[Mage] How Can Arcane Damage Work? - Page 41

Freez · 08/21/07, 11:59 AM

I had been fire mage before I respeced arcane few weeks ago so I am still n00b here.
Could you clarify for me what should I go for if I see that I have still too much mana durring the encounter. Should I start spaming AB or AM?

The Armory

Zwink · 08/21/07, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by Freez

I had been fire mage before I respeced arcane few weeks ago so I am still n00b here.
Could you clarify for me what should I go for if I see that I have still too much mana durring the encounter. Should I start spaming AB or AM?

The Armory

Arcane Blast without any question. It is the highest dps, it just comes at very low dpm.

Anaxo · 08/21/07, 5:57 PM

And remember to pop Arcane Power if you are AB spamming. Since the extra 30% mana cost is taken from the 195 base mana use instead of compounding from the debuff's modifier, the increase in mana consumption is not as great as you'd think. Manly made a chart earlier in the thread showing the mana usage of Arcane Blast when modified by T5, the debuff, and Arcane Power.

◊ manly · 08/21/07, 6:01 PM

Arcane Blast is the best DPS spell you can use for the most part. However it also has the lowest DPM.

Bendelat · 08/21/07, 6:18 PM

Given the data in post #981 I believe that with the proper gear AM spam can exceed AB spam for DPS only. It would be interesting for dedmonwakeen to run his simulator with AB spam replacing AM spam. Of course the GCD would impact AB spam nearly immediately. Haste doesn't help AB spam at all except during the ramp up stage.

AM gets excellent coefficients due to its large bonus from empowered AM. It has the benefits of all waves and possible double dipping from clearcasting. It doesn't consume the focus charge from MSD though it gets the benefit and so can double dip there with lucky timing. Though the mana consumption would be large it looks to me that DPS wise AM spam with a haste set of gear would be very interesting and > than AB spam. Additionally it would be better DPM than AB spam. Fitting more AMs into +dmg proc and AP is also very interesting and will have positive effects for dps and dpm (due to the way the empowered AM works with AP).

jula · 08/22/07, 6:14 AM

@dedmonwakeen (post #981) - how do you model the "purchase" of haste?

in your first example of 100 haste rating you only sacrifice 27 dmg for +100 haste rating.
in your last example of 400 hasteing you sacrifice 82 dmg for the last +100 hasting (from +300 to +400).

the results can be very misleading to show haste is better than it is if this ratio is not consistent with the game....

on a side note, the purchase of hit and crit are in fact fixed in all experiments, so it doesnt matter how much +dmg u model losing to get those. you could say you start with a fixed dmg=1117 hit=6.0 crit=24.7 haste=0.0 and then replace some dmg with haste...

Freez · 08/22/07, 6:31 AM

Thanks for your reply guys.
Is it correct that durring bloodlust AB spamming is also best for dps (assuming that I have no mana problem)?

Freez · 08/22/07, 6:54 AM

Originally Posted by Anaxo

Manly made a chart earlier in the thread showing the mana usage of Arcane Blast when modified by T5, the debuff, and Arcane Power.

In that thread it is also stated that arcane mage should rather use damage consumables over mana regen. I understand that I should always use wizard over mana oil but what about elixirs and flasks. Shall I go for supreme power or maybe dreanic wisdom+adepts?

Remitroll · 08/22/07, 8:03 AM

I’m still trying to maximise my gear for Arcane within the constraints of the gear that I have access to. (Current Progress – VR, Hydross and Lurker down working on Karathress)

I had some thoughts about where to go next with gear, but having played around with Vontre’s spreadsheet, now I’m not so sure.

Current gear -Armoury
Trinket wise, I have the Crusade Deck ready to hand in at the next faire and am still farming Illhoof for TLC.

I assuming Spellfire will not be broken for the foreseeable future. 2*T5 will come from VR and Karathress, but considering time to kill Karathress plus the DKP I’ll need to get both items that may be some ways off.

Given I’m still running Kara on a regular basis, I had considered replacing Spellstrike with Trial Fire Trousers and Collar of the Aldor (+Relentless Meta). I’m now not sure on this, particularly given the greater proc chance of SpellStrike post 2.2. So what I’m now thinking is not breaking spellstrike until I have 2*T5 and subbing in T4 helm until I can get T5 Helm

Thoughts?

kycan · 08/22/07, 9:04 AM

While I commend everyone's enthusiasm, may I politely remind the collect mage population that fire spec beats arcane up until 2-piece tier 5, and AM spam only works at insanely high levels of gear. And even then, fire spec is arguably more consistent (if not exactly ideal for the content itself).

Blaaksunn · 08/22/07, 9:44 AM

Originally Posted by Freez

In that thread it is also stated that arcane mage should rather use damage consumables over mana regen. I understand that I should always use wizard over mana oil but what about elixirs and flasks. Shall I go for supreme power or maybe dreanic wisdom+adepts?

I usually go with elixirs over flasks in instances where I know a wipe is unlikely to occur. With elixirs you get more mana regen, slighlty less +dmg, bigger mana tank, and more crit over a flask.

For learning new encounters of repeated wipes I usually go with a flask for the reason that it is cheaper than blowing 20-40 elixirs for the nights work. If you have the gold, stay with elixirs.

With the new +80 flasks comming out I will have to rethink my ideas on elixirs again. I might be going back to flasks rather than elixirs.

Maledict · 08/22/07, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by kycan

While I commend everyone's enthusiasm, may I politely remind the collect mage population that fire spec beats arcane up until 2-piece tier 5, and AM spam only works at insanely high levels of gear. And even then, fire spec is arguably more consistent (if not exactly ideal for the content itself).

If 2.2 goes live as is, according to Vontres spreadsheet spamming arcane missils in arcane gear with a Mystical Skyfire Diamond equipped gives a very slight DPs increase over fireball spamming in my fire gear, at an obvious cost of a much worse DPM.

Note that I don't have a lightning capacitator either, so I do think the build is viable at the tier 5 level of gear based on the theorycraft numbers we have.

dedmonwakeen · 08/22/07, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by jula

@dedmonwakeen (post #981) - how do you model the "purchase" of haste?

Each of the player profiles starts with a default 1200 +dmg budget, and I assume that ALL of that budget is "evenly liquid". In practice, this simply isn't the case given the +dmg spike at the weapon slot and the availability of enchants at other slots.

Side note: When I do my "power rankings", I actually break the 1200 into a fixed portion and a liquid portion. This is important because the larger your +dmg pool, the smaller the cost for tradeoff becomes.

The code is pretty simple, so I'm just going to post it instead of explaining it:

void player_t::gear_t::allocate_budget( sim_t* sim )
{
  report_t::debug( sim, "Allocating +dmg budget...." );   

  if(   hit_rating == 0 &&
       crit_rating == 0 &&
      haste_rating == 0 )
  {
    spell_dmg[ SPELL_SCHOOL_MAX ] = spell_dmg_budget;
    return;
  }

  if( budget_slots == 0 ) budget_slots = 16;

  double slot_dmg   = spell_dmg_budget / (double) budget_slots;
  double slot_hit   = hit_rating       / (double) budget_slots;
  double slot_crit  = crit_rating      / (double) budget_slots;
  double slot_haste = haste_rating     / (double) budget_slots;

  double target = pow( slot_dmg * sim -> dmg_coeff, 1.5 );

  double cost = pow( slot_hit,   1.5 ) +
                pow( slot_crit,  1.5 ) +
                pow( slot_haste, 1.5 );

  spell_dmg[ SPELL_SCHOOL_MAX ] = (int16_t) ( budget_slots * pow( target - cost, 1.0 / 1.5 ) / sim -> dmg_coeff );
  
  report_t::debug( sim, "slot_dmg=%.1f  slot_hit=%.1f  slot_crit=%.1f  slot_haste=%.1f  target=%.1f  cost=%.1f  spell_dmg=%d\n",
                   slot_dmg, slot_hit, slot_crit, slot_haste, target, cost, spell_dmg[ SPELL_SCHOOL_MAX ] );
}

tedv · 08/22/07, 11:22 AM

I just spotted this gem in the latest patch notes:

Increased the duration of the Mystical Skyfire Diamond’s cast speed buff to 10 seconds.

So first that makes the uptime ridiculous, as long as the arcane missile uses but does not consume the buff. (It's even better for shadow priests, since we only have to wait 3 seconds for our normal speed channeled spell to finish before getting casting hasted spells.)

Of course, given how ridiculous this is, I'd expect them to fix the bug, such that instant cast channeled spells consume the buff they use. It might be best to work out the numbers for both of these cases.

dedmonwakeen · 08/22/07, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Bendelat

Given the data in post #981 I believe that with the proper gear AM spam can exceed AB spam for DPS only. It would be interesting for dedmonwakeen to run his simulator with AB spam replacing AM spam. Of course the GCD would impact AB spam nearly immediately. Haste doesn't help AB spam at all except during the ramp up stage.

My sims support Manly's assertion that MSD+TLC+Ahstongue make Arcane Missles superior to Arcane Blast both in terms of DPS and DPM....... However, the DPM is low enough that most encounters will prevent pure AM spam. Manly's point is that when the time comes for a mana dump, switching to AM-spam will net more overall damage.

Even picking alternate trinkets (Crusade, Icon, etc) for the Arcane Blast spam still doesn't close the DPS gap.

dedmonwakeen · 08/22/07, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by tedv

I just spotted this gem in the latest patch notes:

Increased the duration of the Mystical Skyfire Diamond’s cast speed buff to 10 seconds.

So first that makes the uptime ridiculous, as long as the arcane missile uses but does not consume the buff. (It's even better for shadow priests, since we only have to wait 3 seconds for our normal speed channeled spell to finish before getting casting hasted spells.)

Of course, given how ridiculous this is, I'd expect them to fix the bug, such that instant cast channeled spells consume the buff they use. It might be best to work out the numbers for both of these cases.

Or they may no longer allow missle volleys to trigger "on hit" procs since now you can finish your AM channel without losing the buff......

tedv · 08/22/07, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Or they may no longer allow missle volleys to trigger "on hit" procs since now you can finish your AM channel without losing the buff......

That doesn't solve the problem of shadow priests casting up to 7 mind flays in 10.5 seconds, with a 35% chance of refreshing the buff for at least one more cast. I already do over 2200 DPS for the duration of the focus effect, if both DoTs are up. The only thing that makes this "fair" is that focus only lasts for 1 to 3 mind flays, not 7.

Aldric · 08/22/07, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Or they may no longer allow missle volleys to trigger "on hit" procs since now you can finish your AM channel without losing the buff......

Wait, huh? I'm not following what you're going for here. Do you mean changing it just for missiles and the MSD, because all on hit procs was the entire point of the AM changes for this patch.

In any case if that change does go through with AM consuming the buff at cast start (but still gaining the haste) with a chance to proc per missile I would consider that an overall gain. It would mean you no longer have to make the choice to cancel a channel to make use of the buff to gain DPS at the cost of DPM. No more double dip kinda sucks but I would call it worth it.

Maligne · 08/22/07, 11:43 AM

Hah. Yeah, there's no way AM is not consuming the buff anymore. Imagine trying to heal someone in the arena that's getting triple or quadruple double speed AM cast at them.

dedmonwakeen · 08/22/07, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Aldric

Wait, huh? I'm not following what you're going for here. Do you mean changing it just for missiles and the MSD, because all on hit procs was the entire point of the AM changes for this patch.

Bah.... Sorry: Trying to do real work, listen to a telecon, and read my favorite forum at the same time.....

In any case if that change does go through with AM consuming the buff at cast start (but still gaining the haste) with a chance to proc per missile I would consider that an overall gain. It would mean you no longer have to make the choice to cancel a channel to make use of the buff to gain DPS at the cost of DPM. No more double dip kinda sucks but I would call it worth it.

Yeah, this helps in the case where the very first volley triggered the buff. With no +haste, the buff might expire before the other four volleys complete.

tedv · 08/22/07, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Aldric

In any case if that change does go through with AM consuming the buff at cast start (but still gaining the haste) with a chance to proc per missile I would consider that an overall gain. It would mean you no longer have to make the choice to cancel a channel to make use of the buff to gain DPS at the cost of DPM. No more double dip kinda sucks but I would call it worth it.

For the record, there was nothing in the patch notes about fixing the bug of the focus buff not always being consumed. That doesn't mean a lot but it means something. Someone want to check out the PTR and see how it works now?

CHeeSY-CrAfT · 08/22/07, 2:13 PM

No changes on the PTR; same 4 second Focus buff duration and unconsumed by channeled spells.

Zure · 08/22/07, 3:49 PM

Slow learner here.

doogless · 08/22/07, 3:52 PM

My reading of the talent is that you gain mana when you resist a spell cast on you, not gain mana when one of your spells is resisted. Is that really not how it works?

Pheroz · 08/22/07, 3:58 PM

No. Doogless, your right. Zure's post is based entirely on a misunderstanding of how the talent works. An interesting thought if the talent worked that way, but it's not to be.