Rouncer

Well, I can kinda understand the need for the cooldown. Really hate saying that since I have been loving the spec and I really don't feel overpowered.

I don't think that the issue is that what is happening now with the MSD and AM is overpowered, the issue is that the more haste you add onto your mage the more often you will see focus procs and the more often you see focus procs the more you will see additional focus procs.

Basically it is an exponential growth curve, and while not overpowered now, it will quickly get that way without a cooldown. Similar to what happened with the DST and WF totems and melee haste.

I really hope the cooldown is more like 10-15 seconds because that would seem to be enough to prevent that type of scaling. But if it really is 45 seconds then I guess I'll be speccing something else when 2.3 hits the servers and I'll just enjoy the Arcane spec while I can.

 

vaciador

A guy on PTR got the proc after 20sec.

 

Beska

Uhh? Any particular guy? Anything to back it up? Especially since somebody testing it for themselves earlier couldn't get any procs sooner than 50 seconds after the last.

 

Leialyn

@Rounced, more haste does not really increase the proc chance of MSD... since the chance is that high, it procs within 5secs after the cd is ready.

The trick with arcane missiles was to get proc chanches faster than global cooldown, but now this is kinda useless with the cd.

 

Vhad

I've a combatlog of spamming rank3 AM to see procs, I can't seem to get it to work with WWS to upload it for you all, but I did not get a proc more than 30 seconds apart, could be me being blind or suck at counting, I wish I could upload the report

Hmm, does it not combatlog information based on duels? I guess I'll have to go to area52

What!?

 

Leialyn

Maybe exit the game and try again?
If you can proove me that you got another proc 30sec after another, then this nerf wouldn't be so bad.

 

Vhad

Uh, yes it would be, it would be devastating to AM spec and it will be worse than frost.

What!?

 

vaciador

We did alot more testing now ourselves (nuubs trying before)
Never under 45sec
Probably 10% chance and 45sec cd..

 

Vhad

Yep, been sitting here at Dr. Boom with 3 other mages doing AM r3 too.

Vhadnow - WWS

Theres the report

Vhadnow - WWS
Vhadnow - WWS

Another report with rank10

Am I just getting lucky or are those dps numbers relatively high? AI and Mage Armor are the only buffs I'm using.

What!?

 

Cryic

So you had 620 hits (crits + normal) from 124 cast. 124 Cast would equal
744 chances to proc Focus in 2.2, at 5% = 37 procs. You had 13 in 2.3. Ugh.

 

Vonwen

I really don't get it, I don't think arcane mages needed a nerf. So basically if nothing changes we can all replace that metagem. 45 seconds is completely stupid :/

 

Worthe

13 is 10% of 124, though. Is it possible the changed the way AM procs effects?

 

Roywyn

The log showing only your gains:
Wow Web Stats

If you hadn't used AToI, it would be cleaner to read

Times between focus procs:
47s, 46s, 49s, 47s, (15 min break), 48s, 46s, 46s, 46s, 46s, 56s (?), 49s

Seems to proc very consistently, I'd guess something like a 50% proc rate and a rather obvious 45s cooldown. Previous reproc time was ~16s, now it's three times that.

For fireball spam, it's actually a buff, odd enough.

 

ebbv

A 50% proc rate seems very unlikely to me. It seems more likely it's 10% and still getting 6 chances to proc per channel.

As you say, a 50% proc rate would be a buff for Fireball spamming. And it would be a very odd mechanic for Blizzard to add a proc that can go off on any cast which has that high of a chance.

Though, that is an awful lot of 46s intervals, so I won't say it's not possible. It would just be really weird.

 

◊ manly

Alright then I guess this is where we stop talking about AM spam and begin a new thread
[Mage] How Can Fire Damage Work?

Although I am pretty sure such a thread doesn't really need to be there.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Roywyn

The character copy site is currently overrun, so it'll take a while until I can copy the gnome over.

The intervals very strongly hint a 45s cooldown.
All the reprocs were within 5s after the CD was up, and most of them were within 1-2 seconds.
This does indicate a very high proc chance.

If you have time, try this for me (Assuming the intial cast of AM can still trigger focus):
- Cast AM (rank 1 for mana perhaps)
- Jump immediately, before the first missile fires.
- Repeat that until you get a focus proc.
- Note how many cast-jumps it took you to proc it.
- Do something with the proc and wait 50s.
- Repeat that a couple of times (5-10 procs would be nice).

Take the average amount X of jump-casts it took you to proc focus (i.e. add them up and divide by the number of procs). The inverse 100%/X then is the proc chance.

 

Lhivera

Well, given the string of procs listed above, the average time to proc after 45 seconds was 2.82 seconds, which implies a proc rate of around 35.48%. Which seems an unlikely number, but it's a small sample. Maybe 30%?

Edit: that's assuming one chance to proc per second, but if AM has 6 chances to proc, then that's off.

 

Akron

Well, the increased proc chance means nothing for Arcane Missiles spam if the gem has a 45 second cooldown. With a higher % to proc it simply means Focus using AM will almost always proc exactly after the cooldown is over as the PTR tests show. Essentially, the DPS attainable with AM has now been capped. Less focus procs will also mean less Ashtongue trinket uptime, less TLC procs, less X4 T5 uptime etc. etc.

What we are waiting for is definitive numbers and results now on what will be the spec of choice and other questions.

A. Full Fire - x5 scorch, fireball, scorch every 27 seconds + repeat forever?

or

B. The old Arcane AB rotations? With Two spell rotations (including AB spam to burn mana)

And:

C. Full Fire and Meta gem: New caster version of RED or new MSD?

D. Haste gear. How much one point of haste = spell damage in Full Fire?

Indeed, migrate to another thread.

 

Rouncer

Would anyone on the test server mind just spamming Scorch and seeing what the proc rate really is?

Starting to get the feeling that, just like Manly said, Arcane is dead in 2.3 after you pass the T5 level. Such a shame, the concept of actually having 3 viable trees was really nice. Too bad Blizzard apparently disagrees.

 

Vhad

Well, considering the dps I reported from my rank10 sessions the dps still wasn't low so it could quite possibly still be decent? I guess it won't be when compared to fire though.

Another question, it might not be best suited here, will 33 28 be more viable since it won't be hit with the coefficient nerf even at high levels or will 10 48 3 trumph it?

What!?

 

Rouncer

Mind respeccing Deep Fire and seeing what kind of dps numbers it can output on Dr Boom now. Keep the same gear on so we can actually get an idea of how the 2 compare with after the MSD nerf.

Your parse does seem very high for that little MSD uptime so maybe they also played with the coefficient on Arcane Missiles at the same time or something to keep it competitive <finger's crossed>

 

WiPe|Domin

delete plz

 

Vhad

I will do so later Rounced, raiding at the moment since we sucked yesterday have to clear up Illidan, will do some 33/28 and 10 48 3 tests later.

What!?

 

Rouncer

Thanks Vhad.

Wondering if the spellcasting changes might be why your dps was so high as Arcane even without the current MSD functioning. If thats right then Deep Fire will be well over 2k dps.

 

Lgs

ok, all I can say is that I predicted this MSD nerf way back when it was discovered....

Is Arcane a dead spec at higher gear levels in 2.3?