I'm very interested in the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond theory. It was mentioned that it increases the crit damage from 175% to 181.5% (assuming arcane mage using AM). In this example, the meta gem effectively increased spell crit damage by 6.5%, which is massive for a single gem slot.
Has anyone tested it with an arcane/frost spec, having both spell power and ice shards. I'm curious to know how many percent spell crit damage will be provided in this case.
Edit: Found a thread similar to this after back tracking on the posts here. Sorry for the post.
It increases your effective crit by 6.5% OF your CURRENT crit. So if you have 30% crit, it's like a 1.95% crit chance, which trasnates into a decent amount of crit rating/spell damage. Not as much DPS as fireballs/AM get from the 5% chance to 1/2 cast gem, but since very often you gain very little from 1/2 cast time due to GCD as arcane, I'd stick with the crit.
It increases your effective crit by 6.5% OF your CURRENT crit. So if you have 30% crit, it's like a 1.95% crit chance, which trasnates into a decent amount of crit rating/spell damage. Not as much DPS as fireballs/AM get from the 5% chance to 1/2 cast gem, but since very often you gain very little from 1/2 cast time due to GCD as arcane, I'd stick with the crit.
Either you're out riding a bicycle on the highway, or I am.
I thought it was critical DAMAGE and not critical CHANCE.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
People seem to forget the coefficient nerf when comparing mind mastery and empowered fireball, 1000 spell dmg doesn't equate into fireball getting 150 more. The coefficient nerf was 2% pr point in improved fireball, making empowered fireball only provide with a +5% coefficient increase -> 1000 spell dmg = 50 more dmg. When you have around 1k spell dmg your int is not 400, you'll be near 600 if not more raid buffed. I think I have around 670 and 1300 something arcane dmg. Let's be gentle and say 600 int, that translates into 150 more dmg.
Going by the formula Kavan posted, the relentless metagem would give 10/48/3 builds a crit intensity value of 216,3%, with an average hitting fireball of 3000 and 35% crit you'd get these numbers:
w/o gem
crits for 6300
w/ gem
crits for 6489
difference being 189 dmg which you will get extra 35% of the time = it's worth 66,15 straight dmg.
I may be off and captain of the failboat, but I've not seen the half cast time gem come within those numbers.
I already did the math, 3Xab-2Xfireball is better than fireball spam with 10/48/3. However 33/28 is superior to 40/18/3 unless you spam a 3-debuff AB A LOT (meaning NOT using the rotation and just spamming AB). AB spamming drains mana so much faster than anything else that the fights where you can do that are probably pretty rare, so I'd stick with 33/28 as the 3XAB-2Xfireball would be your main rotation which is the best with 33/28, and it's still doing more DPS with almost as much DPM if you do 2XAB-2Xfireball or fireball spam compared to 10/48/3 - however if you use that more than you use 3XAB-2Xfireball might as well spec 10/48/3 for the range and slightly higher efficiency.
I've been Deep Arcane (40+) since I hit 70 in one form or another since I didn't opt for Tailoring and AB x 3/Fireball x 2 is by far my favorite combo. I started with AB x 3/Scorch x 4 and even most recently tried a 49/12/0 with AB x 3 (or 2)/AM/Scorch with stopcasting and Quartz and just couldn't seem to get the DPS I was hoping for. If I had a Meta gem and the TLC, I think I would have squeezed quite a bit more out of that build, but right now my trinkets (Icon and Horn) simply favor the AB/FB rotation.
That's the one thing I noticed, though, each spec seems to benefit from a different set of trinkets.
The trinket part is definitely true. The Lightning Capacitor is probably the most important part that makes full arcane work very well, in general it will contribute on the order of 6-9% damage. I can imagine it staying in my repertoire for a very long time, similar to Wrath of Cenarius still being the best aoe ring.
What does "i have AM hits for average 1300-1800" even mean? I've got around 1200 +arcane damage when raiding (hey, I use it on trash sometimes for giggles and as a way of telling my tanks to stop losing aggro on silly things) and average ~760 per missile. Of course I have no supporting talents (10/48/3 here) but if you are getting more than double that output through some mysterious manner, I'd be amused to see how. Heck, here's a WWS of some trash that may be statistically unimpressive but at least shows what I mean.
Parse and read your own results please and if they are controversial then please provide links to actual data. Thanks.
I honestly can say i dont know how to use WWS (flame away) I could provide a SS of my combat log i guess and "What does 1300-1800 even mean?" It means raid buffed with a wrath of air totem these are my average damage numbers. I use wizard oil.. for me it is a constant. I'm always in the shaman group always have king/wiz/Motw/ AI/ I use Molten armor. Now honestly I don't know how every little equation works..I do know that as much good dmg as i do .. i also get a lot of "Resist" messages, *shrug* i was just A. trying to help, cause i understand hating to respec every time you need a minor "tweak" and B tryin to see why 10/48/3 was better as it would not allow me to post a topic of my own . But as you asked ill try and find some way of putting up data
I honestly can say i dont know how to use WWS (flame away) I could provide a SS of my combat log i guess and "What does 1300-1800 even mean?" It means raid buffed with a wrath of air totem these are my average damage numbers. I use wizard oil.. for me it is a constant. I'm always in the shaman group always have king/wiz/Motw/ AI/ I use Molten armor. Now honestly I don't know how every little equation works..I do know that as much good dmg as i do .. i also get a lot of "Resist" messages, *shrug* i was just A. trying to help, cause i understand hating to respec every time you need a minor "tweak" and B tryin to see why 10/48/3 was better as it would not allow me to post a topic of my own . But as you asked ill try and find some way of putting up data
Using WWS is as simple as typing /combatlog at the beginning of an instance clear/boss kill and /combatlog once again at the end of said event. It generates a wowcombatlog.txt file which you can upload to the WWS site for parsing.
If you want to save all of your logs, be sure you go into your /World of Warcraft/Logs directory and rename your current wowcombatlog.txt file something else (perhaps add a -date or -note to the end of it) else it will be overwritten.
It would better help us (and you!) determine your typical spell usage, resist rate, crit rate, etc rather than relying on just a 'my AM hits for xxx-xxxx' statement.
Here's our last Gruul downing. Average volley of AM does 1133.6 damage.
Wizard Oil, Adept's Elixer, Food, Misery, (CoS?). BM hunter and SPriest, no shammy.
I'm not sure why this parse is getting posted, COE does not help arcane damage. You still had 800-ish dps everything counted. A fire mage can do more than that unbuffed with no shaman and no bm hunters.
If anything, I don't understand why you have a 46% / 41% split on your spells, you should be able to spam 4x AB, missiles, scorch rotation the entire fight, which should be yielding considerably higher dps.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
From the presence and crit percentage on his AM, I'll assume he's interrupting on clearcasts to switch to AM. I actually like the parse to illustrate why that's not a good idea, assuming that I'm correct in the assumption.
I would also note that DPS in WWS for a fight with a bit of mobility and such can be misleading, as fireball DoT ticks all count as DPS time even where they really ought not to do so. As an example, this is a Gruul parse for me as a fire mage, no flask but oil/food up probably. It's old content for us so I wasn't exactly pushing it but you can see the "DPS" numbers are similar but I still produced 301k versus 223k in the same time period for the above arcane mage. Take that as you will.
I am not sure I get your point. Yes, fireball dot will cause a fire mage dps to show 'higher' dps time% than any other spec. But the very act of doing that will lower your dps since you are not actually dpsing during that time. As I said, unbuffed and unboosted you can get the same numbers from a fire mage, despise dots counting against your dps, but in favor of your dps time %.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
The main reason why I am not 10/48/3 is because I am not a tailor, and I attend enough raids to pick up T5 pretty fast. If I had the tailor set, I would be fire for sure. But the Tirisfal set is clearly an arcane set, looking at the set bonuses and the way the stats have been budgeted (Plenty of crit, very scattered hit , and spirit (more than I think is necessary but it couples in with Arcane Meditation well). As soon as the drops we are getting are not just competitive, but better than spellfire, I will no doubt go back to 10/48/3. Anyone who states that arcane is better than fire is for the most part wrong. To play arcane well it takes alot of skill, and at best can be competitive with fire. It's purely gear dependent - arcane blast will be your primary nuke and if it doesn't hit close to what your fireballs were as deep fire you will not be able to keep up with a fire mage. This is where 2 piece Tirisfal comes into play. Arcane missiles is a terrible primary nuke spell, it is too low damage per second and a long channeled cast.
To be effective as arcane you need to pack the apples into your bra, those apples being at minimum a shadow priest; without the extra mana pouring back into your pool you will not be able to throw in the extra Arcane Blasts needed to tip the damage meters in your favour. A shaman is almost nearly always required also for Wrath of Air, Judgement of Wisdom for your cycle reset arcane missles, and CoS (which you'd expect to be up anyway). Even with this, if you are smashing the fire mages (by over 2.5% I consider smashing) consistently on fights you may be good yes, but you should also look at the performance of the fire mages, they may be dragging the chain.
To be effective as arcane you need to pack the apples into your bra, those apples being at minimum a shadow priest; without the extra mana pouring back into your pool you will not be able to throw in the extra Arcane Blasts needed to tip the damage meters in your favour. A shaman is almost nearly always required also for Wrath of Air, Judgement of Wisdom for your cycle reset arcane missles, and CoS (which you'd expect to be up anyway). Even with this, if you are smashing the fire mages (by over 2.5% I consider smashing) consistently on fights you may be good yes, but you should also look at the performance of the fire mages, they may be dragging the chain.
I'd question anyone's knowledge on the subject if they said 'Deep Arcane requires a Shadow Priest and/or Shaman'. It doesn't. You can do perfectly fine without a Shadow Priest or Shaman in your group.
Arcane provides the fastest way to convert mana into damage. Neither Frost nor Fire come close in this department. This also means that you can run out of mana much quicker. So, not only do you minimize your mana usage, but you have to maximize your DPS while doing it. Again, this is something Frost and Fire don't have to think about to the same extent. The bonus is that Arcane Mages really don't have to worry about threat. With BoS, you're threat is reduced 58%. You can go harder earlier.
In the simplest terms (and here comes my generalization): A good Arcane Mage will maximize the number of times he/she can spam Arcane Blast without totally going out of mana and wanding for any period of time. Totally going out of mana is either using up/not having the luxury of: gems, pots, Evocation, VT, Mana Tide, Spellsurge, JoW, etc. Really, if you're playing your Arcane Mage right (IMO), your mana should hit zero or close to it atleast once a fight, depending. You just can't totally run out of mana.
I don't know if I like it or not, but it seems as though gear is determining the 'best spec' whereas it used to be the instance. If Spellfire/Spellstrike weren't so nice, would Deep Fire be as hands down as it is today? Probably not. If T5 didn't have the 2-piece bonus it did, would there be as many 10/48/3s trying Arcane? Again, I don't think so.
Is this by design to make sure we're not instance- or perma-speced as we were pre-expansion? No idea, just throwing it out there.
I'd question anyone's knowledge on the subject if they said 'Deep Arcane requires a Shadow Priest and/or Shaman'. It doesn't. You can do perfectly fine without a Shadow Priest or Shaman in your group.
Arcane provides the fastest way to convert mana into damage. Neither Frost nor Fire come close in this department. This also means that you can run out of mana much quicker. So, not only do you minimize your mana usage, but you have to maximize your DPS while doing it. Again, this is something Frost and Fire don't have to think about to the same extent. The bonus is that Arcane Mages really don't have to worry about threat. With BoS, you're threat is reduced 58%. You can go harder earlier.
In the simplest terms (and here comes my generalization): A good Arcane Mage will maximize the number of times he/she can spam Arcane Blast without totally going out of mana and wanding for any period of time. Totally going out of mana is either using up/not having the luxury of: gems, pots, Evocation, VT, Mana Tide, Spellsurge, JoW, etc. Really, if you're playing your Arcane Mage right (IMO), your mana should hit zero or close to it atleast once a fight, depending. You just can't totally run out of mana.
I'd question the knowledge of anyone who says an arcane mage DOESN'T need at least a shadow priest to do better dps than deep fire.
In order to out dps fire, an arcane mage must go to a lower DPM rotation (but higher dps obviously). Unfortunately, without a shadow priest and/or shaman, you're not going to have the mana to out dps a fire mage.
I'd question the knowledge of anyone who says an arcane mage DOESN'T need at least a shadow priest to do better dps than deep fire.
In order to out dps fire, an arcane mage must go to a lower DPM rotation (but higher dps obviously). Unfortunately, without a shadow priest and/or shaman, you're not going to have the mana to out dps a fire mage.
Another note, Salv+Arc Sub=.7*.6=.42=42% threat.
I'm not saying you can do better DPS than Fire without a Shadow Priest or Shaman. In fact, I didn't say anyone would. However, you don't need either to do well.
If doing well == beating Deep Fire to you, that's fine. But that's not what I was talking about.
And, read what I wrote again, I said reduced 58% not reduced to.
I'm not saying you can do better DPS than Fire without a Shadow Priest or Shaman. In fact, I didn't say anyone would. However, you don't need either to do well.
If doing well == beating Deep Fire to you, that's fine. But that's not what I was talking about.
And, read what I wrote again, I said reduced 58% not reduced to.
If you're doing less DPS than you would as fire, then there's no reason to spec Arcane, that was my point.
As deep fire, I've tried putting myself in parties without a shadow priest. I've trouble keeping up with the mana cost. I can't imagine playing an Arcane mage without a shadow priest. The shadow priest in my raid gives around 120 mp/5 each.
If you're doing less DPS than you would as fire, then there's no reason to spec Arcane, that was my point.
Sorry I missed the math, tired from work
Interesting point this brings up. If we're to assume Deep Fire includes Tailoring, which I don't have, then maybe I wouldn't do more damage as Deep Fire.
I don't really know the answer to that, though, you would think regardless of gear, Deep Fire should be better than Arcane or Frost. Perhaps to a lesser extent, though. Spellfire/Spellstrke is pretty min-maxed for 10/48/3.
Still, unless you're all about hardcore min-maxing (and certainly the audience of this forum supports that), Arcane played well isn't going to be *that* far off of Deep Fire (with Tailoring) overall.
Just to be clear, I'm not debating Tailoring + 10/48/3 > Arcane pre-T5. It is. It's just that there are viable options down the Arcane path.
I'm sure alot of people in this thread are reading it basically because they want to know if by speccing arcane they will be able to perform better than they are currently as fire. You will do terrible as arcane without a shadow priest and shaman compared to a fire mage in the same position, as in order to do more damage than a fire mage you need to burn more mana. It's simple math. Arcane may be fun when you are in the +600 spell damage range (say, when just starting Karazhan) as a 40/0/21 build or similar as arcane provides a nice stat pad, but other than that, fire will eat it until your gear really starts to come of its own.
To be fair though, later on Arcane may indeed be worth looking at again once you start seeing immunities on targets. I'm floating around that right now and I am definitely considering speccing for such reasons. It's not that I need to spec arcane for Al'ar or adds on fights or whatever, it's just that being a one-trick pony is limiting even when that trick is a pretty good one.
Let's face it, raid dps comes from a variety of sources and while as 10/48/3 I can be a significant source of boss target dps (and typically #1-3 in my guild), many fights are becoming focused less on sustained maximal dps and many classes are certainly better at that role anyhow should they want to spec and gear for the it. If I can instead provide low-threat high-burst dps with reasonable sustained dps, that's at the least an option to explore. I am far from yet convinced but I'm open to real data most certainly.
600 spell damage? Your average mage can get that shortly after entering outlands if he just tries. At 70 before crafting my stuff I think I had in the area of 800 fire damage already... And ~1000 after crafting everything and getting most of the heroic stuff and starting kara.
For DPS, I already said and I'll say it again - with my gear (which you can see on armory if I didn't just step out of a BG/arena which I don't do often), 33/28 would do extremely close DPS to 10/48/3 but would cost much more mana with the 3XAB-2Xfireball rotation without 2/5 T5, and will do significantly (8-9%) more DPS with 2/5 T5. 33/28 fireball spam also does extremely similar DPS to 10/48/3 which is independant of the 2/5 T5 set bonus obviously. A slightly better rotation if you do have 2/5 T5 is ABX2-fireballX2 which does similar DPS and DPM to 10/48/3, but if you don't have 2/5 T5 is quite inferior obviously.
All in all 33/28 is probably the best with 2/5 T5, but without it you'll simply do better with the extra range and DB/BW of 10/48/3, as your AB simply isn't strong enough. It has nothing to do with spellfire/spellstrike/etc as the difference in how both builds scale with gear is very minimal.
For 40+ arcane builds, the best I could figure out is 40/18/3 and it just underperforms 33/28 in every single way. Mind mastery is simply not good enough (assumed 500 int, but 600 int wouldn't change it most likely as 25 damage is slightly more than 1% DPS while the difference between the build is quite higher).
Here is the file again: http://fileho.com/download/b79468685264/mage.xls.html
Not the most user friendly because I made it to compare things to myself but it can give you the DPS of the different rotations with different stats quite easily.
Here is the file again: http://fileho.com/download/b79468685264/mage.xls.html
Not the most user friendly because I made it to compare things to myself but it can give you the DPS of the different rotations with different stats quite easily.
I've checked the spreadsheet and I have to say it's very basic. If you're doing comparisons by only comparing dps numbers you're looking at the wrong thing. The way you have to compare should include some encounter specifics, at the minimum fight duration. At this point what you should be looking at is total damage done. A major factor in this is starting mana pool and evocation efficiency, no wonder why someone would value int so low if you're only looking at dps.
From all the spreadsheets I've seen Vontre's is probably the best general purpose mage comparison tool. It's still missing some important things but at least you're able to compare all possible specs. I have a more specialized spreadsheet but it's fact-checked only for arcane and missing some important things to consider it general purpose (i.e. no water elemental). Main tools that I think important are proper total damage done optimization, selecting a mix of different spell cycles (in general given the most common constraints it should always be a mix of at most two cycles, Vontre's spreadsheet does this for special case of Arcane Blast). The next thing is the ability to optimize gear that's best for a given spec. My main complaint against most comparisons of specs is in regard to this part. Most say let's assume this and this stats and let's see what we get. I've done enough number crunching to know that choosing the right gear is at least as important as choosing a spec.
Arcane missiles is a terrible primary nuke spell, it is too low damage per second and a long channeled cast.
I'm going to have to call BS on that, I think everyone who says this has never invested points in empowered arcane missiles. On my alt mage my arcane missiles almost hit for a base of 1k fully raid buffed/debuffed (tested on Dr. Boom since I don't actually raid on that character). That is a base of 1k dps for the mathematically challenged, before factoring in crits.
Oh and yeah, for the arcane runs out of mana crowd, I tested this with a shaman/shadow priest/paladin (to get all of the mana regen that would be possible in a raid from mana spring, VT, JoW, BoW), and I managed to cast my AB/Arcane Missiles cycle for just under 6 minutes uninterrupted - using 2 mana potions and no evocation.
Still using 6 blues, and almost 1200 spell damage self buffed.
Edit: also using another comparison, I believe a fully talented fireball costs 437 mana (-6% mana). I have seen 3k thrown around as an average for a fully raid buffed fireball nuke, I don't know if that includes crits or not, but I will compare it to the average 1k AM tick that a fully buffed Arcane mage with good gear could probably expect.
Fireball is obviously going to get more out of crits, but this is also ignoring the fact that arcane missiles in an AB->Arcane Missiles rotation is going to get a lot more out of clearcast procs and the arcane potency talent. If Arcane blast procs a clearcast, you get +30% crit rate on the next arcane missiles and the spell is free. If the arcane missiles procs a clearcast, you get +30% crit on that arcane missiles, the next arcane missiles you cast is free, and I believe that arcane missiles will also receive a +30% crit buff. Combine clearcast procs with activating Arcane power and a trinket for devastating results.
For a deep fire build clearcast can be reduced to a -10% mana cost talent, maybe a bit more if you are on scorch debuff refreshing duty.
Arcane missiles is also going to proc effects without a cooldown 3x more often than a fireball, meaning debuffs such as judgement of wisdom become 3x more powerful, and set bonuses such as spellstrike or trinkets like the lightning capacitor are much more valuable to an arcane mage.
The only tangible disadvantages to arcane that I can see are the range issues, and the problems that are raised in fights that require mobility.
Last edited by DecimusGarona : 07/06/07 at 10:46 AM.
Reason: Inserted more theorycraft
07/05/07, 7:35 AM
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