Verdant gloves beat Wastewalker?
so +200 (1100 in bear form)armor is better than +34 agility always? I only have 19k armor, and adding 1100 gives me .90% mitigation, while 34 agility is about 2.3% avoidance.
Am I missing something here?
Well I'm not going to go in complete detail but:
0.9% avoidance, when you are already at say, 67% avoidance means you go from 33% damage taken to 32.1% damage taken. That is a reduction in damage taken of 2.7%.
As for avoidance, if you have 35% avoidance, and go up to 2.3%, its even trickier due to crushing blows.
If you have 0% avoidance, you take an average of 102.5% damage per hit (5% miss, 15% crushing).
If you have 35% dodge, and 7% miss, adding 2.3% avoidance changes your average damage from 65.5% to 63.2%. A decrease of 3.5% damage taken on average (but does nothing for reducing worst case burst).
I'm not sure how his calculations were done, but 0.9% mitigation extra is always a LOT more than it seems, and 2.3% avoidance extra is more than it seems as well (though not as extreme).
It looks like you're using base 0% dodge though, dodge gets better the more you have.
This is true and the result will be a table instead of a number which will make it more complicated. At 50% dodge it would take 200 swings to equal 100 hits which means it would half the 'avoidance equivalency'.
When I get some time I'll add it to the spreadsheet and get the armor points for dodge ranging from 30-50 in increments of 5. (Only concerned about realistic situations, do people run 50+ dodge buffed with enough HP/defense to seriously MT?) Since the point of this is to determine as pragmatically as possible which is a better choice given your other stats it should be valid and it will be interesting to see what changes.
My guess is Skulkers and Nimble-foot will be much more usable in raid situations where you get +10% dodge from buffs. I think MoT will still be better and Wastewalker may edge out Verdant at very high armor levels or in high-dodge sets.
TheOnly > It's an interesting point about crushing blows. My intuition is to model this as a flat 7.5% increase to overall damage taken which does tilt things slightly in favor of armor.
- The spreadsheet just works on the differential in armor and dodge between two items. I assumed +8 agi gems in the comparison I did because I was only interested in damage mitigation and agi is the only gem that accomplishes that (well, def does too, but insignificantly.)
Pan: I think you'll find that most folks discuss dodge/agility in terms of "avoidance" and armor in terms of "mitigation". Dodge doesn't mitigate, it removes 100% or 0%, strictly speaking.
TheOnly > It's an interesting point about crushing blows. My intuition is to model this as a flat 7.5% increase to overall damage taken which does tilt things slightly in favor of armor.
A 7.5% increase in damage is the best way to model it that I can see. That only breaks down IF you can reach dodge + miss > 85%. Realistically, this only will happen with dual wielding mobs and very high avoidance sets.
Two tables, one for normal and one for dual wielding bosses might be useful, since 24% base miss makes avoidance that much better.
Last edited by TheOnly : 05/02/07 at 2:20 AM.
Reason: Slight grammar corrections.
Thanks to your help I've revised the spreadsheet to take into account your base dodge % as well as the impact of crushing blows. Here are the results for some of the more interesting comparisons:
(Left column is your base avoidance [dodge + miss] rate, right column is the armor point at which the avoidance item becomes better than the armor item)
SKULKERS VERSUS HEAVY CLEFTHOOF (2.1 w/3x AGI) - 225 ARMOR VERSUS 2.24 AVOIDANCE
30% 27999.1453
35% 25249.84523
40% 22472.36225
45% 20000.40241
50% 17800.35814
MARK OF TYRANNY VERSUS MOROES POCKET WATCH - 180 ARMOR VERSUS 0.9 AVOIDANCE
30% (above cap)
50% (above cap)
Interesting. Let me modify what I said earlier about verdant versus wastewalker, come next patch I will be socketing my wastewalkers with +agi and using them. Skulkers are really good too and Nimble-tread boots worth getting if you can handle the HP/def loss and still have lots of armor from the rest of your gear. MoT is still irreplacable. Any other comparisons I should run?
Regarding dual wielding mobs of course when you start getting to 75%+ avoidance it really starts to skew heavily in favor of the dodge items since they get exponentially better with more avoidance. Of course in all situations a reasonable amount of HP and crit immunity must be maintained.
Maratai: I agree that is clearer but in this sense I'm talking about overall damage taken over the course of a fight, so both armor reduction and avoidance mitigate part of that damage. When speaking about an individual hit there's a stronger difference between 'avoidance' and 'mitigation'. At least that's how I recognize the terms.
Last edited by Paniolo : 05/02/07 at 5:32 AM.
Reason: clarification
Well you have to keep in mind that those numbers are only about average damage taken.
It is my experience that flat migation is worth more than similar avoidance, since migation impacts your worst case scenario, and avoidance doesn't.
And for some reason my healers always stop winding up heals on me if I dodge 10+ times in a row. Which is another thing to consider.
The other thing that becomes a factor as you socket all your gear with +8 AGI gems is your HP is going to plummet. Right now my HP is passable but not good (~13300 unbuffed in DB). As I look for ways to improve my overall viability I have to consider not only damage taken (DR and avoidance) but the health buffer I provide the healers.
Now we move on to yet another topic - what are you tanking?
For Raid Bosses, I will make two observations: 1) if you can't survive an unlucky string of hits (healers have to be on the move and can't heal you for a second or two) then your dodge is worthless at any level (<100%). 2) When you have multiple healers on you and you're taking big hits you will be overhealed ALOT. The more you dodge the more they overheal. For that reason I find that in raid situations you might as well take less damage per hit and let the healers do what they're there for then make them sweat bullets while you dodge 6 attacks and then eat 3 CBs in a row.
For your average 5 man, dodge is almost your enemy. I NEVER have enough rage when tanking 5 mans. If you guys have ever been in the group where the POM Pyroblast is flying over your shoulder before the mob even gets to you then you know every point of rage must be used effectively to keep agro. If I pull a mob or two and dodge the first 3 attacks then I'm not going to have sufficient rage to keep the mobs off agro happy DPSers. If the mob hits you instead then you're sitting pretty with half a rage bar and all of your tools are at your disposal.
I have been a AGI/dodge whore since they changed our agility:dodge ratio back in 2.0. Lately I have been finding that the damage I take when I stack dodge can overwhelm even the best of healers but less damage more frequently is much easier to heal.
In summary: avoidance is great and in theory stacking dodge through the roof may make you take less damage, but in practice there are a number of reasons when you might want to be taking that damage instead of avoiding it.
0.9 avoidance? 34 dodge rating on pocket patch, 12 on MoT, = 22 dodge rating difference = >1% avoidance (1.17%)
Thanks, will update.
Originally Posted by Exewut
Well you have to keep in mind that those numbers are only about average damage taken.
Originally Posted by Kier
Now we move on to yet another topic - what are you tanking?
You're preaching to the choir. My current tanking setup is max armor, max stamina - solid stars in every socket, etc. In raids I'm running around 24k armor and 21k HP w/o consumables. My unbuffed avoidance is 32%. The reality of it is that I'm at the point where some of the things I do tank (heroics, OT in Kara & Gruul) there's almost zero risk of me dying anymore, so I'd like to start doing some optimizing to reduce my overall damage taken - without gimping my armor/stamina too much.
In that context the point of this calculation is to determine which individual gear items actually -do- reduce overall damage taken, and by how much.
When tanking anything where death is a serious risk, of course, I'll be in my current gear.
You're preaching to the choir. My current tanking setup is max armor, max stamina - solid stars in every socket, etc. In raids I'm running around 24k armor and 21k HP w/o consumables. My unbuffed avoidance is 32%. The reality of it is that I'm at the point where some of the things I do tank (heroics, OT in Kara & Gruul) there's almost zero risk of me dying anymore, so I'd like to start doing some optimizing to reduce my overall damage taken - without gimping my armor/stamina too much.
In that context the point of this calculation is to determine which individual gear items actually -do- reduce overall damage taken, and by how much.
When tanking anything where death is a serious risk, of course, I'll be in my current gear.
Those are some decent stats. Your armory appears to be some mix of DPS gear and tanking gear. I wouldn't mind seeing a list of your current gear. As I said I run at about 21k armor and raid buffed ~17500 hp. Unbuffed 37.5% dodge. When you say avoidance are you including miss?
Agility also = Crit, i.e. threat. This is the ONLY ability where bears outshine warriors. We dps more in tanking gear and put out more threat, albeit a pale comparison of what it used to be.
Agility also = Crit, i.e. threat. This is the ONLY ability where bears outshine warriors. We dps more in tanking gear and put out more threat, albeit a pale comparison of what it used to be.
What statement did I make that this is in reference to?
You said agility in 5 mans was bad and to be avoided. I'm just pointing out that while your statement holds some truth, the complete equation =
1. More Agility = More dodge = less rage from damage taken = less rage to generate threat; plus
2. More Agility = More crit = more rage from damage done = more threat.
You said agility in 5 mans was bad and to be avoided. I'm just pointing out that while your statement holds some truth, the complete equation =
1. More Agility = More dodge = less rage from damage taken = less rage to generate threat; plus
2. More Agility = More crit = more rage from damage done = more threat.
Ah, OK. Thanks for clarifying - wanted to make sure I was addressing the same subject as you
What you say is certainly true. The issue I have is the rage you generate from taking damage is significantly more than the rage you generate from doing damage (depending, of course, on both how much damage you deal and how much damage you take, but in general).
For instance, a regular melee hit for me generates 7 rage (8 once in awhile I think but mostly 7). In order to Mangle, I need 3 melee hits, or 1 melee crit. Conversely, when I receive a melee hit against a 5 man NPC it generally generates >18 rage. When I receive a melee hit against a raid boss it generates in excess of 50 rage.
Therefore for me it is much better to be hit more than it is to try to boost my ability to hit hard as a means to generate additional rage (and by doing so generate more threat).
Even last night on Maulgar on the pull he came to me with FFF but I dodged the first ~5-6 attacks, he avoided my first 3-4 attacks, and there I was with no rage and very little agro. If I had hit him once I would have generated white damage threat and not had enough rage to Mangle. The second he hits me I've got enough rage to start chaining Mauls in addition to Mangle/Lacerate and get Demo up.
So to sum up, I don't disagree with anything you said. I do not like to rely on damage done in order to generate rage (not to mention I like to Maul a lot :p) but some other folks may consider crit melee as a good way to generate additional rage.
It's a delicate balance. I try to err more towards mitigation than pure avoidance. I've been rage-starved on bosses before due to dodge strings, which works great everywhere but the beginning of the fight.
JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?
It's a delicate balance. I try to err more towards mitigation than pure avoidance. I've been rage-starved on bosses before due to dodge strings, which works great everywhere but the beginning of the fight.
Yeah I always surprise myself a little bit on Maulgar or Magtheridon when I start seeing "You do not have enough rage." 5-6 seconds of dodges and even a full rage bar goes down the tubes.
Also /wave to Dragonmaw Alliance side. That was my first realm/faction
It's a delicate balance. I try to err more towards mitigation than pure avoidance. I've been rage-starved on bosses before due to dodge strings, which works great everywhere but the beginning of the fight.
Same here. I am starting to lean towards dropping my Heavy Clefthoof Vest in favor of Warden's Hauberk socketed with 3x[Shifting Nightseye], just because I'm starting to push well beyond the def+resilience needed to be uncrittable if I go with strictly "tank" gear in every slot. Yet, I worry about the loss of stamina and stacking too much dodge (I'm already sitting at ~30-32% unbuffed dodge). I also worry about starting to spill over into a THIRD 18-slot bag of feral gear...
This is one reason I really wish they'd get around to fixing the stupid bug with Staff of Natural Fury. I'd like to use that to generate burst threat at the outset of a pull and then swap in Earthwarden once I've established aggro and am soaking up the hits. But losing every buff from the Feral tree upon swapping weapons makes that a...less than desirable option.
This is one reason I really wish they'd get around to fixing the stupid bug with Staff of Natural Fury. I'd like to use that to generate burst threat at the outset of a pull and then swap in Earthwarden once I've established aggro and am soaking up the hits. But losing every buff from the Feral tree upon swapping weapons makes that a...less than desirable option.
Can you please provide a link to this bug? I haven't heard it mentioned before today.
Can you please provide a link to this bug? I haven't heard it mentioned before today.
I've mentioned it on these boards at least 2-3 times and posted to the Blizzard bug forum as well. You're the first person to ever acknowledge it, which has had me wondering if it's just a local issue with my particular assemblage of AddOns or something.
If you have Staff of Natural Fury, try the following and see what happens: with SoNF equipped, shift to Bear or Cat. Then, while still in said form, swap in some other weapon. Me, I immediately lose every buff whose source is the Feral tree. Goodbye, LotP. Goodbye, HotW STA or STR buff. Goodbye, Thick Hide armor buff. Goodbye, AP. Goodbye, crit. You get the picture...
I've mentioned it on these boards at least 2-3 times and posted to the Blizzard bug forum as well. You're the first person to ever acknowledge it, which has had me wondering if it's just a local issue with my particular assemblage of AddOns or something.
If you have Staff of Natural Fury, try the following and see what happens: with SoNF equipped, shift to Bear or Cat. Then, while still in said form, swap in some other weapon. Me, I immediately lose every buff whose source is the Feral tree. Goodbye, LotP. Goodbye, HotW STA or STR buff. Goodbye, Thick Hide armor buff. Goodbye, AP. Goodbye, crit. You get the picture...
Swapping in Moonglade pieces has the same effect, and it'll pull you out of stealth as well, if you're prowling around cat. I'd guess it has to do with the reduced mana cost on shifting bonuses on those items, but regardless, it's a bit of a pain.
Well you have to keep in mind that those numbers are only about average damage taken.
It is my experience that flat migation is worth more than similar avoidance, since migation impacts your worst case scenario, and avoidance doesn't.
And for some reason my healers always stop winding up heals on me if I dodge 10+ times in a row. Which is another thing to consider.
/sigh /agree
Watch out for this. I used the proc on Moroes' pocket watch during phase 2 of prince, and after not taking any hits (I don't think I literally had 100% avoidance, but got lucky with ~90-95%) I didn't recieve any heals either. So I died about 10 seconds after the trinket wore off. And just to offer something constructive, I recommend macroing pocket watch uses to /raid chat. Annoy the raid, save your life! It's win win!
Those are some decent stats. Your armory appears to be some mix of DPS gear and tanking gear. I wouldn't mind seeing a list of your current gear. As I said I run at about 21k armor and raid buffed ~17500 hp. Unbuffed 37.5% dodge. When you say avoidance are you including miss?
I logged off in some very strange gear. I'll try to log off with my tanking gear next time. My unbuffed stats are 22.5k armor, 31.75% total avoidance (dodge+miss), 13.5k hp, 418 defense. Swapping in the Heavy Clefthoof leggings gives me 14k unbuffed HP at a loss of some armor; I switch between the two depending on the group I'm in. Obviously, 21k hp is with an absurd amount of buffs - imp, fort, commanding shout, and BoK - but that's raiding for you.
With my gear 2.1 is going to be an ungodly buff, it's ridiculous how almost everything I'm wearing is getting better in some way.
Originally Posted by Runnybabbit
Same here. I am starting to lean towards dropping my Heavy Clefthoof Vest in favor of Warden's Hauberk socketed with 3x[Shifting Nightseye], just because I'm starting to push well beyond the def+resilience needed to be uncrittable if I go with strictly "tank" gear in every slot. Yet, I worry about the loss of stamina and stacking too much dodge (I'm already sitting at ~30-32% unbuffed dodge). I also worry about starting to spill over into a THIRD 18-slot bag of feral gear...
HEAVY CLEFTHOOF VEST (2.1) VERSUS WARDENS HAUBERK - 262 ARMOR VERSUS 1.8% DODGE
30% (above cap)
50% 31627.19313
60% 20470.46037
70% 13599.12904
IMO Not worth it unless you want a specialty set devoted to DW bosses.
05/01/07, 10:46 PM
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