Ugh, had I knew, I would have had put the kael'thas gloves on, or something else heh. But anyway, the real problem here is that magic absorption works on full resists (ie: misses) on spells casted that targets you.

Otherwise, I'd consider magic absorption as an actual DPS talent if it did work the way you describe. (as in: odds are you gain mana on every fight).

At any rate, we definately have to see how the MSD change will go in the next PTR. If AM consumes the focus buff its a huge dps loss.

Basically, I'm an idiot today. Haven't looked much at the talent since AOE grinding silithus for gold I didn't really need ;-)

Post deleted.

Without a ton of passive haste, it wasn't that easy to "double-dip" the MSD buff..... only 2/5 of the volleys.

And with a 4sec duration, some procs went unused.

I remember when you first ran the sims you had a switch to flip to fix the MSD 'bug'. Would it be possible to get numbers ran with the buff extended to 10s but consumed on AM in comparison to the earlier numbers? (probably under just a no haste and high haste gear set)

Manly's high DPS case most likely assumes caster intervention to force the double dip almost every time. I'll try to find some time to theorycraft what sort of DPM to DPS tradeoffs this gives. Maybe they'll even push out the change to the PTR before I go to all the trouble, 10s of unconsumed buff per proc would be ludicrous.

ideally yes I was assuming 'forcing' to use focus procs if one was to go unused (ie: all that matters is that as long as you begin to cast AM at the last second of focus proc you get a fully hasted AM). The only case where that would happen is on the last tick of your AM, assuming you had a focus proc occur upon casting AM (and not on your first tick). The case would occur rarely as it is. But yes its a small DPM loss for a much welcomed DPS gain.

I already had plans to make a custom version of quartz specifically designed for adaptive cast patterns, alerting you when you should stopcast your AM, etc.)

But with all of this said, I think it makes a hell of a lot more sense to have 10s cooldown on focus proc. 4s was just stupid - the only reason it was acceptable is because channelled spells didn't consume it. Even if its definately up par to what we had in the previous PTR (yes I know its in the patchnotes but not actually on the ptr), I think it opens up some new possibilities. Far far less interesting, but I do believe that 3x AB AM scorch rotations could make good use of a 10s focus proc (assuming AM consumes it). You could do 3x AB AM AM (2.5s), 3x AB AM fireball (1.5s) amongst interesting variations. All it will do is give a decent alternative to relentless earthstone diamond. I have not ran the numbers to get an idea of which meta is the best, but my gut-feeling tells me RED would be better as far as 3x AB AM scorch rotations are concerned.

I have not checked the numbers, but I do think that if AM consumes focus proc it would make the AB AM AM rotation far less interesting. All of this is assumed given the 10s focus time. It wouldn't make sense that focus lasts 10s and that AM doesnt consume focus. It would be far far too good - almost good enough to actually consider AM spam as fire spec if you get a proc during fireball spam. I would not be surprised that this change makes the whole build close to useless to be quite frank. I guess I'll wait and see on the next PTR patch see what exactly happens with it.

6 chances to proc per AM cast has a higher value than the rare double dipping of a focus proc. My gut is diametrically apposed to yours in this case.

All Bendelat is saying is that even if the consume does happen now, having the chance to proc on each tick is still a net gain overall for arcane dps. The buff outweighs the loss so to speak.

I believe we agree. And the net is still a buff.

Manly i'm a little confused as to how having 10 seconds on the focus lasting time as well as having the ability to proc 9-10(?) times in the ABx3, AM, scorch rotation, allowing "new options" for that rotation with use of the gem.

I understand that if AM procs focus (which is the mostly likely case of focus being procced), then you can substitute the scorch with either another AM (2.5 seconds) or a fireball (1.5 seconds).

But say if focus procs on any of the AB, or the scorch at the end of the rotation, wont that destroy the rotation in a similar way to how it does in live?

If it procs on the scorch, then that could have a disastrous effect because scorch+AM lasts 6.5 seconds, and you want a 1.5 second arcane blast on the end of that where the mana is only consumed after the debuff has gone. In the event of a focus proc like that, you'll have to "wait" 0.75 seconds to keep the rotation, as well as the fact that because of the global cooldown wont allow any higher DPS.

Given that the second and third AB have 2.2 and 1.8 second casting times (the tooltip says 2.17 and 1.83s? im a bit wary on this bit) then you will "save" either 0.7s or 0.3s.
So if you use focus on either of those arcane blasts, you will again have 0.7 or 0.3 extra seconds at the end of the rotation, in which to "wait" for the arcane blast

I can only assume it gets even more complicated if focus procs more than once in that rotation, so overall I think I can say that MSD wont be worth using in the origional ABx3 AM scorch rotation.

It would be a great shame if the PTR rolls so that AM consumes the focus buff, and i really hope it doesnt.
But yes, it would be absolutely rediculous if AM doesnt consume the focus buff and it lasts 10 seconds.

Also one more thing that i'm confused about - given the above, how would you plan to use AM as a "mana dump" in the old case where focus only lasted 4 seconds? I still cant see a way where a focus proc would not destroy the rotation of ABx3 AM scorch.

Hi

I did not read the whole thread but the most of it and you often say that arcane is competitive to deep fire but in our raids our arcane mage kicks asses. He is the only caster who can compete with the melees.
Mostly we have a very bad magesetup with an arcane/frost, a deep fire (me, Armory Link of my mage (normally there is the icon of the silver crescent instead of the riding trinket)) and an arcane mage (Armory Link of the arcane mage ). Pre TBC i was one of our number one damage dealer and now my damage is really bad. Often I am between the warlocks and shadowpriests but far behind the melees. I don't think my gear is so bad that I can't compete with the melees (of course it could be better) so is arcane really what it looks to me? The future of raiding mages or is the damage of our fire mages only so gimped because of the magesetup (only one mage to make the whole scorch debuff)?
Btw. i saw damage meters from other guilds with deep fire mages on the first places.

Sorry to derail from the BT/Hyjal haste rating meta gem proccing chat, but I only just received my second T5 piece and spec'd Arcane for tonights raid (albeit a bad nights raiding).

I have TLC so I went with 43/18/0.

The Armory

Having only JUST respec'd form 10/48/3 I still have a lot of hit gems in my spellfire gear which I will be replacing with +9dmg gems.

Wow Web Stats

Hydross and Lurker dead and wipes on Tidewalker due to people just generally playing like shit.

Used a ABx3, AM then Scorch rotation as much as I could, and AP+PoM+Pyro and AB spam where appropriate.

I actually really like the spec and put out MORE then competitive DPS. I am happy with my outcome, but I am just asking about our other Mage (Daave) who also just spec'd arcane (40/18/3 with ABx3, Fireballx2 rotation as he does not have a TLC).

The Armory

Again, he only just got his 2pc bonus and still has many hit gems left over from 10/48/3. Is the spec/rotation I suggested appropriate for him as he does not have a TLC? Sadly I never really looked into Arcane builds that do not incorporate TLC and AM.

I will play around with the spreadsheet and enter his gear but, for some reason, I prefer anecdotal evidence to reassure myself that my modeling is accurate =/

wouldn't this be the thing to do on a scorch proc?

AB, AB, AB, AM, scorch, proc, AM, restart AB stack

Yes and no. The first thing to recall is that doing focus -> scorch will fuck up with your GCD - you will still have to wait 1.5s, thus making you go into the > 8s time. As I said before, every fucked up AB rotation will cost you approx 7.3% DPS loss.

Here's how I view this:
AB, AB, AB, AM, scorch, proc, *

case 1: wait. ... pro: following AB will be 1.5s cast time (GCD counted in) rather than 2.5s. con: not gaining DPS from focus proc

case 2: 2.5s AM ... pro: 2.5s AM con: 2.5s AB

in other words, its as if your focus proc is being used on a 3.5s AM (2.5s + 1s lost time from AB), which is not really *all that efficient. It *is a DPS gain, but so would be 3x AB, AM, fireblast. There are good reasons you want to avoid bad DPM under your 'high DPM' rotation. You want to agree with the theorem of the 2 spells rotations as much as possible. As such, you want one 'high DPM' rotation, and one 'high DPS' rotation to better utilise the resources available. 3.5s AM is starting to get oddily in the grey area where its technically a DPS gain, and a not too bad DPM loss, but its really hard to classify whether or not its worth doing. If I had to put my money somewhere, I would propose to avoid casting AM simply because I don't think the benefits outweight the pretty steep cost.

You know what I find funny? You seem to be making the same mistake I did. And this is exactly what I've been trying to get people to understand. I know in WWS it shows you as having some super DPS, but thats a function of how WWS calculates DPS time%. If you check your hydross parse, you can see that you have much lower DPS time than fire spec mages, and ultimately that's what I am getting consistently as well. You see, the fireball dot causes the DPS to be spread out on a longer time, which somewhat hides the true DPS of fire spec.

Check almost every parse, arcane mages always have lower DPS time% than fire mages, and as a consequence, better DPS. It doesn't mean however that you do get more damage dealt. You would be very surprised to see the DPS of fire mages when played properly. This reminds me directly of last week (and yes, first time I post parses of me as arcane mage):
Wow Web Stats
Stion still beat me with fire spec, and he had no COE. There's also Naj'entus on that same parse, and its the same thing. I don't know about you Xei, but for me I've been constantly crushed by fire spec when you play against people that play their spec properly. I really need to be spamming AB like a madman to hope to be competitive.

EDIT: in case you ask I'm only arcane spec because of illidan.

With the upcoming patch I have heard that each missile can proc the Pendant of the Violet Eye, would this change make this trinket wanted by a AM spamming mage with some passive haste?

Ok thanks that makes a lot more sense now. I wasn't trying to be rude or anything I just didn't really understand what you meant.

But you're doing AB rotations. You might get 27% (its not 30%) chance to proc focus again, but that's also why you have AM spam tackled at the end. I never said you would lose DPS. The problem has always been DPM. You want to conform as close as possible to [Math] The Two-Cycle Theorem of Spell Selection . As such, if you decide to ignore DPM then you might as well switch directly to your DPS rotation, rather than try and retrofit it. If we wanted to speak about how to optimize DPS then I could just as well point out that 3x AB AM fireblast provides better DPS for a DPM rotation, but the problem is that all it accomplishes is weakening your real DPS rotation (ie: AB spam, or AM spam).

The rotations are meant to be far more complicated once you start to add clearcasting. I do believe that there isn't much DPS gain to be had by doing 2.5s AM and having to start over your AB rotation with a 2.5s AB. Technically its more DPS, but its also far worse DPM.

Manly, you seem to have backed off this rotation for the time being - do you believe it is pretty much dead now if AM consumes the focus buff?

The thought of a non-adaptive, all arcane rotation had me thinking arcane might actually work for me and I am not at all convinced that arcane is really worth the trouble otherwise.


Being honest with myself - this kind of adaptation is well beyond my skill level to pull off

AB AM AM isn't too bad, provided you can sustain the DPM. Its like the one-man-out rotation that's trying to be both high DPS and high DPM at the same time. The rotation is very mana intensive, but it also makes the best use of procs and clearcast/arcane potency double dips. It also can make indirectly mini AB rotations. Here is what theory, and every simulations points to, for that rotation:

normal 'DPM' rotation: AB AM AM (note: always AM if you proc clearcast)
during AP: AB spam (assuming 2pc t5 particularly, I am not sure if it is worth it if using 4pc t6)
during bloodlust: AM spam or usual rotation. Both produce excellent results. This was crazy when AM was not consuming focus, but since we assume it now does, then there is not much incentive to switch to AM spam.

The important thing to keep in mind with that rotation is that its suited for very high-end gear. It also assumes somewhat short fights. While you should be able to sustain it relatively long with raid buffs, it certainly won't be good for all fights due to its somewhat bad DPM. However, nothing stops you from using a 'high DPM' rotation to pad up for that. I'm not gonna lie that high DPM rotations, depending on gear, can be somewhat atrocious. I would probably go for AB fireball fireball assuming 4pc t6 (ie: +5% fireball damage) and low amount of spell haste. But many factor will influence the choice. AB fireball scorch scorch will usually fit better given some spell haste, as well as giving more opportunities to proc clearcast. In any case, the important to keep in mind is that AB AM AM is not suited for long fights, or subpar gear that can't sustain the DPM. Yes, you do rely somewhat on that FSR mana tick. Yes everything is put in place in such a way that DPM is hard to work with, but overall damage should be extremely solid since it shapes well with extreme mana consumption (something that 3x AB AM scorch is not able to do very efficiently in my opinion).

Yes, I think AB AM AM is viable, but if you cant sustain it, then you need to keep 2pc t5 in your bag, and swap it on long fights so that you can do a more usual 3x AB AM scorch (or even 3x AB 2x fireball, but its somewhat clunkier given 48/13/0, although the dps is the same as you would get using 43/18/0). Think of it like a 'more appropriate' option available given fights that are 5min-.

If anything, yes I think its very viable. But I still have to see exactly how sustenable this is under real conditions.


As for adaptive rotations, you don't have to make them complex. Heres a variant that will give very similar results while being a lot easier to do:

1- AB, AB, AB, AM, scorch (ie: ignore procs on the first 2 AB)
2- AB, AB, AB, proc, AM, fireball, scorch
3- AB, AB, AB, AM, proc, fireball

that amuses me. all of your permutations constitute one "cycle", but adding one more permutation moves on to a new "cycle"?

The extra AMs would all be part of the same "cycle." Maybe that "cycle" DPM being worse would cause you to do less of your second cycle (AM spam presumably). That may or may not result in less DPS over a given fight duration. I personally doubt any rotation that includes "do nothing for .75s" is optimal;

edit: actually, if your second cycle were really to do AM spam, then dropping the AB stack to do a 2.5s AM is certainly worth losing one AM from your spam cycle.

I think it's worth noting that Manly is working under the assumption of a low JoW uptime raid. AM spam will very greatly depending on this factor and to a similar extent, if you're using TLC.

Using Manly's numbers from the Rage that he posted earlier of 900 AM ticks and an average AB hit of 2400 (and my own crit numbers of 33% on AM loosely accounting for double dip off of CC, and 36% off of AB.)

AM avg 1123 per missile
AB avg 3048
SC avg 1640 (base hit of 1100)

Cost per AM cast 785
Cost per standard ABx3 AM SC cycle (1140 ABs, 785 AM, 185 SC) total : 2110 mana

One of the advantages of the AB cycle is you gain a tick outside of the FSR, lets say the gain over a regular 45% tick is 70 mana (worked from a buffed BoW OOC regen of 350mp5)

DPM No JoW
AM Spam : 5615 / 785 = 7.15 dpm
AB Cycle : 16399 / 2040 = 8.04 dpm

DPM with JoW (74 mana per hit at a 50% proc rate)
AM Spam : 5615 / 600 = 9.36 dpm
AB Cycle : 16399 / 1707 = 9.61 dpm

DPM with JoW and TLC (avg bolt of 900)
AM Spam TLC Damage : 5 * .33 / 3 * 900 = 495
AB Cycle TLC Damage : (3 * .36 + 6 * .33) / 3 = 918

AM Spam : 6110 / 600 = 10.18 dpm
AB Cycle : 17317 / 1707 = 10.14 dpm

So, for sure, the statement that "AM spam is much worse dpm than an AB cycle" is highly dependent on your raid's JoW uptime

Obviously I never speak of 2 rotations. The 2nd rotation is always the same. high DPS rotation is always 1.5s AB spam, or given the new alternative, AM spam with mystical skyfire diamond and appropriate gear.

Ideally, on short fights, you want to use exclusively your DPS rotation. Problem is, its not sustenable. Your end goal is that your total damage is maximized. To get there, the only way you can do it is by balancing DPM and DPS usage by switching between 2 rotations, as proven by the theorem. To do that, there is only one way to approach the problem:

Build a high DPM rotation and a high DPS rotation. Do a fight using only your high DPM rotation until you know that if you switch to the high DPS rotation now, you will end the fight with 0 mana exactly as the boss dies. Ideally you want really just 1 rotation. The rotation should roughly provide the best DPS that matches exactly a DPM that will make your mana be exactly the same as the boss HP. This means, if you are at 50% mana (of your total mana, including mana pots/gems/etc.), the boss should be at 50% health. Thats the perfect best-case scenario. Since that's not really realistic, you want to have 2 rotations, namely, both as close to possible to that 'one' ideal rotation for the fight, with one rotation on the side of better DPS, the other with better DPM.

While 3x AB AM fireblast seems unoptimal under almost every fight, there are fights that depending on your gear and kill time it might come out exactly as being the perfect rotation to execute. But under most scenario its not good. Likewise, I gave you an incomplete list of adaptive cast rotations for a build I have no intention to play come 2.2. The rotations don't take into account clearcasting, which makes things far more complex. You're trying to make a conclusion about how things should be looking only at the tip of the iceberg, while I am saying that technically AM is better, but it also doesn't really have its place there either.

I believe the focus should be put on 1.5s AB at the cost of 2.5s AB, which is almost the highest DPS spell we have available (the only competitor being AM during AM spam under certain conditions), and also the best DPM. I believe that you're better off keeping your high DPM rotation, and only switch to your DPS rotation when you have reach a point where the rest of the fight can be done using only your highest DPS rotation. If you want to argue that you 'gain 2.5s of free cast time' by using your trick, then yes, you do, but by doing so you also lose 1s of AB time. But your assumption only works assuming you get to do 2 rotations. If something unpredictible happens (ie: shadow priest death) then that might prove to have been a rather poor choice. If you know for a fact that you will have a high DPS rotation going in, then yes, as I said, there are no bad incentive to do AM at that point. But trying to give a more 'broad' and adaptible rotation I would mostly advice against it.