Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Class Mechanics

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01/30/07, 2:02 PM   #16
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
koaschten's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
Originally Posted by Thorn
I'm relieved to note that its also possible to hit the 156 def rating target (assuming survival of the fittest) for an uncrittable bear from that gear list as well, and without resorting to core armor kits and the like.
[Vindicator's Armor Kit] (aldor revered faction pattern)

How to get an Android Authenticator on your PC. (updated feb'11)

Germany Offline
Old 01/30/07, 2:08 PM   #17
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
Tyvi's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
I didn't see it in the list, but how does [Cryptfiend Silk Cloak] compare to [Bogstrok Scale Cloak]?


Offline
Old 01/30/07, 8:06 PM   #18
Melthar
Piston Honda
 
Melthar's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Frostmourne
One quick boost towards being uncrittable appears to be going with 2pieces of the Grand Marshal's set. With the resilience on each piece, coupled with the +35 resilience 2 piece set bonus. Any 2 pieces would provide almost around 1.8% or more of the 2.6% anti crit you need, with the rest easily being covered between rings/neck/cloak.

My inclination is to go with the shoulders+legs in the blue pvp set. Including the socket bonus on the shoulders (but not a gem) that's 73 resilience. The chest and helm are also other decent options (verdant gloves outclass the set gloves however)

This also has the advantage that all of your anti-crit is concentrated in a small number of places, so if you need to switch over a few pieces for additional threat, you can do so without sacrificing the crit immunity.

I was looking at something like:

Umberhowl's Collar
Manimal's Cinch
Grand Marshal's Dragonhide Spaulders
Grand Marshal's Dragonhide Legguards
Guise of the Devourer
Verdant Gloves
Supple Leather Boots
Nickwinkle's Harness Experiment
Thoriumweave Cloak
Earthwarden
Strength of the Untamed
Iron Band of the Unbreakable
Iron Band of the Unbreakable
Mark of Tyranny
Smoking Heart of the Mountain

Before enchants and the gems in the shoulders we get:
4036 AC from gear (24417 with 3/3 thick hide)
155 str, 115 Agi, 357 stam (441 talented, 5.5k HP in bear)
30 AP, 525 Feral AP
42 Dodge Rating
77 Defense Rating, 73 Resilience (-3.1% chance to be crit, well over the 2.6 target)

There is the obvious head (CoT) and shoulder (Aldor/Scryer) enchants to further reduce this rate (and allow room to move elsewhere)

The one part thing that I feel is missing from this setup is hit rating for threat purposes, with crit and AP able to be boosted by buffs if need be.

Offline
Old 01/31/07, 9:56 AM   #19
Skytor
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Aggramar (EU)
Some additional numbers regarding stacking AGI vs STA and the "exponential" scaling of avoidence



The STA/AGI numbers are a bit odd because i modelled based on my current gear

The first column shows the value STA or AGI, the second & third shows the extra "soak" generated by adding an extra point of either STA or AGI at that stat value

Unless explicitly shown the other values used in the model are:

Armor 3877
STA 317
AGI 263
Dodge R 24
Def R 66
Res R 14
Life 9365

Basically adding extra STA generates more "soak" up to around 750 sta or 675-700 Agi

They seem like unobtainable numbers

Considering a full set of generic "raid buffs" is 237 STA (or an equivilent of 353 with a flask of fortification), you would "only" need around 400-520 STA to start gaining more from AGI in a raid setting

Imp. Imp = 86
Imp. PWF = 102
Imp. MotW = 19
30 Sta Food = 30

Offline
Old 02/01/07, 2:43 AM   #20
Yes
Bald Bull
 
Yes's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dragonmaw
I've played around with a somewhat optimal bear tanking profile, and even if ctprofiles seems to be completely borked I came up with this: (Some things are not the best due to lacking enchants/sockets)
http://ctprofiles.net/5054874

Nordrassil is awful!
Also, there is an ENG trinket with 45 stamina which is quite nice, ie : http://thottbot.com/?f=a;loc=Trinket...;e=;sort=level

Enchant rings would look nice too.


I wonder what the itemization team was thinking when the very best tanking items for druids are green silly quest items

Also, I am certain that with raidbuffs the profile I linked would sit above 75% mitigation, allowing more stamina, dodge rating etc to be obtained.


Offline
Old 02/01/07, 3:46 AM   #21
Impowitz
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warlock
 
Kil'Jaeden
I noticed that the *relative* value of stamina for life extension declines as base HP increases. Initially this seemed a little counter-intuitive. It is however correct extra stamina ADDS a flat amount of hit points; all other factors effectively MULTIPLY your life total by the % of damage avoided.
No, you're wrong. Effective HP gained from stamina is not constant. That base HP that you're multiplying by avoiding damage? The HP from sta is also multiplied. (Base HP + STA HP) * avoidance, not (Base HP * Avoidance) + STA HP, as your charts assume.

The more mitigation you have, the better STA is, and the more STA you have, the better mitigation is.

Offline
Old 02/01/07, 4:02 PM   #22
Exewut
Soda Popinski
 
Exewut's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Al'Akir (EU)
[Stylin' Purple Hat]
How about this helmet?
Wouldn't the agility and stamina on this hat be better than guise of the devourer?

[e] link doesn't seem to work.
Stylin' Purple Hat
Binds when equipped
Head Leather
232 Armor
+48 Agility
+45 Stamina
Requires Level 69

Belgium Offline
Old 02/01/07, 4:48 PM   #23
Lurchington
King Hippo
 
Lurchington's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Impowitz
The more mitigation you have, the better STA is, and the more STA you have, the better mitigation is.
Sounds analogous to crit and attack power

Offline
Old 02/01/07, 9:53 PM   #24
Meddler
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
I don't suppose anyone yet knows where to acquire this trinket from ? http://www.thottbot.com/?i=60198

36 Stam and a use function that reduces hits by 68 to a max of 1100 over 15 secs. Solidly outperforms Smoking Heart in my book.

Thott/Alla/Wowhead are all reporting it as having been seen in live so I don't believe it's been removed since beta, haven't been able to find any actual info on where it drops though. Hazarding a guess probably one of the heroic mode dungeons given it's a level 70 blue and pretty nice, confirmation and knowledge of which one would be great though.

Offline
Old 02/01/07, 10:03 PM   #25
Kazanir
Mr. Sandman
 
Kazanir's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Exewut
[Stylin' Purple Hat]
How about this helmet?
Wouldn't the agility and stamina on this hat be better than guise of the devourer?

[e] link doesn't seem to work.
Stylin' Purple Hat
Binds when equipped
Head Leather
232 Armor
+48 Agility
+45 Stamina
Requires Level 69
I solidly prefer [Cobrascale Hood], despite the loss of some Agility. It's even uglier than Guise, which makes it even more of a winner in my book.

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

Offline
Old 02/02/07, 3:43 AM   #26
Emmerald
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Druid
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Maratai
Not a math whiz: how do your numbers compare with Emmerald's?

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....04460564&sid=1
Thanks for the link to this thread, Maratai.

> All that follows assumes:
> Level 70 vs Level 73 mob
> Base Bear form hp of 12000
> Tauren Druid
> 3/3 Thick Hide
> 5/5 Heart of the Wild
> 3/3 Survival of the Fittest

I used lvl 70 vs lvl 70. I haven't added the 5% health from Tauren
racial. I assumed 0/3 Survival of the Fittest.

The last can be modified easily in the current Excel. The two first
can't (requires some "technical" know-how to do it).

Additionally, the Armor table doesn't go as high as my base value goes.

Other than that, the models and the conclusions drawn from them seem
equivalent. I'll see at some point if I can make a calculation using
the same initial stats. It would indeed be interesting to verify my
model using their results.

Offline
Old 02/02/07, 3:55 AM   #27
Emmerald
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Druid
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Impowitz
I noticed that the *relative* value of stamina for life extension declines as base HP increases. Initially this seemed a little counter-intuitive. It is however correct extra stamina ADDS a flat amount of hit points; all other factors effectively MULTIPLY your life total by the % of damage avoided.
No, you're wrong. Effective HP gained from stamina is not constant. That base HP that you're multiplying by avoiding damage? The HP from sta is also multiplied. (Base HP + STA HP) * avoidance, not (Base HP * Avoidance) + STA HP, as your charts assume.

The more mitigation you have, the better STA is, and the more STA you have, the better mitigation is.
There is cumulative gains on all attributes. However, it's important to consider the relative increase in value for each additional unit.

IIRC, it goes something like this:
Armor - linear increase, i.e. each point of Armor is as good as the previous one, regardless of initial attributes
Health, Stamina - decreasing value, i.e. the more Health you have, the less Stamina and Health is worth
Dodge, Defense, Agility - increasing value, i.e. the higher your avoidance, the greater the value of these attributes

The increasing value of Dodge (and Defense equally) was already shown in another post.

However, there has been some discussion on the real-life validity with the lifetime-expection model. It doesn't take healing into account, and that's a very important factor in actual game play (no one expects to tank a boss without healing, regardless of mitigation, right?). In order to give your healers some breathing room, you need to have some respectable amount of health (like 12k), but after that it's of much less value compared to the effect of Armor, which reduces the strain on healer's mana pool. Avoidance has a similar problem in the sense that while it allows you to totally avoid damage, high avoidance (especially if combined with reduced Armor) makes incoming damage very spiky and more difficult to heal.

As a result of that discussion, I'm considering updating my model to include healing in some form, or at least provide some definable preference multipliers for attribute values. This will certainly move the values more in favor of Armor. What would be your opinion of such a change?

Offline
Old 02/02/07, 4:13 AM   #28
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
Tyvi's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Emmerald
As a result of that discussion, I'm considering updating my model to include healing in some form, or at least provide some definable preference multipliers for attribute values. This will certainly move the values more in favor of Armor. What would be your opinion of such a change?
I like the idea, but I am not sure how you could implement that.

I am still pondering what gear to pick. After all, it comes down to "Highest average effective life" (shown by Tankpoints, 1% Dodge is one 1% more mitigation on average) or "Highest guaranteed effective life" (downrank Avoidance here for guaranteed mitigation such as AC and Sta). I think I'll go for the latter because I just have no intention to play Dodge roulette with my raid and because mitigation from AC and HP is always there. If that doesn't work out, I can still change but that is what I intend to do for now anyway.


Offline
Old 02/02/07, 7:11 AM   #29
Yes
Bald Bull
 
Yes's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dragonmaw
A high HP/AC bear allows healers to use most efficient spells as opposed to one with 45% dodge and much less AC/HP


What will kill a bear is something akin: Crushing Crit Crushing Ability.

It is always easy for healers to compensate by using more consumables / mana pots.


What would be interesting is a model taking into account AC and STA and to a very small degree defense.

I'm however afraid warriors win in that deparment because of defensive stance and block -> crit crushing mechanics.

Now, if they chose to itemize epics by only putting points in AC/STA and enough def to become uncrittable, we'd be talking.


Offline
Old 02/02/07, 10:46 AM   #30
• Bad Luck
ffffff
 
Bad Luck's Avatar
 
Orc Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
I have yet to mess with it, but I got http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.ht...US;source=live last night from Karazhan.

Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket Miscellaneous
Requires Level 70
Use: Increases dodge rating by 270 for 10 seconds.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 34.

It seems like a great trinket giving us a bit of an "oh shit incoming damage" option. I assume the cooldown is on 90 seconds like all the other use trinkets. I'll give a trip report once I get to use it all proper like.

United States Offline
 

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Class Mechanics

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Shaman] Elemental Item Comparisons Binkenstein Class Mechanics 0 05/20/07 10:20 PM
Tanking metrics and tank comparisons Tasonir Class Mechanics 46 05/15/07 12:50 PM
[Warrior-Tank] Personal Item Values? uw10isplaya Class Mechanics 6 05/10/07 11:48 AM
Bear Form Threat Generation saramin Public Discussion 17 04/28/06 2:55 AM