[Mage] How Can Arcane Damage Work? - Page 38

Copernicus · 08/16/07, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by manly

I just want to make this clear, since I've had quite a few questions about this while in WOW or in IRC. The gearing decisions I proposed were headed towards a single way - that is - optimize upon [Ashtongue Talisman of Insight]. I personally do not believe that wearing max spell haste with ashtongue/TLC/mystical and AM spamming is the one way to go. However, the fact remains that the more you stack spell haste, the more all of your procs 'multiply' their effects across themselves. From a pure theorycraft perspective, it is what makes the most sense to gear towards, ignoring totally alternative gear choices.

One thing I learned in other games, is that sometimes developers make an item and don't think through their implications on the game. Sometimes an effect is overwhelmingly too good, and should you be able to abuse it, it becomes crazy. This was most apparent in MTG, for those unfortunate enough to have played competitively that game using the 'type 1' format. I personally believe that, if [Ashtongue Talisman of Insight] proc can be kept up 100% of the time, it is arguably the best trinket in game. Furthermore, [Wrath of Cenarius] might be clunky at best, but the same principle applies -- if you can keep it up 100% of the time, its clearly the best ring in the game (just after exalted hyjal that is). TLC with AM spam is crazy crazy good. I am not joking when I say it was giving me a good 8-9% of my total DPS.

The broken mechanic is in Arcane Missiles. Outside of that spell and Bloodlust/Heroism, there's no reliable way to get a spell hit faster than every 1.5 seconds. Spell haste and the focus metagem are enablers, but that's because of the nature of Arcane Missiles working with spell haste and allowing proc chances at a much faster rate than the on-proc items were designed for.

As far as Wrath of Cenarius, looking at wowhead it should have slightly over 50% uptime with pure Arcane Missiles spam (ignoring the 1% resist rate). 5% proc rate with no hidden cooldown and lasts for 10 seconds. Which would make it the second best ring in an AM spam build, aside from the Exalted Mt. Hyjal ring.

---

I've got a quick question for Arcane Potency and Arcane Missiles. Looking at my character sheet last night, it seemed that I was getting the bonus to my crit rate WHILE the clearcasting buff was on me and I was channeling Arcane Missiles. In other words, my Arcane Missiles would proc a clearcast, so while it was being cast I'd be getting the boost. Is this accurate, or just a buggy character sheet?

Aldric · 08/16/07, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Copernicus

I've got a quick question for Arcane Potency and Arcane Missiles. Looking at my character sheet last night, it seemed that I was getting the bonus to my crit rate WHILE the clearcasting buff was on me and I was channeling Arcane Missiles. In other words, my Arcane Missiles would proc a clearcast, so while it was being cast I'd be getting the boost. Is this accurate, or just a buggy character sheet?

Nope that's how it works, you get the crit buff while the clearcast buff is up, so for a proc on the start of a AM you can get the crit buff, and then get it again on any regular cast after that, hence the "double dip" from AM.

Kimoshi · 08/16/07, 9:00 PM

Posted this a few pages back, but it seemed to get largely ignored.

I have noticed that, if you cast Arcane Blast on clearcast, then stop the cast early enough for Arcane Missiles, it'll still be free and get the additional crit, but Arcane Missiles will ALSO get the crit bonus.

manly · 08/17/07, 3:14 AM

Originally Posted by Aldric

Nope that's how it works, you get the crit buff while the clearcast buff is up, so for a proc on the start of a AM you can get the crit buff, and then get it again on any regular cast after that, hence the "double dip" from AM.

Hmm, however, it is important to note that, as far as I know, spell damage/crit/resist/etc. is determined when the spell is done casting, not when it lands. In other words, if you cast frostbolt to a frozen target (having shatter), then fireblast before your frostbolt lands, both your frostbolt and fireblast will benefit from shatter.

I understand that you mean it does have the unintended side benefit in the case where:

1- /cast AM
1.1- (clearcast proc)
2- 1st AM ticks (+30% ? - I assume here that it doesn't get +30% because it was casted before you got the clearcast)
3- 2nd AM ticks (+30% crit possibly, assuming you get clearcast within the first second)
4- 3rd AM ticks (+30% crit)
5- 4th AM ticks (+30% crit)
6- 5th AM ticks (+30% crit)
7- /cast AM (clearcast consumed)
8- all AM ticks get arcane potency

I also seemed to notice that your TLC lightning bolts ALSO get the +30% crit, even if, oddly, you get the TLC proc at step #8 (ie: after clearcast was consumed).

I think the real question mark is, 'did I get the step #2 and 3# correctly'?. Or is there yet another exception to AM and clearcast? Is it possible that your FIRST AM tick (step #2) also get +30% crit ? This would assume that AM behaves differently from other spells and the damage would be calculated upon landing rather than when its done casting the bolt.

Originally Posted by Kimoshi

Posted this a few pages back, but it seemed to get largely ignored.

I have noticed that, if you cast Arcane Blast on clearcast, then stop the cast early enough for Arcane Missiles, it'll still be free and get the additional crit, but Arcane Missiles will ALSO get the crit bonus.

This is highly confusing.

1- /cast AB
2- (clearcast proc)
3- begin /cast AB
3.1- stop AB mid-cast to take advantage of clearcast
4- /cast AM

Did I understand this correctly? If yes, I don't see wheres there problem. All your AM ticks should get +30% crit.

manly · 08/17/07, 3:33 AM

Originally Posted by Aldric

I think it's worth pointing out Manly that stacking spell haste isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be because the Ashtongue trinket should be additive with any spell haste gear that you might have.

This means that in your example the final cast time should be 1.603s instead of the 1.6048. Extremely minor at this point. However, say you have something like 200 haste rating (pretty much fully stacked). This will be 345 haste rating after Ashtongue (16.197%) instead of the multiplicative 15.64%.

Hmmmm. I understand what you mean. I had not thought of it this way. However, to be quite frank, I think neither of us know for a fact whether or not spell haste ratings are additive or multiplicative. I assumed it was multiplicative, because thats how bloodlust/focus behave together. Then from that, I concluded that every piece of gear would multiply its spellhaste% to the current spell haste that you have. I understand that what you are saying is that all the spell haste ratings are added up together on your character, and multiplied at the end of your cast. I doubt anyone knows the answer to this question, but should anyone know, I would be glad to see evidence of it.

I suppose it could be tested with [Mind Quickening Gem] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Insight]. I might try it out at a later time should I get no answer.

---------------------------------

Also, on a totally different note. I call BS on AM proccing 6 times focus. If I were a blizzard programmer, I'm pretty sure the code that was making focus proc upon a spellcast would be gone / moved unto AM ticks.

Fortunately, this is easy to test, should anyone be up for the challenge. Go on the PTR, cast a bunch of AM, but always cancel them before your first bolt goes off. If focus never procs, that means you can get 5 procs max per AM rather than 6.

Roywyn · 08/17/07, 5:39 AM

New PTR patch, new fun!
Clearcasting is back, and it procs normally, not on every wave.

Originally Posted by manly

Also, on a totally different note. I call BS on AM proccing 6 times focus. If I were a blizzard programmer, I'm pretty sure the code that was making focus proc upon a spellcast would be gone / moved unto AM ticks.

Fortunately, this is easy to test, should anyone be up for the challenge. Go on the PTR, cast a bunch of AM, but always cancel them before your first bolt goes off. If focus never procs, that means you can get 5 procs max per AM rather than 6.

Tried it, worked on the fifth try. I pressed my AM button and jumped right afterwards, and used [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] to check that I really cast AM (and of course did no damage).
I got a focus proc there twice, 5th and 8th try.
Side note: Casting AM doesn't get you in combat either, casting the first damage volley does.

Arcane Missiles (rank 3 and up) consists of 6 casts:
1 cast at the start that consumes the mana and initiates the channeling.
5 casts afterwards that do the damage.

Only the cast at the start can proc clearcasting. All casts can proc Focus, DM:Crusade, Lesser Spell Blasting (Spellstrike proc, tested), I don't have any more proc things to test.

WWS from the latest PTR patch:
Tinkie - WWS
Clearcasting is back to normal, Focus is still proccing like mad.

Rank 1 of Arcane Missiles is called "Arcane Missile" (you shoot only one), you see I spammed rank1 and used max rank AM on focus and clearcasts. At some point CoS was up from a nearby warlock.
I had my riding crop equipped, didn't care much about damage since latency still makes reactive casting impossible. If I had a TLC, that would have been another 18% damage.
I think max rank AM with raid buffs, shadow priest and chain potting should be sustainable, but that's just gut feeling.

Ambico · 08/17/07, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by ebbv

I tried 40/0/21 in anticipation of Al'ar this past week. Including last night's SSC run of the first 4 bosses.

I found myself struggling to keep neck and neck with our 10/48/3 Mages who have similar gear to mine, and whom as 10/48/3 I'm normally ahead of. Even when I was doing full-out Arcane Blast spam I was barely keeping even with Fireball spam.

I apologize for not having WWS parses available, when I get 2 piece T5 and give it another go I will make sure to do so.

I was more than a little disappointed with this, and am now planning to try out deep frost for Al'ar instead of Arcane/Frost.

edit:

I should add that part of my poor performance was my unwillingness to re-replace my Veiled Noble Topaz with Potent. So I had a lot more hit than Arcane really needs. All the same, I was disappointed that Arcane Blast spam didn't blow Fireball spam out of the water.

Ok...why in heavens name would u spam arcane blast and have that much talents in frost. My mage is specced 40/0/21 and im pretty much always up there on dps. doin gruul or another boss w all my buffs every crit i get w/ a frostbolt = 4.5k+, reaching a high of 6.1k w/ arcane power. having a shadow priest does help but unfortunately attendance issues doesnt allow that at times.

Being deep arcane doesnt mean that u have to use arcane spells...some people spec deep arcane to utilize some of its other talents such as arcane power, pom (instant pyro or even frostbolt in my case every 3 mins when a boss usually lasts longer doesnt sound too bad), the arcane mind and mind mastery combo, clearcasting, etc.

Full frost, yes, isnt too great for raid dps but i dont know why people keep shittin on the frost tree basically ignorin the fact that it exists. 2.5 second cast on frostbolts vs 3 second cast on a fireball, not to mention the fact that fire mages have to keep scorch stacked in order to fully be efficient (pyro blasts shouldnt even be a discussion in raids unless u have pom for it, either way i think its as waste of a talent). Im not sayin that this spec is better than the 10/48/3 spec the many arrogant mages have proposed, im just sayin that the 40/0/21 spec could be just as useful (if not better) if used correctly.

I have +1092 frost dmg unbuffed and w/o a couple enchants or some other gear that i want pre scc. Buffed its like +1350 and it goes way higher than that w/ arcane power and trinkets. I think it might be the best raid spec if u want to enter into the frost tree. Check my tree out on armory for the frost talent. (Ambico -- Arthas Alliance)

Dont sh*t on this spec w/o havin tried it or givin an open mind about it. After all u wont really know what's best if u dont try everything out. I've never really seen any mage w/ my same spec which is quite odd, but understandable seeing as to how everybody has this misconception that fire is automatically best. KEEP AN OPEN MIND =b.

Remitroll · 08/17/07, 9:21 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Arcane Missiles (rank 3 and up) consists of 6 casts:
1 cast at the start that consumes the mana and initiates the channeling.
5 casts afterwards that do the damage.

Only the cast at the start can proc clearcasting. All casts can proc Focus, DM:Crusade, Lesser Spell Blasting (Spellstrike proc, tested), I don't have any more proc things to test.

Hmm, so to model that idea on something like [Robe of the Elder Scribes] assuming it is applied as per the Spellstrike proc...

Chance to proc per AM channel ~26%, or 1 in 4 channels. Given that the duration is 2 channels, in spamming AM you would expect the proc to be in effect 50% of the time. Giving an averaged +DMG from the proc of 65. Which would only be increased by haste procs.

Does that seem right or is my maths totally off?

Aldric · 08/17/07, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

New PTR patch, new fun!
Clearcasting is back, and it procs normally, not on every wave.

This is good news, now I'll be able to do some testing on what Manly and I were chatting about a few posts up with where a clearcasting on AM truely has the potency applied as it could have some pretty significant impacts on adaptive rotations.

As to how to test proc'd haste ratings being additive or multiplicative I'm at a loss. Manly's example of Ashtongue/MQG is probably the best option. Beyond that any sort of combat log parsing would be pointless as human error and lag would be hugely more significant than the actual differences in cast time. I suppose we would be reduced to checking tooltips on portal spells when you have a curse of tongues up, and who actually wants to rig up all those conditions. (not I)

I think the additive vs multiplicative haste rating is mostly a theorycrafting point in any case. We're talking differences of .6% cast time at extreme gear levels. Hardly significant in game, and only a mild curiosity in the theorycrafting world.

So in summary: I'll work on clearcasting AP effects on AM tonight, additive vs multiplicative for haste procs we can probably leave by the wayside.

tedv · 08/17/07, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Aldric

As to how to test proc'd haste ratings being additive or multiplicative I'm at a loss. Manly's example of Ashtongue/MQG is probably the best option. Beyond that any sort of combat log parsing would be pointless as human error and lag would be hugely more significant than the actual differences in cast time. I suppose we would be reduced to checking tooltips on portal spells when you have a curse of tongues up, and who actually wants to rig up all those conditions. (not I)

My intuition says that haste rating works like all other rating-- the game gets one sum on your rating and then determines one value for how much faster you cast. So that would imply additive.

The reason haste rating and bloodlust are multiplicative is that lust doesn't give haste rating. It gives a raw 30% haste regardless of the level of the target. (If it gave rating such that it was 30% at level 70, then giving bloodlust to a level 10 character would have rather obscene results.) It's also likely the focus proc gives haste percent, not haste rating, for the same reason. If it gave 1040 rating, that would be faster than 200% for people below level 70.

Endage · 08/17/07, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ambico

Ok...why in heavens name would u spam arcane blast and have that much talents in frost. My mage is specced 40/0/21 and im pretty much always up there on dps. doin gruul or another boss w all my buffs every crit i get w/ a frostbolt = 4.5k+, reaching a high of 6.1k w/ arcane power. having a shadow priest does help but unfortunately attendance issues doesnt allow that at times.

Being deep arcane doesnt mean that u have to use arcane spells...some people spec deep arcane to utilize some of its other talents such as arcane power, pom (instant pyro or even frostbolt in my case every 3 mins when a boss usually lasts longer doesnt sound too bad), the arcane mind and mind mastery combo, clearcasting, etc.

Full frost, yes, isnt too great for raid dps but i dont know why people keep shittin on the frost tree basically ignorin the fact that it exists. 2.5 second cast on frostbolts vs 3 second cast on a fireball, not to mention the fact that fire mages have to keep scorch stacked in order to fully be efficient (pyro blasts shouldnt even be a discussion in raids unless u have pom for it, either way i think its as waste of a talent). Im not sayin that this spec is better than the 10/48/3 spec the many arrogant mages have proposed, im just sayin that the 40/0/21 spec could be just as useful (if not better) if used correctly.

I have +1092 frost dmg unbuffed and w/o a couple enchants or some other gear that i want pre scc. Buffed its like +1350 and it goes way higher than that w/ arcane power and trinkets. I think it might be the best raid spec if u want to enter into the frost tree. Check my tree out on armory for the frost talent. (Ambico -- Arthas Alliance)

Dont sh*t on this spec w/o havin tried it or givin an open mind about it. After all u wont really know what's best if u dont try everything out. I've never really seen any mage w/ my same spec which is quite odd, but understandable seeing as to how everybody has this misconception that fire is automatically best. KEEP AN OPEN MIND =b.

Arcane Blast spam in a 40/0/21 build is used as mana dump. With 40 points in arcane it does more DPS than Frostbolt, but it's only effective as a mana dump.

Saying firemages depend on Imp. Scorch being up isn't a really good argument, since 40/0/21 only works with Winter's Chill being up which is harder to keep up than Imp. Scorch on fights where you have to stop casting on a target. So basicly, 40/0/21 only works with a full frostmage who unlike you say, still do nice DPS, comparable with a 40/0/21 specced mage.

All the calculations have been done, everything has been tried, 40/0/21 isn't the best raid spec by far. You may like it a lot, but that doesn't make it the best.

Stein · 08/17/07, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Endage

everything has been tried

I don't think anyone has tried wearing enough passive spell haste to make 3xAB 3xFrostbolt work. It still won't be #1, but it sure would help that build.

Jayde · 08/17/07, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Remitroll

Hmm, so to model that idea on something like [Robe of the Elder Scribes] assuming it is applied as per the Spellstrike proc...

Chance to proc per AM channel ~26%, or 1 in 4 channels. Given that the duration is 2 channels, in spamming AM you would expect the proc to be in effect 50% of the time. Giving an averaged +DMG from the proc of 65. Which would only be increased by haste procs.

Does that seem right or is my maths totally off?

I have that in my bank and copied my character to PTR last evening. I can test when I get home, if nobody else beats me to it.

If it can, as people noted, possibly proc 6 times (1 from initial, and 1 from each of the 5 bolts) in a single AM, there "should" be around a 26.5% chance to proc it on each AM as you stated. That means that if it procs, you will have 12 opportunities to refresh it in the 10 seconds duration which is around a 46% chance.

If you were focus hasted, of course, you would have 24 opportunities in the best-case, giving a 71% chance to refresh it before it wore out again. In theory, it could make the Robe somewhat powerful, especially for those without higher-end gear alternatives/set bonuses.

(Although, even if one were to add it with the passive and give it ~125 +dmg in total based on 70% uptime, you're still comparing to the Spellfire Robe which is 90 passive with a setbonus worth ~35 dmg. I doubt it would be worth swapping if you're a Tailor, even if you could keep it up a good deal of the time.)

Vontre · 08/17/07, 12:23 PM

I really don't understand why Arcane Missiles still costs a billionty mana to cast. All paid upfront. Complete and utter reliance on judgement of wisdom is cool too. Tell you what, we're gonna give you this nuke but you won't be able to use it unless the stars all line up in a pattern as found on ancient scrolls from the mesopotamia.

Pardon my rant but this spell has been junk since 1.0 and I really have no idea why it hasn't been fixed yet. Mystical Skyfire could be the answer, but as was pointed out earlier that's an itemization crutch that is only seriously available at or close to max level.

I could play armchair game designer all day but I'll spare this forum. I've already modeled the new arcane missile proc rates on my spreadsheet (update coming soon!) and suffice it to say Mystical Skyfire is the night and day difference for arcane missiles. You should get some ridiculous dps (not TOO ridiculous) and if you do ABx1 AMx2 with a shadow priest and JoW then yes, you can sustain it.

What's interesting is that for every other proc effect, my spreadsheet was already considering every tick of AM to cause a proc (Quag's Eye, Nexus Horn, Mag's Eye etc). For most trinkets this hasn't made a huge impact, since most are passive stats + decently powerful proc, instead of just being uber proc and no stats like Lightning Capacitor.

Remitroll · 08/17/07, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jayde

If it can, as people noted, possibly proc 6 times (1 from initial, and 1 from each of the 5 bolts) in a single AM, there "should" be around a 26.5% chance to proc it on each AM as you stated. That means that if it procs, you will have 12 opportunities to refresh it in the 10 seconds duration which is around a 46% chance.

If you were focus hasted, of course, you would have 24 opportunities in the best-case, giving a 71% chance to refresh it before it wore out again. In theory, it could make the Robe somewhat powerful, especially for those without higher-end gear alternatives/set bonuses.

(Although, even if one were to add it with the passive and give it ~125 +dmg in total based on 70% uptime, you're still comparing to the Spellfire Robe which is 90 passive with a setbonus worth ~35 dmg. I doubt it would be worth swapping if you're a Tailor, even if you could keep it up a good deal of the time.)

Yeah, that' kinda what I'm looking to answer. ATM I'm Arcane with Full Spellstrike/Spellfire. My guild has downed VR and working on Karathress, so access to 2*T5 is close (Shoulder/Leg) and looking at T4 head (for the meta) until we get to Vash (still a ways off). Really it was whether the new AM would warrant breaking Spellfire at my level of progression

Logun · 08/17/07, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Remitroll

Yeah, that' kinda what I'm looking to answer. ATM I'm Arcane with Full Spellstrike/Spellfire. My guild has downed VR and working on Karathress, so access to 2*T5 is close (Shoulder/Leg) and looking at T4 head (for the meta) until we get to Vash (still a ways off). Really it was whether the new AM would warrant breaking Spellfire at my level of progression

This is also my concern. I have Spellfire, Spellstrike, and T5 shoulders. I've passed on the Elder Robes and T4 Helm many times in the past. I'm now looking to acquire both until we get Vash down. I really hate tailoring and I hope the Elder Robes will be at least semi-equal to Spellfire. I would love to be able to drop tailoring if this is the case.

Kimoshi · 08/17/07, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by manly

This is highly confusing.

1- /cast AB
2- (clearcast proc)
3- begin /cast AB
3.1- stop AB mid-cast to take advantage of clearcast
4- /cast AM

Did I understand this correctly? If yes, I don't see wheres there problem. All your AM ticks should get +30% crit.

0:00- Begin casting Arcane Blast
0:02.5- AB goes off, clearcasting procs, you immediately begin casting the next AB.
0:04.7- You /stopcasting AM
0:04.8- AB goes off with the free cast and crit bonus
0:04.8- AM goes off for full cost, but gets the crit bonus from clearcasting.

That's pretty much it. Just never saw it mentioned in the thread, so wasn't sure if people where aware of it.

Edit- Actually, think you understoof-but you let the first AB go off, so it's free and it gets the crit bonus, BUT you do /stopcasting, /cast arcane missiles as you normally would as if it was the next spell in your rotation. Due to the lag, AM will still cost mana, BUT it will get the crit bonus from clearcasting since you told the server you where going to cast AM before AB actually consumed the debuff.

manly · 08/17/07, 5:25 PM

That not what I had understood. I had assumed you meant your 2nd AB did not go through. You're saying that you get both a free AB (possibly with +30% crit) AND a free AM (possibly with +30% crit) out of one clearcast.

I'll give it a shot tonight.

Kimoshi · 08/17/07, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by manly

That not what I had understood. I had assumed you meant your 2nd AB did not go through. You're saying that you get both a free AB (possibly with +30% crit) AND a free AM (possibly with +30% crit) out of one clearcast.

I'll give it a shot tonight.

Nonono; the AB is free and gets the crit bonus, but the AM only gets the crit bonus.

manly · 08/17/07, 6:21 PM

ok, in other words:
/cast AB
-> clearcast proc
/cast AB
-> AB costs 0 mana, and gets +30% crit
/stopcasting /cast AM
-> AM costs full mana, but gets +30% crit, presumably because of stopcasting

still very interesting, and not too hard to test.

Jayde · 08/17/07, 7:14 PM

Logged on to PTR this evening and confirmed that [Robe of the Elder Scribes] can proc off any of the bolts. So, those without tailoring can commence the theorycrafting on this one, I suppose.

(On the negative side, I realized I must have gotten rid of the Mauradon dagger some time ago... Kinda wanted to test what the mana regen on a lower-ranged AM volley would be with it. Ah well. Maybe someone else out there?)

Kimoshi · 08/17/07, 7:39 PM

Originally Posted by manly

ok, in other words:
/cast AB
-> clearcast proc
/cast AB
-> AB costs 0 mana, and gets +30% crit
/stopcasting /cast AM
-> AM costs full mana, but gets +30% crit, presumably because of stopcasting

still very interesting, and not too hard to test.

That's what it seems from what I have seen so far.

Soul · 08/17/07, 7:40 PM

Doesn't the [Robe of the Elder Scribes] have a 50 second cooldown or some obscene number like that? I find that it's a nice stat robe, but the 5% proc rate and cooldown really are a downer.

Jayde · 08/17/07, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by Soul

Doesn't the [Robe of the Elder Scribes] have a 50 second cooldown or some obscene number like that? I find that it's a nice stat robe, but the 5% proc rate and cooldown really are a downer.

Didn't think to test this, since I was just looking for mid-volley procs and was doing it a bit slow to make sure it didn't trigger on the initial one.

However, after going back to test I didn't observe any procs sooner than 50 seconds apart, after firing low-rank volleys for about 10 minutes.

So, seems this one is basically useless for this (and every other?) purpose. Shame.

Logun · 08/17/07, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jayde

Didn't think to test this, since I was just looking for mid-volley procs and was doing it a bit slow to make sure it didn't trigger on the initial one.

However, after going back to test I didn't observe any procs sooner than 50 seconds apart, after firing low-rank volleys for about 10 minutes.

So, seems this one is basically useless for this (and every other?) purpose. Shame.

Can anyone confirm a 50 second internal CD? This would really dash my hopes.