You don't chose the skyfire metagem as arcane, you get the relentless earthstorm one - it's sort of messed up right now, I'm getting 181,5% crit intensity instead of the expected 175%+3% = 178%.

I wish we were better at getting WWS parses in my guild, but we aren't, so I can't flood you with WWS where I outperform other specs with 61 arcane.

I think it's a good point that it's not only a spec that delivers dmg, it's the person controlling the character combined with the gear. In the end it comes down to what playstyle you prefer. I've done all raiding specs over the last 2 months in all the content we've seen so far, I prefer the arcane build by miles and stick with it especially since I got my 2 set.

WWS doesn't mean anything when we don't know how good the other mages are. If you think 61 arcane can do more DPS, show me why my theorycraft doesn't match your reality. If the reason is anything other than the other mages underperforming, there should be a flaw you could find in the theory that makes it different than reality. Basic logic.

And yeah if you're using AB no point with using that meta as it's rarely giving you a good enough benefit, and besides the DPS increase from the 3% crit damage gem is not much less if not equal on dps anyway, while not costing extra mana to use (more casts = more mana more dps, higher damage = same mana more dps).

Reactive spell choice on clearcast can work -- as long as that clearcast comes from a volley of arcane missiles, so that you know ahead of time. I'm curious on what the "optimal rotation" (god I hate that phrase) becomes when we consider reacting to clearcasts off AM.

For example, starting from a 3xAB, AM, Scorch pattern, what is the best thing to do when that AM procs a clearcast? You can stick to the rotation, cast a full-debuff 1.5s AB for free and go back to AM to reset the debuff, or cast another missiles.

Chaining up another missiles does some very cool stuff. First off, as AM stops casting, you have just gotten off the 5 second rule, and clearcasted casts dont break regen. That nice long AM isnt just free, its getting you mana back. Plus, you are throwing out a full volley of AM at +30% crit... if you are at a mere 30% base crit, 60% crit and spell power means (406 + 0.54*DMG) DPS. 5 chances for JoW if its up too. With the potential of maintaining somewhere in the ballpark of 900-1000 DPS... and at less than 500 threat per second to boot (I dont want to figure out the power gain threat from JoW ). Of course, we also have to figure in an extra second of casting time since we lose the ability to cast the base-cost/max-speed AB.

The complexity of the arcane spec really makes me wish I still played a mage as my main. I loved the mage, but too often being a good mage just meant mashing one key, and throwing in that one other key at the right time. I'd love to see that blizzard got it right with arcane spec, and I think it would be great for arcane to be a prestige spec where you have the potential to really blow the rest of the DPS out of the water, but where you could fail miserably if you sucked.

It's kinda hard to math out off the top of my head, remember 2XAM means your AB debuff wears off which means your DPS suffers in return. Considering AM is weak to start with and AB is your main damage dealer and other spells are just fillers, and it only works on procs from AM and not from procs off of any other spells, I don't see this as something that makes AM strong enough to use. Need to calculate of course, but doubling or even more than doubling the effect of arcane potency simply doesn't look like it'll be worth it considering the lack of DPS AM offers in the firstplace on top of the AB DPS lost by using 2 AMs in a row.

I wouldn't be so fast to rule out chaining an extra AM when you get a clearcast after your first. For starters, as pointed out, arcane potency will make the spell a lot more interesting. But most importantly; more crits = more lightning capacitor dmg.

With regards to the gem, how? Admittedly I've not done alot of math with the gems, but how the +crit dmg works right now I doubt the extra fireballs can make it better for any build to begin with - it scales really well with crit and as said it adds more crit dmg then listed. (It's another discussion, but would really like to see some numbers comparing the half spell time vs 3% crit dmg - in its sketchy way of adding crit dmg atm)

My point was never about theorycraft being wrong, it was about playstyle/gear choice/player skill. This very thread is called: How can Arcane Damage Work? Added to that It's been about _can_ it work? It can, and it's not bad, if you like the spec, have fun with it, because it really is a great and fun spec to play in raids. It's not a pvp spec, it's a pure pve spec that works well in raids.

Yeah I got that, I've not seen any numbers comparing though, which was my question.

I get what you are getting at, but I think it's a bit far stretched. It's not a PvP or wacko spec that people are trying to make work. It works, and it does good dmg, and has potential to put out some really really good numbers, and excells especially in short fights - Which does exist as shown earlier.

I would think of my self as a pretty skilled player that have played the mage class since release and have alot of experience with literally all raid accepted specs in all contant pre TBC and up to and with Kael in TBC. So would I of some of our other mages, especially my guild master, our gear is not much different and I often outperform him - with the exact same buffs/groups (We are usually with a moonkin/shaman/spriest him and me).

I agree with your theorycrafting approach, it's just not the ingame results I've seen. Both specs have advantages, I simply don't agree with the fire or nothing approach alot seem to have. In the end it's about the encounter and how you adapt to it with your spec.

I hope this is done with error fixing... 1st page is for no latency 2nd page is with latency (as even with /stopcast there's a minimal and significant delay between casts):

http://fileho.com/download/b79468685264/mage.xls.html

Note it's not very user friendly as I only made it for my own comparisons but you might understand something out of it.

Some comments in reply to the last few posts.

I've recently done some theorycraft for Relentless diamond and my conclusion was the same as posted above. I resocketed and like the change.

From my testing on Dr. Boom and looking at mana ticks in regenFu I can say that mana regen on AM after clearcast is not 100%, but diminished (similar to priests mind control where it doesn't get out of 5SR during the channel). However following with cast time spell after any AM will get you out of 5SR immediately as was known already. Based on some math I've done with full talented clearcasting you get on average the following ammount of time out of 5SR (assuming .2 sec casting lag):

AM: 3.8%
AB spam: 0.1%
ABx3+AMx2: 18.0%
ABx3+AM+Scorch: 14.7%
ABx2+AM+Scorch: 17.0%
AB+AM: 36.8%

Another thing I found is that comparing ABx3+AM+Scorch and AM it's better to just cast AM if JoW is up on the boss. The reduced mana cost is significant enough that converting saved mana to use in AB spam is better used overall.

As much as mana efficiency is a nice thing, if we wanted mana efficiency we'd just wand everything. Mana left at the end of the fight does no good to anyone unless you're AB spamming, but then if you combine the total damage done of both AM and AB spamming I highly doubt you'll beat any of the rotations in my spreadsheet (33/28 or 10/48/3). And besides, AM already starts with low DPM, you really need to take serious advantage of the 5sr and judgement of wisdom to really have it do good DPM, and even then the DPS is just too low.

The whole purpose of arcane is to convert mana into damage. From my theorycrafting for full arcane with shadow priest/JoW in my gear I get 958 dps/35 mps for AM and 971 dps/45 mps for ABx3+AM+Scorch rotation, compared with 1293 dps/254 mps for AB spam. On a 7 minute fight you have enough for about 45 sec of pure AB spam. Note that this is in regard to full arcane spec, I'm mostly interested in making full arcane work for me, but it's interesting to compare to other specs from time to time.

It's not messed up the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond is just a multiplicative increase to the damage your crits deal, not an additive increase to the damage your crits deal.

That's still 1,25% higher then if it was multiplicative.

Just playing with numbers the closest I can get is 180.625
3*1.5 = 4.5 (base crit multiplier)
4.5*1.25 = 5.625 (spell power multiplier)
5.625+175=180.625

Going straight multi we get
1.75 * 3 + 175 = 180.25

Addative and we of course end up at 178%

Looks like somthing is off. At first glance I would say you miscalculated the crit multiplier, but arcane is such consistent damage it easy to be precise.

No matter how jumbled or convoluted, there is has to be some reasoning for a 181.5 crit multiplier.

If it's just straight multiplicative then it comes out to 180.25% as chase states above.

1.75 * 1.03 = 1.8025

But what if it's the application of Spellpower that's bugged? What if Spellpower is also being applied to the Metagem. So in the same way that Spellpower causes the 1.50 multiplier to become 1.75 it would cause the 1.03 to become 1.045?

1.75 * 1.045 = 1.82875


This still isn't the 181.5% being reported above, though I thought someone had claimed 183%?

edit:

Even if the Metagem is being added in before Spellpower takes effect that still only brings us to 179.5%.

I cannot find a way to come up with the 181.5% being reported above. So now I must ask for confirmation of the results. Anyone?

It is 1 + (1.5 * 1.03 - 1) * 1.5. First 1.5 is the spell crit multiplier, second 1.5 is the spell power. You can get the general formula if you check the Relentless diamond thread or the resilience thread.

I've looked over your posts as well as the posts from others..and have seen the 10/48/3 is the UBER RAID SPEC... yeah. i was full arcane for a while (month - month and a half) and found myself running out of mana far to fast. I know that you have said respecing is not an option .. but what if it were a minor respec, using some of the better benefits of Arcane with a touch of fire? I currently use 40/21/0

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...leria&n=Daewyn

i have as of yet to make my spellfire robe. (I opted to lvl my druid to raid boomkin ^_^) but with the build and my + spell damage + int and such often find myself in the 1-5 slot this would give you the benefit of arcane with the use of fireball being a viable option for your damage. I may be wrong but I don't see why 10/48/3 is so great when you lose the int = spell dmg and such. With what i have AM hits for average 1300-1800 Fireballs rarely less than 2700 and AB hits average 2200+ (these are non crit numbers)

What does "i have AM hits for average 1300-1800" even mean? I've got around 1200 +arcane damage when raiding (hey, I use it on trash sometimes for giggles and as a way of telling my tanks to stop losing aggro on silly things) and average ~760 per missile. Of course I have no supporting talents (10/48/3 here) but if you are getting more than double that output through some mysterious manner, I'd be amused to see how. Heck, here's a WWS of some trash that may be statistically unimpressive but at least shows what I mean.

Parse and read your own results please and if they are controversial then please provide links to actual data. Thanks.

With your next step of equipment increases, the tailoring stuff - there are very low stats on them - the scaling talents like empowered fireball (especially in combination with molten fury) can shine as well.
With lack of much spelldmg (eg starting 10 man raiding), 4x/2x should be better as proven in many posts before.
But the utility and damage output of deep fire for starting 25 man raiding until deep ssc/te (2 pieces Tirisfal Bonus..) is quite handy and AB spam isn't that strong at this point.

Just think of the DPM increase of pyromaniac and elemental precision, 6% isn't that bad at all.

An then compare it to the arcane tree, beside some instant pyros, arcane power (which will dump your mana pool even faster), there are only two relevant talents. Spell power and mind mastery, well it should be simple to get to your trainer, pay the up to 35g fee and respecc, try out what's suits you (and your gear) the best way - if you aren't quite sure about the spreadsheet results.

I'm sorry, but you're pulling numbers out of somewhere there. Unless those are with Arcane Power up, you're not getting anywhere near those numbers.

I specced 49/12 for Magtheridon yesterday (didn't go any further since too many people were gone for SSC). With around 1300 Arcane Damage buffed, I was hitting a tad under 1k per tick of AM, around 2200ish on AB and wasn't casting fireballs, but when I was 10/48/3, my fireballs were hitting for just around 3k non-crits.

Do you have substantiation for those numbers like WWS or something?

The whole int->Spell Damage only works when you've got low spell damage, but high int.

Mage 1: 400 int, 600 damage.

Mind Mastery adds 125 damage. Empowered Fireball adds 75 damage

Mage 2: 400 int, 800 damage

Mind Mastery still adds 125 damage. Empowered Fireball adds 120 damage

Mage 3: 400 int, 1k damage

Mind Mastery=125 damage. Empowered Fireball adds 150 damage.

After awhile it becomes very hard to add int without sacrificing tons of damage. Don't gem for intellect either while under the illusion that you get damage from it since 9 spell damage gems are still going to be more beneficial than 8 intellect gems (2 damage from MM).

It's not just empowered fireballs you're losing for mind mastery, it's 6% crit as well as other DPS talents. It just doesn't even come close to adding up to being worthwhile. Even with 2/5 T5 arcane/fire spec 33/28 comes on top because mind master just isn't good enough even with 500 int. And if you have more than 500 int, you need to start upgrading your gear from those 40 sta 40 int 30 damage blues to stuff with a lot more damage... Even with mind master high int items are simply not worth using in most cases compared to the high damage items you could get in their place.

The only thing mind mastery is good for is full arcane, but as already said by more than just me, arcane missiles is too weak and everyone know you can't just spam AB, therefore you need to use spells from other trees, in which case mind mastery is simply NOT good enough. Those points are better spent for 6% extra crit and 2% extra damage from playing with fire and 3 points in firepower.

When starting kara you should have the amount of spell damage to make mind mastery pointless or you're in for a rough time there unelss everyone know the instance perfectly and are willing to use consumeables. I seirously dunno if you can clear kara with 600 spell damage kind of dps on all your dps classes, especially if you're all first-timers there. Tailoring and heroics offer very good loot, in many cases (especially tailoring) much better than anything that drops until T5 and beyond.

I often hear the debate about int not being worth it but at least for full arcane it's a lot more valuable than some make it seem (no I'm not in the mood to reply to "arcane missiles is too weak" comment). First mistake you make is assuming that arcane mage has low int, 400 int is nothing. Next you have to realize there are many multipliers for int (gnome racial, arcane mind, kings) while there are no multipliers for spell damage.

To give this some concrete numbers, I have about 850 int/1100 damage raid buffed, which can sustain about 10 minutes of AM with spare mana for AB spam if JoW is available. In a situation like this int is worth about 0.8 damage. In general the ratio is between 0.8 and 1.5 depending on how long the fight is.