This springs back to the way Blizzard itemizes us. There's a very small handful of items with Resilience that are actually worth considering for tanking in the long run. The PvP gear is chocked full of useless stats that degrade it's PvE value for "main-anything" And once you move into Heroics/Raiding the blue resilience items can't compare with the epic defense ones. There's a couple exceptions, but not enough to make resilience more than a supplementary stat.
There's also No +armor on gems at all or +resilience gems outside of a couple unique epics.
Gladiator's Dragonhide Helm
Head Leather
323 Armor
+29 Strength
+17 Agility
+39 Stamina
+16 Intellect
Meta Socket (Powerful Earthstorm Diamond, wanted to use the def gem but it has too many reguirements)
Yellow Socket (Sublime Mystic Dawnstone, +10 Resilience)
Socket Bonus: +2 Resilience Rating
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 21.
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 37.
[enchanted with Glyph of the Defender: +16 def rating, +17 dodge rating]
+
Gladiator's Dragonhide Spaulders
Shoulder Leather
302 Armor
+25 Strength
+15 Agility
+30 Stamina
+10 Intellect
Red Socket (Beaming Fire Opal, Dodge Rating +5 and Resilience Rating +4)
Yellow Socket (Enduring Talasite, +4 Defense Rating and +6 Stamina)
Socket Bonus: +3 Resilience Rating
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 16.
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 22.
[enchanted with Greater Inscription of the Knight: +15 def rating, +10 dodge rating]
and you get the set bonus:
(2) Set: +35 Resilience.
For a total of 91 resilience and 35 defense rating. Voila, crit immunity from 2 items. And you wouldn't even need to socket it to this extent even if you have the Violet SIgnet/Earthwarden or another item with some defense/resilience. Also these 2 are some of the highest armor items for these slots.
So my questions are which items do I want to wear and when? And what gems, if I end up wearing the vest, would be the most appropriate - +stam, +agi, or +def? I can swap out the Thoriumweave and get two dawnstones and a talasite for the vest to compensate - with the empty vest and Thoriumweave, I have +138 rating, 12499hp, 21952 armor unbuffed - but I also don't want to gimp my HP and/or armor rating chasing the almighty uncrittable spec.
Firstly, if you haven't sold the Jerkin of Untamed Spirit, it's easily a better choice than Ghoul Skin. You're losing 21 caster AC for 22 Agi (defensive stats) Chestguard of the Talon is another item along similar lines that can be worth considering as well if that's the path you want to take for the chest.
However, Personally I'd lean towards Heavy Clefthoof with the sockets making up for any missing rating. Having recently dropped my AC to gain some dodge, sitting on just over 20k unbuffed AC still soaks most blows nicely.
Looking at the armory profiles, and seeing what people are wearing, there seems to be a few choices out there, that seem good at first glance, but overall aren't optimal when sockets and other gear are taken into account. A few that spring to mind:
Argussian Compass vs Timelapse Shard vs Adamantine Figurine
Ignoring the "on use" compoenent, Argussian loses here based on raw value. To obtain 36 stam, only takes 3 sockets, but 32 defense would be 4 sockets, the 23 resilience from Timelapse is worth over 2 sockets along with just over 2 sockets for the stam. If you're socketing any of your gear with defense/resilience, and using an Argussian compass, you're better off picking up one of these trinkets and resocketing with stam.
12 Stam vs 12 Agi to boots
1 socket vs 1.5 sockets worth of value. If you're socketing agi on your gear, but have stam enchant on your boots, you're not getting full value:
6stats vs 150HP to chest (or 8 stam armor kit)
After talents and kings, 6 stats to chest gives ~102 HP (6*1.2*1.03*1.25*1.1) along with 0.4% dodge. That 50HP difference can be made up with 3 stam (1/4 of a socket) elsewhere whilst providing 6 agi (3/4 of a socket) in exchange.
8Stam Armor kit vs 15agi to gloves
3/4 socket vs almost 2 sockets.
[b]Heavy Clefthoof Leggings vs Nomad's Leggings[b]
(as mentioned earlier in the thread)
33Agi from Nomad's = ~2.25% dodge.
34 defense rating, socketed with 2*4agi+6stam and 1*8defense gem gives combined dodge+miss of ~2.15% along with 0.7% anti-crit, and an extra 5stam in exchange for 66AP
Obviously some of it's based upon availabilty/cost, and how much you value offensive stats but I'm curious if there's any other 'obvious' choices that aren't necessarily the best.
Going back to this point about resilienece (theoretically) being better than defense to achieve crit immunity. Can anyone confirm that the - chance to be crit from defense and resil stack, additively without any extra complication. For example could you get 66 defense rating for -1% crit and 63 Resil rating for -1.6% crit, which added together with SoTF would give you the -5.6% for crit immunity?
I've been searching for an answer to this and there's some conflicting theories, the most common being that there's 2 rolls to determine if you get crit, if you fail the roll on defense then it then rolls against your resilience to determine if you can avoid a crit through that. If that's the case then with 66 def and 63 resil (+SotF) you'd have a 1.6% (5.6 - 3 - 1) chance to be crit from the first roll, say 1-16\1000, if you get a crit roll then it then checks your resilience (which gives -1.6%) and then rolls again, with 17-1000\1000 being a crit (?). Or would the 2nd roll be more like the first, ie standard chance to crit - resil - SotF = 5.6 - 1.6 - 3 = 1-1\100 being a crit?
Neither of these scenarios seem very likely to me tbh. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Pretty sure they stack additively, i was running around for a while with the ring from Ramparts http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24151, with the rest of my items defence and I was not getting crit at all.
Here's a question. I personally don't view the tier set as all bad for tanking. Wonderful stuff for kill the first add on mag then dpsing. I'll make sure I log off tomorrow with my tanking gear.
I have the wastewalker shoulders and the tier 4 shoulders. I consider the tier 4 helm an upgrade and I'll likely get the chest piece for the armor upgrade and it's socket ability (currently using warden's chest with 3 +12 sta gems.) Now at this point I've got 3/5 and need one more for that nice 4 set bonus. Do I consider trading my Verdant gloves or my heavy Clefthoof Leggings with 1 +8def and 2 +4def and 6Stam gems for the armor bonus.
Originally Posted by missiletoad
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
I would like the 4pc, my plan was helm, pants, gloves, shoulders. The gloves are a downgrade in armor, but the set bonus makes it up (I wouldn't wear the gloves till 4pc.) The chest wasn't that good, unless I'm missing something.
I think it is reasonable to replace your weakest slots with tier gear, and the tier gear is not at all bad to have. While I'm not too thrilled about the int/spi itemization I do have many fights where shifting often is useful and the int/spi helps on those fights. I don't consider the stats as tanking, but rather, raiding oriented.
Examples from SSC: Morogrim I usually pop mana pots if I get a few graves in a row, since I can still heal myself even when my bandage timer goes down. Popping out to innervate, battle rez, all cost large amounts of mana and the caster stats make that much easier. Karathress after my add dies (I tank the hunter and his pet) I toss my rez and innervate then go dps for a good solid 4-ish minutes of the remainder of the fight.
I don't think blizz meant us to main tank raid instances. Druids are the perfect offtanks, because even after our add is dead we are still much better DPS and have much more utility than a warrior in a tank spec/gear. By giving our tier set dps stats and int/spi for those roles we still need mana for, they don't completely gimp us after our add dies. You may not agree with the way it was itemized, but I think that's the core reasoning behind the stats on the tier sets.
What I personally would like to see is a bump up in armor, and a bit more stamina on them. Drop a couple stats lower (the spi can just go. We aren't innervating ourselves in this set.) I'm just annoyed that the warriors are topping me in HP values.
Now add the armor bonus from the 4 piece set and you have 2447.2 armor. So by switching the gloves, I lose 3.75 sta and 1% dodge for 718 armor and 12 atk power. Think this is worth the switch?
Originally Posted by missiletoad
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
Now add the armor bonus from the 4 piece set and you have 2447.2 armor. So by switching the gloves, I lose 3.75 sta and 1% dodge for 718 armor and 12 atk power. Think this is worth the switch?
Erm ... First off, Verdant Gloves are 2161 armor in bear with thick hide, t4 gloves are 1309. So it's 1% Dodge and 3.75 sta vs 548 armor and 12 AP. That's pretty much an even tradeoff.
However, look at your other option, legs.
Heavy Clefthoof Leggings
251 armor = 1380 in bear I'll go with Living Rubies since you can afford to lose the defense (why are you 54 defense over what's needed anyway?) 42 Sta, 24 Agi, 34 Def
Greaves of Malorne
342 armor = 1881 in bear
33 Sta 28 Agi 76 AP
Counting 4 piece bonus, you gain 1901 armor, .28% Dodge vs 9 Sta 34 Def. Mind you, you don't even need that defense, if you do want the defense for avoidance then you can safely switch your Verdant with Wastewalker gloves or Manimals with Dunewind without losing armor and end up gaining Sta and even more Dodge.
Erm ... First off, Verdant Gloves are 2161 armor in bear with thick hide, t4 gloves are 1309. So it's 1% Dodge and 3.75 sta vs 548 armor and 12 AP. That's pretty much an even tradeoff.
However, look at your other option, legs.
Heavy Clefthoof Leggings
251 armor = 1380 in bear I'll go with Living Rubies since you can afford to lose the defense (why are you 54 defense over what's needed anyway?) 42 Sta, 24 Agi, 34 Def
Greaves of Malorne
342 armor = 1881 in bear
33 Sta 28 Agi 76 AP
Counting 4 piece bonus, you gain 1901 armor, .28% Dodge vs 9 Sta 34 Def. Mind you, you don't even need that defense, if you do want the defense for avoidance then you can safely switch your Verdant with Wastewalker gloves or Manimals with Dunewind without losing armor and end up gaining Sta and even more Dodge.
Honestly because I mis-read my defense as defense rating. Thanks for the easy choice of dropping the legs.
Also, I'm seeing what I'm doing wrong now when looking at my gear. God do I feel stupid now.
Originally Posted by missiletoad
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
I'm curious if anyone has tried to maximize the amount of agility you can get from level 70 items with random enchantments on them. I did a rough estimate from all the "of agility" items, and 2 trinkets with dodge rating on them, and got to about 90% dodge fully enchanted, buffed and full consumable use. If you used "of the monkey" items, you would only have about +600 agility from gear, but also +900 stamina, and roughly 11000 armor in bear form
Sadly I accidentally erased my data before I posted it, but it shouldn't be too hard to recreate.
http://ctprofiles.net/3769940 with Wastewalker pants instead of nomad. (I'm sure there's some 'of agility' items I could have taken for higher dodge). Unlisted is 11 Sockets and 136 dodge rating. 497 + 88(sockets) + 18 + 88 + 35 + 15 + 25 + 20 = 786 * 1.1 = 864 Agility = 58.58% Dodge + 193/18.9 = 68.79 + 91/2.4/25*2 + 5 = 76.82% Avoidance + click for another 14.29 = 91.11% woo! That's Mark, GoA, Elixir, Mastery, Ground Scorpok, Food, and then Kings. Throw on darkmoon and hakkar heart if you want a bit more.
So anyway, I've been doing a bit more research into it.
Tauren: +64 (-37.8 DR)
Helm: Emerald Beholder's Eye of Agility +60
Neck: Tanzanite Pendant of Agility +32
Shoulders: Dragonhawk Shoulderguards of Agility +42
Back: Illdari Cloak of Agility +33
Chest: Warden's Hauberk +63
Wrists: Ravager Wrist-Wraps of Agility +37
Hands: Wastewalker Gloves +48
Waist: Lurker's Grasp +50
Legs: Skulker's Greaves +52 (+24 DR)
Feet: Glider's Boots of Agility +50
Finger1: Amber Band of Agility +32
Finger2: Delicate Eternium Ring +25 (+16 DR)
Trinket1: Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch (+34 DR)
Trinket2: Frostwolf Insignia Rank 6 (+24 DR)
Weapon: Halaani Hammer of Agility +56
Head: Glyph of the Defender (+16 DF +17 DR)
Shoulder: Greater Inscription of Warding: (+15 DR +10 DF)
Back: Greater Agility +12
Chest: Exceptional Stats +6
Wrists: Major Defense (+12 DF)
Hands: Superior Agility +15
Legs: Nethercleft Leg Armor +12
Feet: Dexterity +12
Finger1: Stats +4
Finger2: Stats +4
Weapon: Major Agility +35
Improved Mark of the Wild +18
Improved Grace of Air Totem +88
Elixir of Major Agility +35
Elixir of Mastery +15
Ground Scorpok Assay +25
Warp Burger +20
Flask of Fortification (+30 DF)
2/5 Moonglade Set Bonus (+35 DR)
Feral Swiftness (+75.6 DR)
Agility: 945
Dodge Rating: 202.8 (10.73% Dodge)
Defense Rating: 68 (28 Defense = +.53% Dodge and Miss vs +3 mobs)
Base Miss: 5%
Blessing of Kings +10%
Spirit of Zandalar +15%
Survival of the Fittest +3%
As an aside which is really just being perdantic - +4 stats on ring is an enchant which you need reputation with scale of the sands for, and seeing as no-one has killed Kael yet it's not a reputation that is available as such, therefore shouldn't be counted :p
I also think you could adapt that set of gear so you end up with some decent items. i.e. Malorne shoulders are 24 base agility, with 2 gems slots. That means 40 agility with 2x8 gems, which is 2 off the theoritical maximum, but actually gives you some stamina too. I'm pretty sure there are a few other items in that list you could find good alternatives to that wouldn't leave you with that little health buffed.
Actually, looking through the list of items available on Wowhead, I'm not sure I can actually find anything that's got as much dodge (total), or close to, and still has decent other stats.
edit: Thinking about it, alchemists stone should be almost as good as the Frostwolf/Stormpike trinket for dodge and gives the rest of the stats too - and it's a stat rather than DR base, so BoK/etc affect it, would should actually make it better I think.
Assuming the rounding is at the end of the multiplication, Alchemists Stone wins by .03%. Since I'm already over by 2.89% I don't really care much. Also dropping the ring Enchants and being Scryer instead of Aldor for shoulders doesn't matter much in the end.
What would happen if you equip that gear, would you dodge 100% of the time? Or is it safe to assume that there is some hard cap of avoidance you can get per roll? (For the first roll that is, block can obviously hit 100%)
Well, we know that with over 100% Dodge you can still get Parry/Miss (Rogues with over 50% Popping evasion proved this). 2 items to go and a ZG run, and I'll let you know. Fraps and all
You are most definetaly *NOT* crazy. This trinket not only survived the % to rating change, but it doesnt suffer from the proc cooldown that many trinkets have these days. Considering it's rather long uptime (1minute), if you are a multi-mob tanking maniac like myself on my druid, you can have +25 to all stats for a really, really obscene % of time.
The question is... is it worth using over OTHER trinkets that are around?
Looking at the armory profiles, and seeing what people are wearing, there seems to be a few choices out there, that seem good at first glance, but overall aren't optimal when sockets and other gear are taken into account. A few that spring to mind:
Argussian Compass vs Timelapse Shard vs Adamantine Figurine
Ignoring the "on use" compoenent, Argussian loses here based on raw value. To obtain 36 stam, only takes 3 sockets, but 32 defense would be 4 sockets, the 23 resilience from Timelapse is worth over 2 sockets along with just over 2 sockets for the stam. If you're socketing any of your gear with defense/resilience, and using an Argussian compass, you're better off picking up one of these trinkets and resocketing with stam.
12 Stam vs 12 Agi to boots
1 socket vs 1.5 sockets worth of value. If you're socketing agi on your gear, but have stam enchant on your boots, you're not getting full value:
6stats vs 150HP to chest (or 8 stam armor kit)
After talents and kings, 6 stats to chest gives ~102 HP (6*1.2*1.03*1.25*1.1) along with 0.4% dodge. That 50HP difference can be made up with 3 stam (1/4 of a socket) elsewhere whilst providing 6 agi (3/4 of a socket) in exchange.
8Stam Armor kit vs 15agi to gloves
3/4 socket vs almost 2 sockets.
[b]Heavy Clefthoof Leggings vs Nomad's Leggings[b]
(as mentioned earlier in the thread)
33Agi from Nomad's = ~2.25% dodge.
34 defense rating, socketed with 2*4agi+6stam and 1*8defense gem gives combined dodge+miss of ~2.15% along with 0.7% anti-crit, and an extra 5stam in exchange for 66AP
Obviously some of it's based upon availabilty/cost, and how much you value offensive stats but I'm curious if there's any other 'obvious' choices that aren't necessarily the best.
Along these lines, look at the bracer enchants. I think in terms of "socket worth" the +defense to bracers is the way to go. Yeah, its not as good as stam or stats, but if you are socketing anything with defense ....
I have a question regarding socket bonus from Breastplate of Malorne.
It's worth socketing it with Shifting Nightseye (4 Agility/6 Stamina) instead of Solid Star of Elune (12 Stamina) just for socket bonus (4 Hit Rating)?
This being the "Tanking Thread" it depends when there's a yellow gem also in question. Unless you need more defense, a yellow slot is currently better off with 12 Sta in it so you'll have already lost the set bonus. But if you're already using the yellow for defense, getting 4 agi (nightseye) 4 hit (set bonus) at the cost of 6 Sta is worth it
03/25/07, 6:09 PM
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