While your example is correct, I just want to comment on your statement that AC has "dimishing returns past 60".
First, the Armorreduction formula in both cases (pre 60 and post 60) differ only by the constant C when reduced to the form
Armorreduction AR = AC / (AC + C). Where C depends on the Lvl of Mob.
So if armor has dimishing returns past 60 it has dimishing returns before 60.
Second, "dimishing returns" is somewhat an ambiguous term.
Life expectancy (without heals) can be compressed into:
Life Expectancy = HP * (1+AC / C) / Hit
where HP = HP Pool, Hit = unmitigatedAvgHit, AC = Armor Value and C = Constant in the AR Formula.
For Lvl73 Boss Mobs C = 11960.
As you can see Life Expectancy "scales" linear in AC value, albeit affine linear.
Long story short: I wouldn't call it "dimishing" per se. It's just obfuscated by the offset term, if you start with double Lifeexpectancy and calculate more then double needed AC from there. To put it sloppy: "Double AC does not give you double the Life expectancy, because even with zero AC you still have some time to live"
Kinda difficult to explain, but I hope you get the drift.
Correct me if I have made a mistake.
Or in other words - it's a graph with a non-0 intercept. (I'm not entirely sure I understand your post, but this is basically the drift, right?)
Time to
live
|
|
| -
| -
| - <- Time to live increases as armour goes up, linearly.
| -
| -
|- <- 0 armour
|
|-----------------------Armour
Or in other words - it's a graph with a non-0 intercept. (I'm not entirely sure I understand your post, but this is basically the drift, right?)
Yes exactly.
To put it in a academical example. Lets assume you have 10K HP, facing a Lvl73 mob hitting for exactly 1K damage every second.
With 0 armor you live 10 seconds.
Case1)
You equip 1K AC.
Your life expectancy is now 10K * (1+1000/11960)/1K = 10.8361 s.
You gained .8361 s by equiping 1K more armor, going from 0 AC to 1K AC.
Case 2)
You have imba 999K armor and equip 1K more armor.
Your life expectancy is now 10K * (1+1000000/11960)/1K= 846.1204 s
You previously (with 999K AC) lived for 10K * (1+999000/11960)/1K= 845.2843 s.
You gained .8361 s by equipping 1K additional armor.
As you can see AC grants you the same additional time to live, no matter how much armor you already have. This is until you hit the hard cap.
To put it in a academical example. Lets assume you have 10K HP, facing a Lvl73 mob hitting for exactly 1K damage every second.
With 0 armor you live 10 seconds.
Case1)
You equip 1K AC.
Your life expectancy is now 10K * (1+1000/11960)/1K = 10.8361 s.
You gained .8361 s by equiping 1K more armor, going from 0 AC to 1K AC.
Case 2)
You have imba 999K armor and equip 1K more armor.
Your life expectancy is now 10K * (1+1000000/11960)/1K= 846.1204 s
You previously (with 999K AC) lived for 10K * (1+999000/11960)/1K= 845.2843 s.
You gained .8361 s by equipping 1K additional armor.
As you can see AC grants you the same additional time to live, no matter how much armor you already have. This is until you hit the hard cap.
So you are trying to say to me that going from 11 sec to live to 12 sec to live would be exactly as much worth for you as going from 845 sec to 846 sec ?
I call it bull.
Sure the math say its worth as much time, but is that time worth as much when u live for so much longer already ?
This is what I was referring too when I said armor doesn't have diminishing returns. Of course, looking at it, on most bosses, you should be looking at getting a heal by the latest on the third hit so straight up mitigation is far more important. You need a boss like Prince, where you can expect many smaller but faster hits, to make increased armor really shine.
Originally Posted by missiletoad
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
So you are trying to say to me that going from 11 sec to live to 12 sec to live would be exactly as much worth for you as going from 845 sec to 846 sec ?
I call it bull.
Sure the math say its worth as much time, but is that time worth as much when u live for so much longer already ?
He's saying that 1K armor is always worth 1sec of life expectancy. Sure you'll come to a point where one more second doesn't matter but the math is right so adding more armor is never a bad option until you hit the hard cap.
Remember, each stat has a sweet spot that is determined by the player. Hp for example is a different number from player to player. I like a minimum of 19K but a druid with better healers might like a minimum of 17K. There is no real right or wrong in these cases.
Originally Posted by missiletoad
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
So you are trying to say to me that going from 11 sec to live to 12 sec to live would be exactly as much worth for you as going from 845 sec to 846 sec ?
Yes, I would. As the time it additionaly grants is the same. The relative increase is not a viable metric to judge non upper bounded upgrades. It can't be.
DPS upgrades (crit% e.g.) cannot be compared the same. Because they have an inherent limit (100% crit rate gives a constant DPS boost factor).
AC works differently (neglecting the hard cap for a moment).
But this really gets offtopic.
Sure the math say its worth as much time, but is that time worth as much when u live for so much longer already ?
I see where you are heading to ... the problem is: I dont see any other viable metric to judge AC benefits.
Time to live is *for me* the paramount metric in a tanking scenario.
Even with avoidance and healing considered, the effect of additional armor stays true. Unless we are talking about a scenario where additional AC mitigation makes a single hit/timeframe survivable or not. But such digital outcomes cannot provide linear (read: undimishing) returns by design. You either have enough to survive or you don't.
I understand the math behind what you say and it's nothing wrong with the math, but the calculations we do here is to help us put on the correct gear isn't it ?
Then we also have to look more at what the math is telling us, just by saying its linear doesn't say it have a linear worth to me. Going from living 3 sec to living 4 sec is much more worth for me then going from 20 sec to 21 sec, but as you say its the same time I've gained.
Just as a said note I want to thank everyone here for a very good forum, it has really helped my optimize my gear choices and performance
10k * 68.75/1000 = 687.5
10k * 75/1000 = 750 (9570 armor increase = 62.5 more seconds to live)
10k * 80/1000 = 800 (12020 armor increase = 50 more seconds to live)
More armor, lower increase in time to live, Diminishing returns.
I'm not sure what the above means.
Care to explain?
EDIT: Now I realized what you meant above.
The correct computation would be:
68.75% DR: LE = 10k/(1000*(1-.6875)) = 32
75% DR: LE = 10k/(1000*(1-.75)) = 40 (8s more to live, with 9568 more AC)
80% DR: LE = 10k/(1000*(1-.8)) = 50s (10s more to live, with 11960 more AC)
Note that 11960 = 1.25 * 9568, and the gain in Life Expectancy is exactly 1.25 fold.
or for level 73:
DR = Armor/(Armor+11960)
I used that one.
In my academical example from above (Step-by-step):
Case 1)
AC = 0K, AR = 0, Hit = 1K, LifeExpectancy = 10s
AC = 1K, AR = 1000/12960=0.0772, Hit=922.84, LE=10000/922.84=10.8361s
1K AC gain gives additional 0.8361s to live
Case 2) (ignoring hard cap)
AC=999K, AR=999000/1010960=0.988170, Hit=11.8303, LE=10000/11.83=845.2843s
AC=1M, AR=1000000/1011960=0.988181, Hit=11.8186, LE=846.1204s
1K AC gain gives you additional 0.8361s to live
As you see the calculations are cumbersome and can be calculated much more shortly as seen in my original post.
I see where you are heading to ... the problem is: I dont see any other viable metric to judge AC benefits.
Time to live is *for me* the paramount metric in a tanking scenario.
Even with avoidance and healing considered, the effect of additional armor stays true.
Unless we are talking about a scenario where additional AC mitigation makes a single hit/timeframe survivable or not. But such digital outcomes cannot provide linear (read: undimishing) returns by design. You either have enough to survive or you don't.
And that's the essence of why "more armor" won't always be good compared to things like straight avoidance. It varies based on the fight, but when you have healers, being able to go from 10s to 15s survival with no heals is MUCH more valuable than being able to go from 60s to 65s with no heals. When are you ever going to have to go over a minute without healing? Please. That means that while the absolute difference in "survival time" is a linear increase with armor amount, (indeed, the armor formula is designed thus) the relative value is starkly diminishing as the addition of avoidance stats becomes more valuable because they reduce incoming damage more than armor can. It makes things spikier, yes, but if you already have enough armor/stam to avoid getting 1/2/3/4/5-shotted (this is a fight-dependent analysis) then it doesn't matter.
Back to the topic at hand:
Wearing full Tier 6 and no other items, I have an armor total of 3152, which is 17336 in Dire Bear Form with full Thick Hide. Now let's add some more tanking gear:
Frayed Tether of the Drowned: 45 Sta, 24 Def, 18 Hit, 0 Armor
Phoenix-Wing Cloak: 27 Sta, 27 Dodge, 22 Defense, 108 Armor
Band of the Abyssal Lord: 53 Sta, 27 Def, 21 Hit, 0 Armor
Ring of Deceitful Intent: 42 Sta, 21 Agi, 19 Hit, 58 AP, 0 Armor
Shadowmoon Insignia: 36 Def, 32 Dodge, Lifegiving Gem, 0 Armor
Darkmoon Card: Vengeance: 51 Sta, Holythorns, 0 Armor
This totals out to (with the T6 added in) an armor value of 4901, which with Thick Hide in bearform becomes 26956 armor. Even with Inspiration up that is still under the cap (wheee the priest talents aren't wasted <_<) of 75% mitigation. Meanwhile, I was able to ignore armor on my rings/trinkets/etc. I gained a boatload of hit rating, stam, and agi+dodge from doing so, in addition to being able to move to higher ilvl stuff across the board and pick up a couple of lolrogue loots on the way. I have 84 hit rating in this setup which means that I'm only very rarely going to miss while tanking, which is just sick all on its own.
I'm really not seeing the issue with this setup? It moves away from abusing the ring/trinket/cloak slots for massive armor returns...but you know what? I'm okay with that. Ring in a new era; I'm happy to bank my Mark of Tyranny and never worry about finding a Depleted Badge.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Are druids really that hard up for Defense/Resilience that this is really an issue? I mean seriously, people keep talking like the Clefthoof Set is the only place to get Defense, when in reality it's not even needed/wanted. There's a reason I dislike the set, and it ain't lack of agility, it's the 86 (next to-)useless defense rating.
Head: Glyph of the Defender: +16 Defense Rating
Neck: Necklace of the Juggernaut: +21 Defense Rating
Shoulders: Greater Inscription of the Knight: +15 Defense Rating (+10 for Aldor)
Cloak: Gilded Thorium Cloak: +21 Defense Rating (Resolute Cape +21 Resilience)
Finger: Violet Signet of the Great Protector: +16 Defense Rating
Finger: Ring of Unyielding Force: +21 Defense Rating
Trinket: Timelapse Shard: +23 Resilience
Weapon: Earthwarden: +24 Defense Rating
That's +134 Defense (129 for Aldor) and +23 Resilience, Bam, crit immune.
This isn't even "lol@Boevis and his agility", every time I see druids complaining about defense I'm longing to ask Why the hell aren't you using those items listed above? I know I sound like an ass, but if you're not at the level of progression where you have access to those items, then I honestly don't think the presence of Defense/Resilience on SSC/TE/BT/Hyjal loot is any of your concern.
Do I really think I'm going to be using those things when I enter BT/Hyjal? Most of them, yes. After all, I was using Jin'do's Evil Eye, MoUL, Cauterizing Band, and Cenarion Gloves (don't ask) not to mention the ZG enchants and DM Trinket to heal in Naxx. I'm honestly shocked that right off the bat we basically get uncritable status and amazing health/armor handed to us.
Sorry to bring up an old post but this has actually been a significant issue for me when it comes to gear choice. I feel like I'm stuck with Heavy Clefthoof Pants right now, much as I want to upgrade to T4 or T5 (I have the following or a close equivalent):
Check - Head: Glyph of the Defender: +16 Defense Rating
Check - Neck: Necklace of the Juggernaut: +21 Defense Rating
Check - Shoulders: Greater Inscription of the Knight: +15 Defense Rating (+10 for Aldor)
Check - Cloak: Gilded Thorium Cloak: +21 Defense Rating (Resolute Cape +21 Resilience)
Check - Finger: Violet Signet of the Great Protector: +16 Defense Rating
Check - Finger: Ring of Unyielding Force: +21 Defense Rating
Not - Trinket: Timelapse Shard: +23 Resilience (I suppose I could get one but it won't fix the problem itself)
Not - Weapon: Earthwarden: +24 Defense Rating (Wildfury Greatstaff dropped on our 3rd week in SSC and it outshines Earthwarden across the board)
So, by forgoing Earthwarden and the shard, it leaves me in a bad position. With a +12 defense enchant on my bracers instead of agility or stamina and Heavy Clefthoof Leggings I can make up the difference but it is far from an ideal combination.
Interestingly, if I look Hugehoss up on Armory, I see he's in a similar position and seems to have given up on being uncrittable (398 defense) by adopting T4 legs. He's gone for the PVP bracers which was one thing I'd thought of trying as well but, again, it doesn't quite bridget he gap.
The solution? Shadowmoon Insignia of course (except it is a BT drop which will be at least a few months out if you aren't in Nihilum or Curse or the equivalent). It still seems like there is a significant +defense gap when you get out of that entry-level gear.
Yeah it's pretty sad that the recent itemisation of weapons seems pretty sub standard. I'd far prefer to see an upgraded earthwarden and stranglestaff than what the the greatstaff / pillar look like at present.
I'm using Gladiator Gloves (hoping to replace with t5/6 at some point soon, and swap in timelapse shard) with the PvP belt and bracers, along with Neck of Juggernaught and the Violet/Heroic rings, plus the shoulder enchant (exalted aldor). That brings me to 1.2% reduced crit from defence, and 1.42% reduced crit from resillience. The rest of my gear is 4 t4, zierhuts boots, Thoriumweave or Razor Scale cloaks (depends on fight), and whatever trinkets I decide on, along with Wildfury Staff. It's pretty easy to get the crit cap as long as you mix and match resillience with defence. With this set of gear, the only "wasted" items in an offtank role are the rings, as I can swap the staff and everything else is at least partially DPS based (although quite often I end up wearing tanking trinkets).
I'm using Gladiator Gloves (hoping to replace with t5/6 at some point soon, and swap in timelapse shard) with the PvP belt and bracers...
The problem with this approach and most of the other ones that I've seen is that we have to pass on some of the best damage mitigation items in the game in order to stay at the crit cap. The Belt of Natural Power is leaps and bounds ahead of the PVP belt in terms of overall mitigation but falls short in terms of defense or resilience. I hadn't thought of the Ironskin potion alternative; looks expensive but viable. Or I suppose I could end up going for the PVP bracers because there aren't any 'outstanding' alternatives in that slot, and mix that with more Enduring Talasite gems or something (even though they are inferior to agility/stamina ones). I don't know, maybe this is an issue Warriors face as well but it always seems that defense came in copious amounts on top end Warrior tanking gear.
I don't know, maybe this is an issue Warriors face as well but it always seems that defense came in copious amounts on top end Warrior tanking gear.
Not that a few leather items with +def wouldnt be useful, but to be fair, Warriors need a lot more def items to reach their cap. Bears can reach theirs with the 2 trinket slots, 2 rings and cloak/enchants/gems.
Scarab of Displacement (Hydross) - 35 static defence, trinket. Bonus of on use effect for more defence.
Timelapse Shard - 24 static Resillience, Trinket. Bonus of 27 stamina.
Adamantite Figurine - 32 defence static, Trinket. Bonus of on use effect for more armour.
Brooch of the Immortal King - 32 defence static, Trinket. Bonus on use effect for 1250 more health.
Resillience on Chest - 15 static resillience, Chest Enchant.
Resolute Cape - 21 static resillience, Cloak. Also has decent armour and stamina (almost of the order of Thoriumweave).
Pendant of Triumph - 17 resillience static AND gem slot (yellow).
There are numerous Epic gems with resillience on that you could try getting too - theres a couple of really nice ones like the Steady Chrysophrase (6 stam/5 resillience), Beaming Fire Opal (5 dodge rating and 4 resillience), and Mystic Lionseye/Sublime Mystic Dawnstone (10 resillience). Combine these with items like the Necklace of the Deep/Pendant of Triumph, and you can get some pretty hefty crit-reducing items. According to Wowhead theres also an 8 resillience gem (Dawnstone) but I can't confirm anything about whether it's actually in the game or not (never seen it before).
I'm planning on ditching the PvP belt for the Belt of Natural Power as soon as I can (i.e. it drops in one of our raids when I'm there) and swapping the Timelapse shard back in to my gear. Obviously this means I've got a bit of a problem as then if I switch out the gloves for T5/6 I'm a bit screwed on crit immunity. Might go for a Resolute cape (if I'm not bankrupt after the belt, I would be after that.) or one of the trinkets (probably the Brooch as I think I sold my adamantite figurine). I might even just give up on crit immunity against bosses - the number of times I actually tank a skull level mob is maybe once a week at most, and then it's for a very minimal amount of time. Might even end up grabbing a Soulpriests Ring of Resolve and getting rid of my Heroic Badges ring.
Anyway, I think there's plenty of options for crit immunity, you just have to give up other things to get them, which is a good design mechanic. Providing exact upgrades that you will always go to regardless, without losing anything by going to them reduces the number of choices and is a pretty boring way to have to gear your character.
I see the combo of pvp hat+shoulders isn't popular anymore, however, with the updated stats next week it's very likely that getting those 2 items in your tanking set would be a good move.
I see the combo of pvp hat+shoulders isn't popular anymore, however, with the updated stats next week it's very likely that getting those 2 items in your tanking set would be a good move.
The problem with 2 pieces of Gladiator is that it breaks 4 piece of any other set. Malornex4 is a very nice bonus, Nordrassil is pretty gimp for bears assuming it's on the bleed and not the initial part (due to the way threat gen on lacerate works, although it isn't bad for Cats) and the 4 piece t6 isn't great for Bears (but again, not bad for Cats). The armour values on Gladiator pieces really doesn't match up to the tier sets either, and since 2.1 the DPS stats aren't as good (apart from gladiator gloves over t4).
I generally reference this site when I'm looking at what pieces of gear I should be shooting for. It's seems to stay fairly up to date as new items are released and old items are revamped.
With this site you can easily find what items are better than your current piece, where they come from, etc. I like it because it allows me to plot out realistic short term goals in regards to what upgrades I'm getting for what slot, what upgrades I can skip, and so on.
It's a good start Anticor, but static values are only good if you have the same amounts of stats and put the same value in them as the person who made the sheet.
Once you have a set of gear one item may appear as an upgrade on the list, but provide less mitigation than something else, or may put you at an unacceptable level of health or anti-crit.
That is why I prefer to work with spreadsheets where you can compare values of sets of equipment, like some of the ones linked earlier in the thread. (I think there is 2 or 3 around page 27).
Ememrald now has 2 sets of pages for bear mititgation. One for entry level gear + stats and one for high end stats + raid buffs. The 1st favors STA while the second favors mitigation and avoidance. While you should never take any tanking gear page at face value, both of these pages together give a good idea of where gear stands. At least they are hosted off of the same site.
06/04/07, 9:55 AM
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