Except they're also increasing the proc rate, if you have a 5% proc MSD with no cooldown, you get 1 proc every *60 seconds* with Fireball spam on average.
If it has a 10% proc with 30s cooldown, then on average it will be exactly the same, since it will take 10 casts to proc, and be inactive for 10 casts worth of time.
Unless they are putting some very harsh cooldown/not increasing the proc rate much on MSD then it's unlikely it'll be nerfed at all.
The crit gem, on the other hand, is horribly nerfed compared to the old RED, because the old RED used to be more like 6-8% increased crit damage, but they fixed that bug, so it will just be 3%, which means that you'll gain 0.(critrate) * 3% increased damage, which could very well be quite pathetic.
the nerf on MSD is unlikely to affect fire specs much, but has the potential to end arcane as a viable spec(T6 content +). I don't understand why blizzard feels the need to push all the mages towards specing arcane for the last 6 months, then want to put an end to it in 2.3.
Except they're also increasing the proc rate, if you have a 5% proc MSD with no cooldown, you get 1 proc every *60 seconds* with Fireball spam on average.
If it has a 10% proc with 30s cooldown, then on average it will be exactly the same, since it will take 10 casts to proc, and be inactive for 10 casts worth of time.
Unless they are putting some very harsh cooldown/not increasing the proc rate much on MSD then it's unlikely it'll be nerfed at all.
The crit gem, on the other hand, is horribly nerfed compared to the old RED, because the old RED used to be more like 6-8% increased crit damage, but they fixed that bug, so it will just be 3%, which means that you'll gain 0.(critrate) * 3% increased damage, which could very well be quite pathetic.
Well, I think the issue here was MSD with AM spam. It had a 5% to proc on initial cast + all five missiles, so effectively a 25%+ on every AM cast. With no internal cd I had it chain proc many times leading to crazy DPS numbers, although on average it procced once every 20 seconds (4 out of 4 AMs procced it). Of course, the number of procs increased when you stacked Haste gear, like Ashtongue trinket and passive haste gear.
What I'm *hoping* to see is a small internal cooldown (5-15 seconds) to eliminate the 'issue' of chain procs and to put a limit to the burst damage attainable with the spec. However, it would maintain full Arcane as very competitive all-round dps spec. Nerf to burst damage but still consistent damage especially with a higher % to proc. Of course we'de have to see the repercussions such change would have on things like Haste gear stacking.
What I'm *fearing* to see a long internal cooldown (30-40 seconds) which would cripple Arcane spec and basically ruin the AM-build, forcing us to go back to good old Fire or AB rotations. Would be very sad and bad for the class.
It really depends on the vision Blizzard has of mages in raids. I remember very clearly Kalgan stating that they intended Arcane spec to be not only a viable raid spec but the highest dps / lowest threat tree although mana consumption would also be highest. He also said Mages were right there with rogues in damage done. This was true with x2 T5 and AB spam. Like many mages, I thought the recent buffs/synergies to Arcane Missiles were the answer to this vision Blizzard had as AB spam is unsustainable and too much pigeonholed to x2 T5. Arcane Missiles, for two and a half years was a near-useless nuke, progressively nerfed. But the recent changes gave it new life. High sustained DPS, different gear choices than Fire, high mana consumption, low threat. Fire is getting a good buff in the with the removal of damage tax, and if the MSD nerf is big there won't be much to say...
I'm confident Blizzard *wants* full Arcane spec to be a fully viable choice, at the very least equal to Fire and perhaps still the spec of choice when high-end gear (Hit-capped, Haste, high stats) becomes accessible.
I hope it will be something short like 10 to 15 seconds. >_< Yeah, sometimes I get streaks of procs which increases DPS by a lot. Then sometimes it doesn't proc at all. If they increase the proc rate, where putting in a reasonable cooldown such that streaks are no longer possible. I think I would be ok with the change. >_< Everything depends on the cooldown. I hope its not too long.
Arcane Missiles, for two and a half years was a near-useless nuke, progressively nerfed. But the recent changes gave it new life. High sustained DPS, different gear choices than Fire, high mana consumption, low threat. Fire is getting a good buff in the with the removal of damage tax, and if the MSD nerf is big there won't be much to say...
Sigh, so sad. I perfectly understand why they might have to change the gem because of how amazing AM is at abusing its mechanics..
.. but as the recent posts show , Blizzard, mages are dying for alternate ways to do good dps rather than go fire. To echo another poster, im dreading having to go back to fire simply because its 'the only competitive dps spec'. We were all happily enjoying our arcane versatility...
I'm sorry but I never ever went arcane spec for 'versatility'. I go with whatever spec has the most DPS. I couldn't give a damn about the spec; as long as it pushes the best numbers. I like AM spam only because the DPS is there, (as well as not having to deal with restacking scorch and being less reliant on warlocks curses) but that was it. You can be god damn sure I wouldn't even looked at AM spam if it wasn't at least on par with fire spec.
What I'm trying to say is - I'm definitely not looking for an alternate way of doing DPS - I merely want my DPS to be competitive. Before 2.2 I believe the mage class was really not in line against hunters and warlocks in terms of DPS, but then again I guess everyone's perspective on the matter is different. Give us competitive DPS and I'll be happy.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Well, that's pretty much it. For months I felt like a second class citizen while rogues, warlocks and even hunters and shadow priests dominated the damage charts and we were always behind, except for certain fights where AoE was involved or short, bursty fights where AB spam was viable.
The sad thing was that the 2.2 buff did not make me feel overpowered...I just viable, normal, valuable - sustaining similar DPS to the other primary damage classes, at least casters. It wasn't overpowered at all, just the balance we've all been waiting for. Rogues and BM hunters are still way out of hand on most bosses.
That Arcane spec is fun and fresh is an added bonus to class who has been long been the same, at least in raids. Spamming purple Missile was like a purple Uzi or machine gun. Is just fun, apart from having raid utility. We hardly have Fire Mages / Fire locks in the raid now, and Warlocks are dropping CoE to put CoD, for example.
Is just fun, apart from having raid utility. We hardly have Fire Mages / Fire locks in the raid now, and Warlocks are dropping CoE to put CoD, for example.
Yeah, my guild is now built around SP's and affliction locks. It will be an up hill battle to get them to build the raid around Fire mages again.
What I'm trying to say is - I'm definitely not looking for an alternate way of doing DPS - I merely want my DPS to be competitive.
I want both. Im sick of fire after so long from aq->naxx and really do want that alternate (but equally viable) choice.
I hope blizzard balances/buffs arcane/fire specs to be similiar enough in dps performance so people can decide what spec to go for reasons including 'whats fun' and not simply 'because its the only spec that is viable vs other classes'. If suddenly arcane dps is not very viable and everyone feels pressured to go back to fire (or vice versa).. its a sad day for mage class design.
My guild is sort of hitting a wall in our raiding, and I'm looking to up my DPS in order to help. I'm deep Frost (2/0/59) and I usually end up getting around 10th on the damage meters. I'm not interested in switching fully to Fire or Arcane... I still want to use Frostbolt as my main nuke. I just want to know if I should drop some points into Arcane, or if I should just wait out 2.3 and hope the removal of the damage tax helps.
And if I need to drop points into Arcane, how many do I need to put in there in order to see some results? Or is it just a waste of time? I love Ice Block, Ice Barrier and my Elemental. I don't want to sacrifice all of that. I also know I need better gear. My staff is pretty underpowered. There's a few items (dagger/off-hand/trinket) that I have the ability to get now that will push me over +1000 bonus damage. So I'm working on that. I also know I need to get some non-PvP items, I just haven't had the chance to come across them yet (neck, belt).
I'm unable to get on ptr to test the MSD extensively, but the rumors I'm hearing of 30-45 cooldown would put a nail in the AM spam coffin. Has anyone been able to confirm the exactly length and proc chance change? I don't trust the official mage forums.
I fail to see how this is related in any way to arcane damage.
On a side note, you're basically saying you won't accept to cast anything else than frostbolts [because you love the advantages of ice barrier/iceblock/water elemental]. You already chose your stand. The question and following discussion will never reach a conclusion because you've set forth a restriction that invalidates your question. I'll be honest and say that with that kind of stand I doubt that whatever I recommend you will change anything to your decision.
And no, even if you could go for 40/0/21, which in my opinion is a bastard spec that fails both at pve and pvp, you would have less dps than deep frost.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I fail to see how this is related in any way to arcane damage.
On a side note, you're basically saying you won't accept to cast anything else than frostbolts [because you love the advantages of ice barrier/iceblock/water elemental]. You already chose your stand. The question and following discussion will never reach a conclusion because you've set forth a restriction that invalidates your question. I'll be honest and say that with that kind of stand I doubt that whatever I recommend you will change anything to your decision.
And no, even if you could go for 40/0/21, which in my opinion is a bastard spec that fails both at pve and pvp, you would have less dps than deep frost.
Sorry, I should have made it a little more clear. I posted in here because I figured my issue was whether or not Arcane would be worth it or not. I apologize for throwing it in here and not the other thread. My bad. I also realized I forgot to say I am willing to drop the Elemental or Barrier if need be. I'm just gonna start over in the other thread. =P
Well, I think the issue here was MSD with AM spam. It had a 5% to proc on initial cast + all five missiles, so effectively a 25%+ on every AM cast. With no internal cd I had it chain proc many times leading to crazy DPS numbers, although on average it procced once every 20 seconds (4 out of 4 AMs procced it). Of course, the number of procs increased when you stacked Haste gear, like Ashtongue trinket and passive haste gear.
What I'm *hoping* to see is a small internal cooldown (5-15 seconds) to eliminate the 'issue' of chain procs and to put a limit to the burst damage attainable with the spec. However, it would maintain full Arcane as very competitive all-round dps spec. Nerf to burst damage but still consistent damage especially with a higher % to proc. Of course we'de have to see the repercussions such change would have on things like Haste gear stacking.
Why?
Let's examine the *effect* overall of the MSD for Arcane Mages.
It *let's you compete with Warlocks* on DPS on raids.
That's *it*.
Sure it might chain 5 in a row, or it might not. But the overall effect simply allows Mages to compete with a class which is better in PvP, more desireable in PvE and currently outdamaging the supposed damage class.
Pretty sad they are nerfing the MSD for AM.
I've been playing/raiding ever since wow released in the US and rolled a mage.
Switched over to EU later on, in all that time the only time AM was 'viable' was on broodlord/dragons as a horde mage without any threat reduction at all.
Now it was finally working in top notch gear with insane mana consumption (we usually don't have jow) up and a bit of luck on the procs.
I wasn't winning dmg meters all the time, i was competing.... only on trash i could obliterate everyone cause of cooldowns and the opportunity to drink (which i did an awful lot).
I'm sure fire will be nice dps after 2.3 tho, it had it's moments before 2.2 and it's finally getting the well overdue 'buff' in the form of the dmg tax removal.
Manly i agree i would spec anything that will be the best dps, but you got to admit AM with MSD was fun and refreshing.
Different choices in gear and using proc items that are pretty damn bad for fire made it just something different after all this time of scorch + fireball.
I don't think the new 3% crit meta will be any good, RED in bugged form for fire was still worse than MSD.
If they really up the procrate on MSD it will make it better for fire, as you don't get that many procs anyways as a fire mage.
Thinking ill give Frost a go after the patch.
According to the theory craft page from Lhivera it shouldnt be so bad overall, especially with the new casting client to server sync with casting.
With my gear i get 1195 DPS for frost with Water Elemental Averaged as frost, and 1270 DPS With combustion and Molten Fury averaged for Fire.
Need to see how it pans out on the PTR first though, the MSD Nerf might not be that bad, hope to get over there and test at some point today if the char copy would work.
I'd like to see whether or not frost is more competitive too with this change. I'll be sad to see Arcane go down the drain but I have to say, making a spec viable by basing it on three items alone is absurd and not in concurrence with anything else in the game. If arcane is to be viable, I say, let them fix it in WotLC and make it properly viable. Not Club Arcane Pew (req: MSD, AToI, TLC, haste, S-priest & T6 to work). With arcane reduced to it's prior state of 2xAB,AM or 3xAB,AM,Sc rotations, It will perhaps still hold a minor advantage over fire but not as far far ahead as it was these last few months.
Does this mean that frost can slightly catch up? Because if frost is truly within 80dps of fire I for one wouldn't mind.
This has turned into a "i think"-chat, so i'll join after following this post for quite some time.
What I immediately thought when seeing the changes in patch-notes was that they're removing some of the insane amounts of dependencies AM-spam requires(AToI, TLC, MSD, JoW, Spriest, T6 etc).
I think Kalgan's "vision" is still there, but instead of getting the chain procs off MSD causing more procs off the trinkets etc etc and ending with insane numbers over short periods of time, a small cooldown on MSD will make for a more steady DPS with a rotation.
If we know that after a focus-proc there is a 10-15 sec cooldown up on MSD, those without the required accessories such as the trinkets, can safely switch to AB/AM-rotations and hence minimize the need for high JoW-uptime like we have now, without damaging their DPS to much. Then go AM-spam when the cooldown is off. This not only removes some of the dependencies on high JoW-uptime, but also things like TLC.
Off course, 2set T5 will still be highly recommended then, but depending on the cooldown it shouldn't be necessary, and if balanced correctly 4set T6 would be the upgrade it deserves to be.
Arcane will either way still be very viable, and the amount of short cast times and numbers of hits on targets makes us get value for the money on the number of bonuses and gear that has "on hit" at the cost of fire-builds range.
Does this mean that frost can slightly catch up? Because if frost is truly within 80dps of fire I for one wouldn't mind.
Vontre's with T6 level gear, the RoS neckie and spell power enchant says:
1835 DPS Fireball spam, 1560 DPS for Frostbolt spam. Waterbolt is 380 DPS.
Water Elemental uptime is said to have ~40% uptime for long fights, if it survives and gets an SP for mana.
Fire needs to keep scorch up, but can compensate that damage loss with [Flowing Flamewrath Cape] spam. Both specs have the same CoE multiplier (0%, 10% or 13%).
So, Fire seems to be ~18% more, perfect WE handling will reduce the gap to ~8%.
(Gear is not optimal because it has too much hit, but that shouldn't affect the comparison much.)
Edit: Buying info on the MSD change, paying with cookies! PST!
I have just tested the MSD with Arcane Misslies spam on Dr.Boom... on live server Gorefiend Fight I had 17 procs in 4mins... now on the PTR I had 4 procs in 3mins...
The shortest time between procs was 50sec.
I wonder If I just had bad luck or if the hidden Cooldown is really ~45seconds...
I have just tested the MSD with Arcane Misslies spam on Dr.Boom... on live server Gorefiend Fight I had 17 procs in 4mins... now on the PTR I had 4 procs in 3mins...
The shortest time between procs was 50sec.
I wonder If I just had bad luck or if the hidden Cooldown is really ~45seconds...
Does the gem's tooltip still state a 5% chance to proc or has this been increased? A 45 second cooldown seems way too harsh and 30 seconds would make more sense (duration of buff * 3). Either way I'll probably stay arcane due to my guild's raid setup.
I just switched from deep fire this past week. I'm our only mage at the moment so going back to fire would mean I'd have to deal with keeping scorch up all by myself again. I'd also have to deal with the fact that CoE is never up, but CoS is always up.
This week's Illidan I had 34 focus procs over a 16 minute period with 641 arcane missile ticks, if that were to be cut down to say 20 focus procs I still would have been top damage for the fight and I don't even have my lightning capacitor yet.
I really would like to see some actual stats. If MSD is that bad you can swap to new 12crit rating 3% crit which should be quite decent with clearcast critting with AM spam. LC and ashtongue/wrath trinkets are great with AM. Need to wait a bit people putting new items and changes to calculators and test them on PTR before announcing that sky is falling.
The tooltip just states "chance ..." no actual percent are given.
@Mulgero: This is the wws log of the fight Leia - WWS I can do more testing, but guess it will be the same.
And for the new Metagem, I wonder what requirements it has...
I'm curious to see what this machine gun AM spam looks like with all the trinkets/buffs/T6. The last arcane spec pve video Ive seen was with AB spam on lurker a couple months ago. Anyone have any videos laying around, so far its looking like I'm bringing my mage off the shelf thanks to the ret changes being such a let down.
10/11/07, 10:04 PM
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