[Mage] How Can Arcane Damage Work? - Page 3

doogless · 06/17/07, 7:21 PM

My reading comprehension skills fail, ignore me.

Yes · 06/17/07, 7:56 PM

As far as raiding goes why would you opt for a more complex and weaker damage mechanic?
Even not taking into account the different gear requirements for arcane and fire based damage, there is nothing magical you can do about making your rotations better then fire.

Vhad · 06/17/07, 9:05 PM

Originally Posted by doogless

Since it looks like no one else caught this, the talent mentioned, Burning Soul, was changed to be 10% threat reduction a while ago.

I think you misunderstood, he said threat as arcane won't be a problem since it generates 30% less aggro then fire. 40% vs 10%.

doogless · 06/17/07, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Vhad

I think you misunderstood, he said threat as arcane won't be a problem since it generates 30% less aggro then fire. 40% vs 10%.

Haha, I'm an idiot. Sorry.

JonaWoW · 06/18/07, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jeru

Prismatic cloak is useless and the points are better spent elsewhere, max out your arcane focus so you can use more crit and +dmg gear.
Get the lightning capacitor or shiffar's nexus horn, also eye of quagmirran and idol of the silver crescent, your trinkets are rather lackluster.

I was trying to remember why I had points in Prismatic Cloak and I believe I put that spec together when I started tanking Krosh. I think we probably have that fight down to a science, though, so I could lose those points without causing my healers too much stress (I hope).

I do have the Lightning Capacitor, actually, but I think I fiddled with my trinkets before I logged out last. I was intending to use my Living Ruby Serpent and my Scryers Blood Gem for my main trinkets in Gruul's, though.

Originally Posted by Ultramagnetic

Sorry to interrupt but can I ask whether you leveled as arcane? From what I've read and heard, frost is the best for leveling. Arcane seems cooler to me. My mage is 48 now so it will be a while before I get arcane blast.

I actually did level frost, then went Arcane/Frost when we started raiding at 70 since my damage sucked. I was very happy with the increase in damage. I switched to Arcane/Fire later on after doing some math and realizing that Ice Block was just a crutch and I could do even better on damage.

I know I could stand to play better. In most boss fights I have quite a bit of a learning curve before I'm comfortable enough to really do my best. I'm not at that point yet with the Gruul's fight and I'm at a little bit of a loss as to how to improve, which is why I came here to get some input. I do have /stopcasting macros built in to both my Arcane Missiles hotkey and my Fireball hotkey. During the fights where I'm most comfortable, I kick ass, with little to no spell lag. But most of the boss fights I've been in don't require the endurance that Gruul does, and I came to realize that I need to change the way I do things a little bit to do better in that fight.

I guess I'm not really completely opposed to respeccing, and I do appreciate the input I've gotten in that regard so far. I guess I'm not so much bound to my specific spec as I am kindof hooked to being Arcane.... maybe it's just to be different... maybe I'm trying to prove something... maybe I just don't want to blow another 25 Badges to get the stupid Fire offhand

Originally Posted by Vontre

I would stress once again that arcane is not an easy spec to play or truly understand. You need to do research, testing and theorycraft to get to top damage as arcane. In short, you need to put in considerably more effort than just posting for help. Go read the things that Goggles linked to you, download my spreadsheet, and try to understand how mana converts to damage by adjusting arcane blast cycles.

I'm working on understanding it right now. I actually did download your spreadsheet but I think I need to spend a little more time with it... some of it was a little confusing to me, and I couldn't find Arcane Blast in the options for the cycle builder. Is there a new version of the spreadsheet?

Finally, I've seen a few people comment that my gear isn't all that great. Keep in mind that my guild only just completed Karazhan and has downed Gruul once - I'm working on it! But I still don't think 12 epic items is too shabby considering where we are in raid progression. I'm over 1000 +damage unbuffed, have around 25% crit and 8% hit (which is as much as I need for my current spec). I forget what spirit is for... I thought only priests liked that stat

I also have about two bags worth of gear that I carry around with me at all times. I have a separate set of gear that maxes my crit for raid trash, I have the set that's in my current armory profile that maxes out my hit, I have a stamina set that's specifically for tanking Krosh, and a Curator set that's got arcane resistance, plus a whole slew of trinkets that get swapped out on the fly (including the Lightning Capacitor, which is my favorite trinket thus far). I would love to be able to streamline this a little bit, and I think I'm getting close... I just have a problem throwing stuff away

Teenee · 06/18/07, 2:30 AM

Arcane is a great Heroic/Kara/Trash spec, since most fights in there are very short, and you can get away with using AB almost all the time, esp on trash. You can't really express surprise that your damage is so good in Kara (which has loads of trash) while so poor in Gruul (which has minimal trash).

However Arcane Missiles will forever feel like a bastard child to me.

- Mana paid up front
- Poor crits
- Poor range
- Immobilizing
- No mage supplied debuff. CoS/Misery is all what you really get
- Horribly expensive. DPM is through the floor.

Arcane has alot of interactive options. The famed "switch to AM on CC" is one, the whole AB debuff is another. But the problem I see with that is that it requires yet more mental attention. Decent DPS as a firemage is not rocket science. And this enables you to really focus on other aspects of the fights (like staying alive). I also feel Arcane is too reliant on cooldowns for doing solid damage.

JonaWoW · 06/18/07, 2:51 AM

I'm looking at other spec options with arcane still being the main school. I noticed one of the builds someone linked includes two points in Imp. Counterspell. With that particular build, the two points are pretty necessary to reach the subsequent tiers in the tree - or else you'd have to put a couple points into Magic Absorption or Imp. AM (or Wand Specialization, god forbid).

The main reason I've avoided Imp. CS in the past is because it's my understanding that silencing is bad in the Shade of Aran fight (you don't want to lock out all schools or he flips out and we wipe... we've never tested this, however). I couldn't help but wonder if that's even an issue in that fight. I don't really use CS all that often, so those points could go anywhere (however I do have it on my hotbar macroed with /stopcasting so I can do it on the fly, need be). But we're not quite done with Karazhan so if silencing is an issue in that fight I don't want to put points in that talent just yet.

Also, I've noticed that almost none of the Arcane/Fire spec suggestions include points in Elemental Precision. I'm guessing this just means people are going crazy with +hit gear instead? (I've seen several armory profiles for mages that support this assumption, I just want confirmation, I guess.)

Here's a spec I worked out, taking into account several of the comments others have posted regarding which fire talents would optimize my current spec a little better for raiding. I would appreciate any feedback you folks have to offer.

43/18/0 Arcane Spec

Athinira · 06/18/07, 2:58 AM

Originally Posted by JonaWoW

The main reason I've avoided Imp. CS in the past is because it's my understanding that silencing is bad in the Shade of Aran fight (you don't want to lock out all schools or he flips out and we wipe... we've never tested this, however). I couldn't help but wonder if that's even an issue in that fight. I don't really use CS all that often, so those points could go anywhere (however I do have it on my hotbar macroed with /stopcasting so I can do it on the fly, need be). But we're not quite done with Karazhan so if silencing is an issue in that fight I don't want to put points in that talent just yet.

All boss mobs and raid mobs are immune to Silence effects (though not interrupts) so there is no reason to not take Improved Counterspell.

Northerner · 06/18/07, 2:59 AM

I guess to me at least, a lot of it still comes down to clearcasting mechanics. If the aura popped on casting, reactively using it would make some sense. As it stands though you are at an absolute minimum in the hole latency times two + reaction time and that's simply not acceptable to me.

I've theorycrafted a lot on my own time about deep arcane builds and arc/fire builds though and as much as I'd like to say I have a solution, I simply do not. Other than obviating Immune targets or producing burst damage on demand, I just don't see a need for the possibilities and across the board I am getting better results with cookie-cutter. It's a lot more work (or fun, depending on how you see it) for frankly lessened results in my opinion.

Jeru · 06/18/07, 4:33 AM

Maybe some hard arcane dps numbers would be nice, instead of anecdotal experience. I'll start by posting this, which should prove that arcane damage actually does work (this is from our first gruul kill, he went down at 15 growths):

I was in a group with a moonkin (who shifted out to heal after about 50%), two fire mages, and a draenei elemental shaman, which means i had +3 hit/crit from totem of wrath, +101 dmg from wrath of air, +5 crit from moonkin aura, and +1hit from the draenei racial. No shadow priest in my group, but in the raid. Both CoS and CoE warlocks had malediction. In total i had about 1200 +dmg, 36% crit at peak times (with moonkin aura) and I was hit capped (which is easy as arcane).

I had the usual problems with arcane that other people described in this thread. Running back in after ground slam, limited range, staying rooted which made cave in and reverbation a pain in the butt, outside effects messing up spell rotations. But in the end, the insane burst of lucky clearcast+metagem procs coupled with AP x 2, and the lightning capacitor made up for it. I edged out two 10/48/3 mages by quite a bit, and their gear is about the same level. I had no major mana problems.

Goggles · 06/18/07, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by Jeru

Maybe some hard arcane dps numbers would be nice, instead of anecdotal experience. I'll start by posting this, which should prove that arcane damage actually does work (this is from our first gruul kill, he went down at 15 growths):

...

Good numbers. I'm a little surprised you didn't have mana problems though.

I've tried a proper arcane build for Magtheridon once. I had a shadow priest, an elemental shaman and JoW was kept up for at least part of the fight (5.5k mana back from it). The fight last 11-12 minutes. On Magtheridon himself I used ABx2 + AM and let latency and a small pause make up the gap (I didn't use scorch because I was draining mana fast enough). I was a bit more loose on the adds and used more Arcane Blasts to get them down faster. I used 4 super mana pots and 3 mana gems. I was on cube clicking duty (my cube was right next to Magtheridon so no range issues). I was completely OOM at 4%. I did ~485k damage. For reference I did over 100k more damage the next week in the same time with 10/48/3 and had no mana issues at all despite not using a single super mana potion. Gear wise the only changes I made were to swap heroic fire offhand for Magtheridon's offhand and either Nelth's Tear or Icon for Lightning Capacitor (can't remember whether I was hit capped with or without Tear). I wasn't using stopcasting on either kill although I've been playing about with it recently and will almost certainly start using it properly soon (getting out of the habit of spamming buttons will be tough though). Obviously I am a lot more practised with fire than arcane but even with familiarity I can't see it making up the gap especially on the mana side of things (admittedly my mana regen is pretty horrible even using a mageblood potion and buff food).

Jeru · 06/18/07, 5:47 AM

At this fight I had no JoW and shadowpriest, with both I could last longer. Still, mana is obviously an issue, but you can work around it. I haven't really done any math with mana regen, but I think arcane mana regen is not something to scoff at. I'm not sure how much spirit I have raid buffed, but it should be about 375. Arcane meditation and mage armor are 45% regen while inside the five second rule, and the trick is that you exit the five second rule when using arcane missiles, so you get one full tick of regen then. I'm not sure how the regen actually works, but I believe one tick of regen in the game is two seconds. That means when you cast a spell, proc clearcasting, and use arcane missiles, you get two ticks of full regen before you land your next spell. If you cast arcane missiles and proc clearcasting with this very cast, you get three or more full ticks before you land the next spell. The fact that AM pays there mana cost up front and AB on hit compliments this well. Because AM has its mana cost paid upfront, casting AM and proccing clearcasting with this very cast means that the buff will not be consumed until you cast the next spell (ideally another volley of AMs), so the clearcasting buff grants you +30% crit for BOTH volleys, both the one that procced it and the one that consumes it.
With lucky AM+Clearcast procs, I watched my mana actually shoot up on numerous occasions. Not to mention these very procs not only mean mana efficiency but also burst, especially with the LC. The synergy between mana regen, arcane missiles and clearcasting is what makes arcane spec strong imo, but it is also it's weakness, since you are relying heavily on a 10% proc. A mage set bonus that increases the clearcasting proc rate would be pretty imba...

I have to pay more attention to my regen addon next time so I can see how much I actually got back.

Voltan · 06/18/07, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Athinira

All boss mobs and raid mobs are immune to Silence effects (though not interrupts) so there is no reason to not take Improved Counterspell.

Bearing this in mind, surely there is no reason TO take Improved Counterspell?

Voltan · 06/18/07, 6:19 AM

Originally Posted by Jeru

Maybe some hard arcane dps numbers would be nice, instead of anecdotal experience. I'll start by posting this, which should prove that arcane damage actually does work (this is from our first gruul kill, he went down at 15 growths):

I was in a group with a moonkin (who shifted out to heal after about 50%), two fire mages, and a draenei elemental shaman, which means i had +3 hit/crit from totem of wrath, +101 dmg from wrath of air, +5 crit from moonkin aura, and +1hit from the draenei racial. No shadow priest in my group, but in the raid. Both CoS and CoE warlocks had malediction. In total i had about 1200 +dmg, 36% crit at peak times (with moonkin aura) and I was hit capped (which is easy as arcane).

I had the usual problems with arcane that other people described in this thread. Running back in after ground slam, limited range, staying rooted which made cave in and reverbation a pain in the butt, outside effects messing up spell rotations. But in the end, the insane burst of lucky clearcast+metagem procs coupled with AP x 2, and the lightning capacitor made up for it. I edged out two 10/48/3 mages by quite a bit, and their gear is about the same level. I had no major mana problems.

Ok, I noticed the damage that you posted, and, as good as it may be, your average fireball damage did a lot more than your AM and AB. Surely this is proof that chaincasting fireballs, even with your current spec would improve the damage you could do? One question about your fellow mages with like level gear, if they were using fireball spam and are 10/48/3 spec, I am a little confused as to how they didn't out-damage you?

Kavan · 06/18/07, 6:21 AM

I believe ignoring mana regen when switching from fire to arcane is the most common mistake. Most spreadsheets just show you the values for a fixed gear set, most commonly a fire mage will enter his gear, change spec to arcane and decide that switching to arcane is bad. Yes raiding as arcane in fire gear is bad.

Besides different +to hit ceiling the next most important thing for arcane is that more mana means more damage. That means spreading item value among more stats gets you more bang for your buck. You actually can make meaningfull damage increase from both int, spi, mp5, damage and crit as arcane mage.

For example if I enter my gear into Vontre's spreadsheet I get the highest damage if I'm using arcane build. Raid buffed I'm usually running with ~860 int, 340 spi, 1100 damage, 250 crit rating. Now I'm not saying that arcane is better than fire. All I'm saying is that when you're making comparisons gear plays a very big role.