not pull aggro) with more mana, then they need more mana. It's just a question of whether you can afford to give it to them.

You're saying they don't need more mana, they just want it so they can top the meters. Translated, they want it so they can do more damage - which happens to be their only job. Wanting to do your job better is not greedy!

Yes, of course if the healers are mana starved, you innervate the healers. If they aren't, you innervate the DPS - it's much better than not using the innervate at all. An arcane mage is much better placed than a fire mage to make use of that innervate. What is the problem here? If you get more damage out, and there's enough healing to keep everybody up, then that's a net plus! This is of course assuming your shadowpriests can't use the innervate, which is usually the better choice.

Would you really prefer to innervate the healers, have the fight take longer because DPS was lower, and have the healers end on half mana? It's just as much of a waste for a healer to finish the fight with mana remaining as it is for a DPS class to end with mana remaining. So you balance the requirements raid-wide, and throw spare mana at whoever can use it.

Apologies, it honestly wasn't clear to me it was a typo. It still makes little sense to say you should innervate a healer rather than DPS, because the healer's HPM is better than the DPSer's DPM. It all depends on whether you need more D or more H!

Yes, of course "as few healers as you can get away with" is the benchmark to aim for - but not all fights have the same requirements, and the vast majority of raid groups will not swap people in and out for one fight or another, but will just roll straight on with the same composition they started the raid with.

So yes, there are circumstances you want to innervate the DPS, and if for whatever reason
a shadow priest can't use the innervate, an arcane mage looks to me like your next best bet.

Oh yes definately. I also edited my previous post. We seem to both agree on the same thing.

And I agree with you both. Can we now form a doctrine of some sort?

Hehe, I am. I've settled for trying out a 41/17/3 build, since I can mooch Imp Scorch for fireball spam, and the support talents from 30ish points of arcane give me a nice stats boost.

And no, I can't top the damage meters on a regular basis, I can come damn close, up to equal with the top 3 or so, but never consistently and without fail.

None of the fire mages on my server have +hit, whatsoever. They're all +crit/+dmg, which is fine, but they don't comprehend the value of +hit. For me at least, I have 2pc Mana Etched in the bank for such occasions.

More mages need to learn themselves some edumacation -_-

(Note: Possible rotations: *ABx2/3 FBx2 repeat, or *ABx2/3 Scorchx4 <-- is this really ridiculously mana efficient? I've heard that said quite a few times before.)

Thank you for the heads up! such a force of habit. I am new to this forum and honestly, i am afraid to post on my real main as I am embarrassed how far behind I am of you guys and that is why I choose bittersweet :-0 cause that's how I feel reading here lol. So much great stuff, but I gotta gear up :-)

Manly is in EJ and can post however he wants.

i'd say a 13 minute morogrim fight is pretty damn slow - looks like we got more problems than i thought, seeing as our 33/28 mages sometimes like to spam scorch...................

I guess some can be fixed by raid class balance. Thanks for the info manly.

I am close to receiving the two piece T5 bonus. I am currently the typical 10/48/3 mage. I was wondering. I don't quite understand what stats I want. I know I want hit till 13%Do I need 13% hit for arcane? What I'm mainly asking is that for arcane what is more important dmg or crit. And for fire, the same question.

Look at your talents. You want 13% hit as 10/48/3 because the cap on hit from gear is 16% and Elemental Precision gives you 3%. For a deep arcane spec you will have 5/5 Arcane Focus which will give you 10% Arcane hit. Thus, you need only 6% hit on your gear.

For Arcane: Damage > Crit > Hit > Spell Haste

For Fire: Hit > Damage > Spell Haste > Crit

On a 13 min morogrim fight, spamming scorch is a-ok. In fact, they should use their highest DPM rotation available so that they can sustain their damage the longest. I am not sure about the numbers for a 33/28 build, but one thing is sure, they should cast at least 1 arcane blast every time the debuff is about to wear off (and I am unsure if they should be casting 2; someone would need to confirm this). In that case, the lightning capacitor is very very good trinket. But if your morogrim kill was 'fast' (8 min or less), then your mage would be fireballing in between their AB spam. In that case, the lightning capacitor is a poor choice.

Something else to note: Since they are really stretching out their max DPM, given the build, I am unsure how they should properly aoe. My first guess is that, assuming they have 3 points in master of elements, they should only be using flamestrike/blastwave (if avail.), since the spell somewhat shines in aoe mana-starved situations. They could also stretch it further by doing rank 1 arcane explosion, so that every crit from it would still proc the lightning capacitor (were speaking 100+ dpm here . That would be very very extreme, but not as bad as it sounds at first. In any case, you should post in the WWS thread in the main forums to work out some issues

As newly switched over to the Arcane spec ( 50/11 ) as a testing phase and doing alot of research on it I have to add a few things and this pertains directly to the raid enviorment.

First off, ive been a number of different specs over the years and take some time to fully test it in both a pvp and pve environment sometimes with up to a month before faithfully going back to Deepfire.

Deepfire without a question can put forth a very good amount of DPS and mana effeciency to go with it, however there have been times where i simply due to the fight mechanics not able to fully use my mana bar which in turn is unused damage and therefore wasted dps. I consider myself very well geared with large inventory of mage goodies and knowledgeable of the class and of the fights in BT/Mt.Hyjal we are pushing through at the moment and i could see where a arcane spec could fully shine in this regard and i see where some people have been mistaken about the arc spec as well. Switching from Deepfire to Deep arc isnt as simple as pressing a few buttons and using fire gear for it.. it wont work. Arc requires some subtle differences in gear and what you use to fully maximize it, what gear you have will determine your success with this spec. I think of any spec, Arc is probably the hardest to set up gear for and use successfully( spell rotation and mana management ).

Conditions:

-I wouldnt try this spec without the T5 2pc bonus, it might work but the effectiveness just isnt there, i would get that first before anything else DKP wise.
-Light Cap, This 1 item really makes the arc spec shine, esp with the amount of AOE which is involved in Mt.Hyjal this thing goes off like a 2yr old after eating a whole box of count chocula * again, crit is a big factor with this, raid buffed i think i was at 42% crit
-Spirit, one of the biggest obstacles of this spec is mana consumption and MP5 while casting plays a big part in the longer fights, try to get it without saccing any other stats.
-Spriest, this pretty much doesnt need a explanation, Arc spec really needs one to shine, YOU CAN get by without it and still beat Deepfire but you will struggle manawise and use everytrick you can to keep pumping out damage.
-Range, this is a major major issue with this spec and takes some getting used to. Im a oldschool pvpr with 150k lifetime Hk's and being limited to 30yards is freaking hard when your used to 41+. Raids themselves are a different case but still, you have to allow for some mobility and travel time to make up for the range differences.

Positives :

-DPS, the best Dps in the game for mages hands down. You can fully depending on the fight and gear control your DPS rate and flex as needed although this comes from experience and some practise, dont expect to switch and master this over 3 days, it takes a trial period and finding your own ' measure ' and then maximize it.. 2250 arc missle ticks ?5-6k AB spam hits or AP+Heroism+AB spam ? for even higher damage. This is a example of pushing things to the extreme but you can and will usually find the optimal ABx2, Amx1 or ABx3, AMx1,ScorX1 rotation work well as the norm in raid.
-Hit, Much easier to reach then deepfire, While i was able due to gear choices hit and actually go over the fire hit cap, i find the majority of the mage community is ignorant of exactly how important it is. This is 1 point where although i said Arc is harder to gear for has this one thing in its favor.
-AOE, Mt.Hyjal trash waves...hate it.. get it over with blow, it up fast. Massive aoe potential and if you have the Light cap, watch it spam on targets.
-40% aggro reduct, This allows u to go harder, longer. While Aggro issues arent usually a problem, they do happen sometimes, ill take the 40% over fires 10%.
-Upfront damage, a flaw with fire is just how much over a nights raid is damage just lost...ignite rolling after a mob is already dead.. poof gone.. wasted. While this is a case for all spells, arcane since its upfront doesnt suffer as much. I should also state, Am damage is immediate and rolling so to speak which on some fights is important, totems, Eggs etc.
-Slow, free spell, some claim its not worth it but as i use it more n more im finding just how useful it really is, Vash striders, kaels Phoenix's etc.. saving some lock because they pulled aggro on trash mobs in Hyjal waves..
-Imp CS, hyjal necros, Tk mobs, SSC mobs. Its a ladder spell and very helpful, doesnt need to be explained.
-Amp/Damp, will be utilizing this more in raids in attempts to soften raid damage, its a small thing but if it helps, why not use it.
-Mana, raid buffed holding at 13k mana which allows for more flexibility concerning spell management and burn phases( gnomish racial ). Didnt have to load up on int items at all, its just there as a result of previous good gear choices.
AP-3 min mage blah blah, but going thru Mt.Hyjal.. waves are on 3 min timers mostly.. that means.. YES.. Ap for each wave. Used responsibly this just adds up to more damage contributed to the raid. This isnt crucial to the success of the Arc spec, its just 1 more tool that lets it shine.
PVP- I said above im a regular Pvp'r and i was actually surprised how well despite the range issue this spec actually did in pvp. AB leaves no "tracer fire" and missles seemingly are non threatening till they start adding up and then people panick and by that time, its too late. Coupled with Ap as i also stated above, 1800-2250 missle ticks are absolutely deadly esp with Clearcasting procs and Light cap which can crit itself for up to 1450.

Im sure there are other points but its 4:21am and im tired. If a mage can meet or work with some of the conditions above and has the gear to test it fully for a time period and done their homework they will be surprised just how well this spec works. This will be interesting to see how over the next few weeks as i fully test the ins n outs on different encounters in BT etc and fully push this spec to the limits.