Skytor

Bear Mitigation

All that follows assumes:
Level 70 vs Level 73 mob
Base Bear form hp of 12000
Tauren Druid
3/3 Thick Hide
5/5 Heart of the Wild
3/3 Survival of the Fittest



Formulas used are as follows:

Total bear form AC contribution = (Item AC+(Item AC*0.1))*5.5+2*(Item Agility *1.03)

Total dodge = ((Item Agi*1.03)/14.73) + (Item Dodge Rating/18.9) + (Item Def rating/2.4)*0.04

Miss chance = (Item Def rating/2.4)*0.04

Crit reduction = (Item Def rating/2.4)*0.04 + (Item Resilience rating / 39.4)

Final Crit Multiplier = (200-(Item Resilience rating / 39.4)*2)/100

Mob Crit = MAX(0,0.05-(Crit reduction/100))

Extra HP = ((Item Stamina*1.2*1.03)*10.5)*1.25

Armour damage reduction = (Bear form AC / (Bear form AC - 22167.5 + 467.5 * 73))
- source wowwiki

Total damage reduction = =1-((Mob Crit * Final Crit Multiplier + (1 - Mob Crit - 0.05 - Dodge%/100 - Miss%/100)) * (1-Armor damage reduction))
- source: Tank Points calculation at http://ctprofiles.net/forums/thread.ct?id=1043

Extra damage soaked = ROUND(((Base HP + Extra HP)/(1-Total Damage Reduction))-Base HP,0)
- source: Tank Points calculation at http://ctprofiles.net/forums/thread.ct?id=1043



Scaling:

I noticed that the *relative* value of stamina for life extension declines as base HP increases. Initially this seemed a little counter-intuitive. It is however correct extra stamina ADDS a flat amount of hit points; all other factors effectively MULTIPLY your life total by the % of damage avoided.

Here are some values:



Conclusion extra AGI > STA on a 1:1 basis after around 19000HP on a strict "damage soaked" basis.

Using the above formula, here are some item comparisons:



Note the following gear is either "old world" items you may have left over, or easily obtainable "new world" items – from quests and 5-mans. Where sockets are available, the item is listed with no gems and with a combination of the following easily available gems to obtain the socket bonus.


Head, Back, Boots, Rings

Not many great new choices for helms here, guise of the devourer still seems the best available

Both Bogstrok & the Quest reward Valient defender are an upgrade over elementium threaded, which was amongst the best of the pre-TBC cloaks.

The easily obtained supple leather boots are a nice upgrade over the previous two epic favourites – I have not seen anything else that gets close for a bear yet

Violet signet is an upgrading reputation reward; the other two rings are both upgrades over previous offerings

Additional rings:

Heavy Dark Iron – 1552
Signet of the Fallen Defender – 1833

Both can be upgraded with pre-70 instance drops

Gloves, Legs, Neck

Once possible upgrade to replace the awesome gloves of the hidden temple, may be worth using even better gems than the "standard" ones

A green quest item provides a very nice upgrade to the tricky legs slot

Necklace of the Juggernaut provides some incentive to collect those heroic tokens to druid tanks and the next best option is a quest reward.

Shoulders, Belts, Wrist, Trinkets

AB reward still worth using if you have it, otherwise annoy your rogues by grabbing the assassination shoulders (gems & no gems line got shifted around)

Manimal's Cinch, a green quest reward provides nice belt slot upgrade to previous choices

The excellent Umberhowls collar fills a longstanding hole in bear gear, giving us a decent choice in bracers (Quest reward)

It's somewhat disappointing to see no prospect of a trinket upgrade – I'm guessing armour on a trinket was considered a mistake not to be repeated.

Finally – Chests

The hellfire quest reward beats out ghoul-skin and the other quest rewards by a small margin

Enchants a selection of likely enchants listed for comparison

 

Plea

Your findings about stamina is a mathematical evidence to what we noticed empirically in the first days of raiding. Good to see it on proper calculation.

Another thing you might want to count in is, that avoidance stacks exponentially; while armor effect is constant, and stamina increase becomes obsolete after some value. Every next point of dodge is more valuable than the one before. If you make another chart for given avoidance values instead of hp, that should show this better.

That, in fact, is where the infamous 'warriors teh best tank we hav parry' claims point. We tend to believe that mitigation is king, hp comes from here and there.

 

tbone47

What about this cloak http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28256

 

Skytor

No idea wowhead just times out for me, post the stats and where its from please

The above list is mostly easy to obtain gear (quests, non-heroic 5 mans, easy rep gains)


(e) Scores an awesome 2990 - bet thats easy to get hold of :)

 

• Crowbite

Thoriumweave Cloak
318 Armor
+35 sta

 

Skytor

You are indeed correct that each point of dodge rating increases the value of the next point



(Using dodge rating as it does not generate the additional mitigation from AC that agility does)

The base numbers are:

 

Thorn

I'm relieved to note that its also possible to hit the 156 def rating target (assuming survival of the fittest) for an uncrittable bear from that gear list as well, and without resorting to core armor kits and the like.

 

Maratai

Not a math whiz: how do your numbers compare with Emmerald's?

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....04460564&sid=1

+1 Agi = 4.27
+1 Sta = 3.13
+1 Defense Rating = 2.96
+1 Dodge Rating = 3.13
+1 Resilience Rating = 1.73
+1 Armor = 0.52
+1 Health = 0.26

 

Kazanir

Using resilience is even better! ^_^

[13:07] <Kazanir> Vontre was responsible for Black Mesa
[13:08] <Vontre> Is Black Mesa some Half-Life thing?

 

Skytor

The three craftable heavy clefthoof parts - not included in the above version of the list have high sta, high def, no agility and disapointing armour values

I suspect a piece or 2 socketed for max def will make it very easy to push over the 156 def requirement

Resilience is an option for druids who enjoy, as that is where most of the kit with that stat comes from

 

Dakous

Is it my imagination, or is there a severe lack of items with perk armor? Don't get me wrong - the ones that exist, and their ease of acquisition, phenominal. But...is this being phased out, or am I/are we cursed to wear Manimal's Cinch, Supple Leather Boots, and Verdant Gloves forever? Looking over E's list, there are practically no perk armor items, and dodge/agility is heavily favored. Searches on Wowhead aren't turning up many upgrades (especially excluding PVP gear).

Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.

 

Quasar

Couple questions/points/comments.

Toss [Verdant Gloves] with the other gloves.

Stamina vs. Armor, or even Defense/Resilience and Dodge issues, I've accumulated a lot of good high-armor pieces you have on your list already but have difficulty using them over similar sta-loaded pieces. Obviously Stamina is more useful against caster mobs, but even on non-casters, I like having the high hit point count.

Examples:

[Cloak of the Valiant Defender] vs. [Devilshark Cape]
Some of the stats on Devilshark are obviously useless, but the dodge rating is nice (approximately 1% dodge at 70 compared to around 500 armor).

[Ash Tempered Legguards] vs. [Leggings of Unending Assault] (or X-52)
Armor or a boatload of Stamina and Agility.

[Manimal's Cinch] vs. [Burning Blade Devotee's Cinch]
Again, armor or stamina, crit, and hit (useful stats for holding aggro).

[Jerkin of the Untamed Spirit] vs. [Chestguard of No Remorse]
Armor versus stamina, crit, AP (holding aggro).

What are your thoughts on these?

JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?

 

• Crowbite

Each feral druid is going to have to find their own sweet spot. I've been finding in the instances, I'm mixing and matching pieces from my dps and my tank set to get decent mitigation and good threat at the time. If you find you are having problems with aggro, it may be time to switch out your high armor slots for a couple high dps slots to bring in more threat. Still, in my tanking set, I have yet to lose aggro to a boss that does any kind of decent damage.

 

Quasar

I rarely lose aggro (only on rough situations like a group of mobs that routinely drop aggro - gouge, knockbacks, fears), but I'm always concerned that just that little extra oomph will help in the rough times. I'm just really on the fence with mitigation via sta versus mitigation via armor versus other mitigation versus pure damage/aggro capability.

JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?

 

tbone47

Thoriumweave Cloak
318 Armor
+35 sta

Drops from Mechano-Lord Capacitus in Mechanar.

probably the best cloak for a druid.

 

• koaschten

[Vindicator's Armor Kit] (aldor revered faction pattern)

Ghostcrawler on the topic why rogues are hard to balance: >clicky<

Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy. Without a finite resource like mana, it's easy to analyze every possible move for its cost efficiency and ultimate damage delivery.

 

Liar

I didn't see it in the list, but how does [Cryptfiend Silk Cloak] compare to [Bogstrok Scale Cloak]?

Protection Warrior PvP video | Unexpected TankPoints error

 

Melthar

One quick boost towards being uncrittable appears to be going with 2pieces of the Grand Marshal's set. With the resilience on each piece, coupled with the +35 resilience 2 piece set bonus. Any 2 pieces would provide almost around 1.8% or more of the 2.6% anti crit you need, with the rest easily being covered between rings/neck/cloak.

My inclination is to go with the shoulders+legs in the blue pvp set. Including the socket bonus on the shoulders (but not a gem) that's 73 resilience. The chest and helm are also other decent options (verdant gloves outclass the set gloves however)

This also has the advantage that all of your anti-crit is concentrated in a small number of places, so if you need to switch over a few pieces for additional threat, you can do so without sacrificing the crit immunity.

I was looking at something like:

Umberhowl's Collar
Manimal's Cinch
Grand Marshal's Dragonhide Spaulders
Grand Marshal's Dragonhide Legguards
Guise of the Devourer
Verdant Gloves
Supple Leather Boots
Nickwinkle's Harness Experiment
Thoriumweave Cloak
Earthwarden
Strength of the Untamed
Iron Band of the Unbreakable
Iron Band of the Unbreakable
Mark of Tyranny
Smoking Heart of the Mountain

Before enchants and the gems in the shoulders we get:
4036 AC from gear (24417 with 3/3 thick hide)
155 str, 115 Agi, 357 stam (441 talented, 5.5k HP in bear)
30 AP, 525 Feral AP
42 Dodge Rating
77 Defense Rating, 73 Resilience (-3.1% chance to be crit, well over the 2.6 target)

There is the obvious head (CoT) and shoulder (Aldor/Scryer) enchants to further reduce this rate (and allow room to move elsewhere)

The one part thing that I feel is missing from this setup is hit rating for threat purposes, with crit and AP able to be boosted by buffs if need be.

 

Skytor

Some additional numbers regarding stacking AGI vs STA and the "exponential" scaling of avoidence



The STA/AGI numbers are a bit odd because i modelled based on my current gear

The first column shows the value STA or AGI, the second & third shows the extra "soak" generated by adding an extra point of either STA or AGI at that stat value

Unless explicitly shown the other values used in the model are:

Armor 3877
STA 317
AGI 263
Dodge R 24
Def R 66
Res R 14
Life 9365

Basically adding extra STA generates more "soak" up to around 750 sta or 675-700 Agi

They seem like unobtainable numbers

Considering a full set of generic "raid buffs" is 237 STA (or an equivilent of 353 with a flask of fortification), you would "only" need around 400-520 STA to start gaining more from AGI in a raid setting

Imp. Imp = 86
Imp. PWF = 102
Imp. MotW = 19
30 Sta Food = 30

 

◊ Yes

I've played around with a somewhat optimal bear tanking profile, and even if ctprofiles seems to be completely borked I came up with this: (Some things are not the best due to lacking enchants/sockets)
http://ctprofiles.net/5054874

Nordrassil is awful!
Also, there is an ENG trinket with 45 stamina which is quite nice, ie : http://thottbot.com/?f=a;loc=Trinket...;e=;sort=level

Enchant rings would look nice too.


I wonder what the itemization team was thinking when the very best tanking items for druids are green silly quest items

Also, I am certain that with raidbuffs the profile I linked would sit above 75% mitigation, allowing more stamina, dodge rating etc to be obtained.

My other main | My PvP Blog

 

Impowitz

No, you're wrong. Effective HP gained from stamina is not constant. That base HP that you're multiplying by avoiding damage? The HP from sta is also multiplied. (Base HP + STA HP) * avoidance, not (Base HP * Avoidance) + STA HP, as your charts assume.

The more mitigation you have, the better STA is, and the more STA you have, the better mitigation is.

 

• Exewut

[Stylin' Purple Hat]
How about this helmet?
Wouldn't the agility and stamina on this hat be better than guise of the devourer?

[e] link doesn't seem to work.
Stylin' Purple Hat
Binds when equipped
Head Leather
232 Armor
+48 Agility
+45 Stamina
Requires Level 69

 

• Lurchington

Sounds analogous to crit and attack power

 

Meddler

I don't suppose anyone yet knows where to acquire this trinket from ? http://www.thottbot.com/?i=60198

36 Stam and a use function that reduces hits by 68 to a max of 1100 over 15 secs. Solidly outperforms Smoking Heart in my book.

Thott/Alla/Wowhead are all reporting it as having been seen in live so I don't believe it's been removed since beta, haven't been able to find any actual info on where it drops though. Hazarding a guess probably one of the heroic mode dungeons given it's a level 70 blue and pretty nice, confirmation and knowledge of which one would be great though.