Finally finished getting the simulator to model the new AM mechanics......

Equipped an Arcane Mage with MSD,/Ashtongue/WrathOfCenarius/TLC with 400 crit rating.

I slowly replaced crit rating for haste rating, point for point...... and the dps increased.

Point for point, +haste was more valuable than +crit (for pure dps, not dpm) even with TLC equipped.

I could get frequency of AM casts below 4sec, but it really took a ton of passive haste.

Any particular experiments folks would like to see that can't be easily reproduced on the PTR?

Sorry, MSD?

This is all starting to sound great for dps, but i'm particularly worried about mana sustainability in raids. I always have 1 shadow priest, but almost never get JoW and an elemental shaman. The one bad thing about haste effects is that it improves DPS at the cost of DPM, so i'd really like to find the sweet value of passive haste rating that maximises your DPS without making you OOM in 3 minutes. (assume 1 spriest + chain super mana pots + mana gems)

For sustained dps on a 8-10 minute boss fight, will stacking 153 haste rating + focus gem + ashtongue trinket OOM you pretty early into the fight from AB/AM/AM spam?
(153 haste rating from shoulders, bracers, belt, and staff. assume rings are hyjal exalted + wrath of cenarius and 2nd trinket is TLC)

This really isn't true, mana costs of spells remain constant through haste effects as does damage so DPM (not time related) does not change, while DPS (time related) does go up.

But yes the quick burn rate is troubling as it will depress the value that you get back through mana regen, pots, and your shadow priest compared to your burn rate.

Think of it this way though. If you're in combat for a fixed amount of time the only way to increase your mana regen for that fight is to spend more time outside of the FSR. The ideal way to maximize your mana would be to convert it all instantly into damage at a fixed DPM. Then stand around at 100% regen wanding until you can convert that damage instantly again. It's certainly counterintuitive but the AM haste strategy is the best option we have to achieve this goal. (Also keep in mind that quick burn rates will increase trinket uptime compared to cast time)

So I hopped on the PTR and cast a few thousand bolts at Dr Boom to try and figure out the if AM volley's which proc clearcast have arcane potency immediately applied, or where in the channel you started to pick up the benefits.

The second test was to see if channels following the proc channel have any benefits applied from arcane potency.

Additionally since there were a shit ton of casts I figured I would keep my TLC on and see if the crit rate was effected by arcane potency as well.

All tests were performed at a base crit chance of 25.51% from the character sheet with rank 3 AM. No haste rating or proc'ing items were used to avoid possible issues with latency and how quickly AP benefits were applied after a clearcast.

First test: Arcane Potency benefits on AM channels proc'ing clearcasting

WWS - No followup

My method for this was to cast AM and allow all bolts to hit, including any bolts from TLC, followed by a pause in casting. If clearcasting had proc'd I would click it off before beginning my next channel.

We would expect that if 10% of all channels proc'd clearcasting that we would see an average increase of 3% crit (30% boost 10% of the time.) This would leave us with an AM crit rate of 28.51%.

On this test I had 1381 missile hits, 579 crits, and 21 resists. This amounts to 1981 missles or something like 396 channels. I gained clearcast 37 of the expected 39 times and had a final crit rate of 29.5% on successful bolts. Now you're gonna need a huge number of bolts before the RNG stops fucking with your tests but it would appear that potency does indeed apply to all bolts of the proc'ing channel.

Conclusion: Potency is applied to all bolts of the proc'ing channel.

Second test: Arcane Potency benefits on AM channels which consume the clearcasting buff

WWS - AM consuming clearcast

For my method I just stood around and pressed the 1 button again after every channel finished. And was bored.

On this test I had 1702 hits 734 crits and 27 resisted bolts. This gives a total of 2463 bolts for something like 492 channels (losing bolts to Dr Boom dying, and the random flayer messing up my party.) We would expect 49 clearcasts on the test, however I only gained 44. Six of those clearcasts were immediately following a previous clearcast.

The back to back clearcasts are significant because it is possible that potency will give 100% benefit to a channel consuming the buff, whether the buff is up or not. A back to back clearcast would only benefit 3 casts where if those 2 proc's were spread out potency would be applied to 4.

Disregarding any of that fancy stuff we get a crit rate of 30.1%. Certainly far enough above the base crit and slightly above the previous experiment which we already recognize as 1% greater than the expected value.

If we apply an increase in crit rate of 30% to 2 channels for each clearcast we didn't see that we should have (5) as well as 6 channels of potency lost due to back to back clearcasting we get

.3 * ((10 + 6) * 5) = 24 more missiles that should have crit.

This would change our figures to 1678 hits and 758 crits, this would increase our crit rate to 31.1% just shy of the 31.5% we would expect to see if potency were to apply to 2 channels of AM on a single clearcast.

Conclusion: Potency is applied to all bolts of the channel consuming a clearcast proc.


Ancillary test: Potency is applied to crit rate on TLC bolts

With 432 bolts seen and 143 of those being crits, I think we can safely say that potency does apply to lightning bolt crits. It was also interesting that on the bolts from the first test the crit rate was 6% higher than the second test. My theory for this difference is that crits on the 5th bolt of a clearcast AM would be generated after the second AM began casting having already consumed the buff. Since this was guaranteed to not happen in the first test we would see a higher crit rate.

The implications that this would have on how WoW calculates crit rate on AM for the entire channel with regards to potency makes my head hurt, so I'm probably not going to think about that right now.

Sorry, shouldn't have said DPM, i was referring to the burn rate. Pure DPS wise, yes haste seems to be awesome from the tests others have conducted so far. But in terms of manageable burn rate, i don't know if haste rating is better than sticking to traditional hit/crit/dmg stats.

I believe haste is good. However, i have this feeling that each spell has an optimal haste value that, if you exceed, will lead to you burning mana way too quickly, hampering your damage output in the long run. I might be totally off the mark with this though, so please hit me on the head if i overlooked anything in regards to this.

Random discovery of the day, while farming primal fires.
You can get arcane potency applied TWICE to your spells.

/cast AM
(clearcast proc)
(at this point, even if you don't consume clearcast, your AM bolts still do get clearcast, as was established earlier)
/cast AM
(clearcast procs again)
(at this point you get potency twice to your bolts, for +60% crit)

evidence following

Also, on a separate note, I tried MQG+ashtongue, leading to theses numbers:

[Ring of Ancient Knowledge] -> 31/21 = +1.48%
[Pattern: Bracers of Nimble Thought] -> 28/21 = +1.33%
[Mind Quickening Gem] -> 330/21 = +15.71%
[Ashtongue Talisman of Insight] -> 145/21 = +6.90%

values for trinkets
if additive: 15.71% + 6.90% = 22.61%
if multiplicative: 15.71% * 6.90% = 21.52%

pyroblast cast time, as shown while hovering over the spell

<using ring+bracers>
regular cast = 5.84s (+2.67%)
ashtongue proc = 5.47s (+8.83%)
MQG = 5.06s (+15.60%)
MQG + ashtongue proc = 4.79s (+20.17%)

<using no passive spell haste>
regular cast = 6.00s (+0%) (don't laugh, I actually double checked to be sure after seeing the other numbers...)
ashtongue proc = 5.61s (+6.50%) *1
MQG = 5.19s (+13.50%) *2
MQG + ashtongue proc = 4.89s (+18.50%) *3

-------

conclusion 1: ??? WTF -- trinkets or passive spell haste is NOT working
conclusion 2: 21 points of spell haste does not equal 1% spell haste. More points are needed (ugh)
theory: spell data is wrong.

EDIT
Many many numbers in there don't even add up. First, as shown in *1 and *2, ashtongue gives 6.50% and MQG gives 13.50%. Problem is, their ratios don't even match ! 145 haste rating -> 6.50% vs 330 haste ratings -> 13.50%. That means spell haste is potentially on a diminishing return, -or- that one of the 2 items don't actually gives the number of spell haste ratings the tooltip indicates (this wouldn't be a first actually). Then you can see at *3 that they do not seem to be additive, and neither multiplicative.
additive: 6.50% + 13.50% = 20%
multiplicative: 6.50% * 13.50% = 19.12%

Your calculation of haste based on the modified cast times is wrong.
If you cast a 6s Pyroblast with +100% haste, it's at 3s cast time.

To calculate it backwards:
6s (original cast)/3s (hasted cast) = 2 = 200%.
That means you cast it twice as fast, or at 200% speed. 100% is the base speed, so haste makes up for the remaining 200%-100% = +100% speed.

You calculated something else though:
With 3s cast time, you cast it 3s faster than normal. 3s (saved time)/6s (normal cast time) = 50%. But that doesn't mean 50% haste.

I cleared up your results, the corrected haste values (from displayed cast times) are listed below.
The cast time has only 2 digits shown, so there is a base error margin of 0.01s from rounding the cast time up/down. 0.01s/6s ~ 0.15%. So there is a base inaccuracy of 0.15% in all haste values.

Also, your calculated value for a possible multiplicative haste of both trinkets was off.

From the looks, all results fit the "haste rating items are additive" theory, up to a margin of error of 0.1% (absolute), which is in the limit of our base inaccuracy.

Edit:
The only thing faster than a gnome can be ... another gnome mage!
No clue what happened with the post times, I edited and corrected my post a few times though.

I've been lurking a while here, but just to have a quick check on the maths above:

Ring - 31
Bracers - 28
Gem - 330
Talisman - 145

If 21 haste points = 1% haste rating:
In total, thats 534 haste rating, which gives us 178/7, or 25.4285713...% haste.

Now, I might just be horribly confused, but I was under the impression that spellhaste worked something like "100% spellhaste = half the cast time".

Or to be more exact, that I *think* the formula goes like this:
Time taken to cast spell = (origional time taken)/(1+spellhaste percentage rating)

To make sure I dont pull these numbers out of my ass, I can simply apply that to the numbers in the previous post,

<using ring + bracers only>
(31+28)/21 = 2.8095..% haste
6/(1+0.028095..) = 5.8360 seconds - rounds up to 5.84

<no passive spellhaste + MQG + ashtongue proc>
(330+145)/21 = 22.61904..% haste
6/(1+0.22619...) = 4.8932 seconds - rounds up to 4.89

<no passive spellhaste + MQG only>
330/21 = 15.71428..% haste
6/(1+0.15714...) = 5.1852 seconds - rounds up to 5.19

If you look at the above numbers, and compare them to the ones in the previous post, youll see that in all the cases the numbers come out right in the tooltip (give or take some rounding up).

I'm not particuarly sure what formula you were attempting to use beforehand in order to calculate spellhaste, but it would seem the formula above works fine for all the cases you've mentioned.

Either way - the conclusion I can gather from that is that spellhaste is actually additive, where you add up all the "+spellhaste" that you get from your items and simply apply the above formula.

What I don't know yet, is how it works for things such as beserking. This is because beserking simply takes a %age off your cast time, and does not have any particular spellhaste specified. But I would be inclined to beleive that %age based spellhaste such as beserking works multiplicatively, but I havn't tested it.

Edit: Oh piffle. Rowyn got there before me. What is even stranger is that the forum timer says i posted before Rowyn.

On a sidenote. Haste rating is changed on PTR/2.2(?), although not in the patch notes (yet):

...

Spell Haste Rating (caster)

Unlike melee haste rating, casters gain a buff here, since the required amount of spell haste rating for 1% spell haste has been lowered from 21 to 15.7...

Source: Worldofraids forums :: Haste rating hidden changes on PTR

Hi Roywyn. Thanks for pointing out my mistakes, it sure as hell makes a lot more sense. If anything, this is good to know that spell haste is additive. And wow, finally, spell haste nerf being undone, this is even better news

ya i would like to know this too, before i spend lots of hours farming this piece of shit a 2nd time

Hey all.
My wife is a deep arcane mage, and we're trying to find ways to improve her damage output in raids. Here's a link to her armory.

The Armory

She's got her mount trinket on there, but it should be Quag's Eye. From reading the last few pages of this thread (I'm a bit confused about what works now, and what will work in 2.2), it sounds like she should switch to a Mystical Skyfire Diamond, and... then I'm lost. Getting a Wrath of Cenarius will only work after 2.2? The Elder Scribes has an internal cooldown, so she should replace that, I guess? She originally was frost, so has full frozen shadoweave, and has been hesitant to respec her tailoring to spellfire, since spellfire doesn't seem to be a whole lot better than what she's got. In terms of progression, we've downed Lurker and Morogrim, and are working on Karathress. Her typical rotation is ABx2-AM-Scorch, or ABx3-AM-Scorch, depending on how mana conservative she wants to be. Can anyone suggest some changes to make to improve her raid damage output?

Not to steal the thread but i was wondering if in peoples oppinions with spell haste nerf undone slightly, where that would put Quag's Eye trinket as far as boosting DPS goes compared to other options (Sextant/LC/Crusade card) Ect.

Or is it still gonna be sat in the bank rotting? =)

Also dying to know the results, if someone is kind enough to play around and let us know =)

Look below on the "procs" line for the average time between procs for Cenarius/Ashtongue/TLC/MSD

1200 +dmg
350 +crit
76 +hit
arcane missle spam

boss fight, 10min length, infinite mana assumed (i know this is a ridiculous assumption)
optimal raid/party setup including CoS, Elemental Shaman, Moonkin Druid.
bloodlust triggered once
200ms latency

<snip>

EDIT: Temporarily gutted the post while I re-run the sims. Don't want to leave misinformation up for too long....

So im going back to my pre tbc main due to some serious crap on my 2nd account with bt geared warrior (cry) and im aware that 10/48/3 beats everything for PVE but i wonder how does this could work Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft with primary nuke scorch. Assume 35% crit rate on scorch.

Another question. Assuming 10min fight, chaincasting fireballs (10/48/3) with SP in group + mage armour up and general weak mana regen, are u able to keep up with all gems + Evo?
If not, do mana pots let u keep up or answer is still no?

Btw any1 can link fresh working mage spreadsheet? Cant find :S

Pure scorch spam is horrible for DPS.

Chain casting fireballs shouldn't be any problem at all, but your mana levels may vary depending largely on your shadowpriest(and his gear). In almost all situations though, mana pots should be more than enough to keep your mana healthy.

What "happened" with scorch and builds based on it past TBC?
- is it due to new ranks not gaining as much as FireB ?
- Quartz stopspellcasting?
- Insane mana regen from SP?
- all of above? :-) (god please give back old scorch times :PPP )

The Armory

Current but oldie gear

Scorch build came up when TBC came out and before the TLC nerf. The build was never viable, just some odd people that found out you could sustain decent DPM for a long time with not too bad DPS. It was never optimal at anything save DPM.

With more haste, the amount of all procs goes up but the amount of Ashtongue procs goes down? That seems odd to me, or am I being dense?

Wrath of Cenarius - best uptime is a proc every 22.2 seconds a 132 damage proc for 10 seconds. 132*10/22.2 = 59.5 spell damage. Maybe a bit less since procs will overlap?

Intellect for a gnome (+5%) arcane (+15%) mage with blessing of kings (+10%) clocks at around 0.6 damage for me just from mind mastery and spell crit, not counting that you get more mana to burn. Spell crit is around 0.6 damage as well for AM spam.
With that, Ring of Recurrence/Violet Signet of the Archmage are at 53 damage, Band of Eternity is at 55/58/63/? (at the different reputation levels), Ring of Captured Storms is around 60 damage plus the spell hit, Ring of Ancient Knowledge is around 75-90 damage (depending on the rating changes).

Wrath of Cenarius definately doesn't look it's worth grinding for really.
If I had one, I'd use it to get more text popping up on my screen, but I wouldn't go and grind one myself.

Well, it depends. If you do a fight and you know your group is going to get 2-3 bloodlusts on that one fight, I think its definately worth grinding. I have plans to grind one, if the mystical/AM behavior sticks in 2.2, if only to know whether or not it procs on AM ticks.