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Old 05/13/07, 4:42 AM   #631
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
First off, it's 156 Defense Rating, not 154. I think this number has been misquoted at least 10 times in this thread, so I'll bold this for everyone.

156 defense rating / 2.4 rating per defense = 65 defense. 65/25 = 2.6% Crit Reduction

And that's not how Itemization works in WoW, 102 X + 52 Y =/= 154 Z.

All stats (except Sta) and ratings cost 230 'points' each.

Defense: (156*230)^(3/2) = 6,796,395
Resilience: (102*230)^(3/2) = 3,593,287
Difference = 3,203,107
3,203,107^(2/3)=21729/230 = 94.5

So for the cost of 156 Defense, you can get 102 Resilience and 94 Agility which is ~6.38% Dodge, 3.76% Crit, and 188 armor, compared to the 5.2% Avoidance from Defense.

Of course, it's going to be spread out between multiple items, so it's actually looking like:
Gilded Thorium Cloak: 24 Rating = 10 Defense = .4% Reduction and .8% Avoidance
Instead of Defense it could have had 16 Resilience (16/39.4 = .4%)
and
(24^1.5-16^1.5)^(2/3) = 14 Agility = .95% Dodge

So even with rounding errors in favor of the Defense (rounded Resilience up and Agility down) it still loses.

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Old 05/13/07, 7:26 AM   #632
Hullahop
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
how do you guys think this ring holds up as a entry lvl tank ring?

Delicate Eternium Ring
Binds when equipped
Unique-Equipped
Finger
+25 Agility
+15 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 16.

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Old 05/13/07, 11:33 AM   #633
Kazanir
Mr. Sandman
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by HaklePrime View Post
Is anyone else having a really hard time deciding how to kit their gear with the upcoming patch? I'm finding myself in this delicate position of tanking stats vs DPS stats, and too many socketable items are overlapping.

Pants are my biggest issue at the moment, as I have the Forestwalker, and have access to T4/5, not to mention that the pants slot represents a large 'bonus' from the leg enchant. From a tanking standpoint, T5 are the best of the three. Irritatingly though, T5 are also the best from a DPS standpoint, only slightly edging CHL once they have the blue socket+socket bonus. I'm finding myself in a similar position with chestpieces as well.

I think my primary problem is being a min/max player, to the utter extreme. I loathe hybridizing my gear, but can't see any suitable alternative that doesn't include 2 sets of T5. But that just seems silly to me, all for the sake of a socket, and a leg enchant.

Kind of free-thought writing here, I'll likely just end up putting Shifting Nightseye in everything, much to my chagrin.
This is what I touched on in the Feral Druid Pants Dilemma thread. Thankfully, I'm finding that Agility is so good (better than Strength) that a Skulker's Greaves (the new kind) full of +8 Agi gems is straight up better than T5 pants for DPS, which leaves the option of using T4/T5/HCL for tanking depending on what is needed and what I have.

A lot of people don't realize exactly how good Agility is for DPS when calculating this stuff. According to Emmerald's spreadsheet (updated to include my unbuffed hit/crit/AP as well as factoring in Kings) for me, Agility is worth about 2.75x what 1 AP is, and Strength is worth 2.64. For comparison's sake, Crit Rating is worth 1.75x AP. It's a disgusting divide, but it means that anything with "of the Tiger" style stats or anything with sockets so I can stack Agility is FAR better than anything else for DPS.

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

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Old 05/13/07, 12:18 PM   #634
Falk
Soda Popinski
 
Falk
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Hullahop: It's 'not bad' if you don't have any better, but as far as I'm concerned, ring and trinket slots are for Druids to abuse the armor multiplier, with the exceptions being if you're already comfortable with your AC and something has a ton of Stamina on it, like Argussian for example.

You'd probably be best off trying to grab Lt. Drake's AC ring... that's not bad for a starter.

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Old 05/13/07, 12:26 PM   #635
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
For me, Delicate Eternium and Shapeshifters Signet are both "An Enh Shaman/Rogue could probably tank this" rings for me still. Tanking one of the first adds on Magtheridon, Hydross, Maulgar's Priest, etc. presents excellent opportunity for Agi stacking as a means of tanking that will be followed by dps later.

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Old 05/14/07, 2:16 AM   #636
Copernicus
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Tichondrius
Post-patch, Magtheridon's head can be turned in for a ring option.

The tanking ring is 367 armor, 34 stam, and 20 defense rating. http://www.vodka-guild.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2988 for the post and http://www.vodka-guild.com/screenshots/tbc/items.jpg for the direct link.

Is that the second best tanking ring for druids (behind the Violet Signet)?

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Old 05/14/07, 5:32 AM   #637
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
And Warriors everywhere cried out in pain ... Yet another tanking reward that's useless for them.

I honestly would have rather the Magtheridon head reward be for warriors for once (I could take the DPS ring guilt free!) and give druids a drop (or Kael/Vash head reward) for tanking to replace the many Early Kara or lower items we'll be using in Black Temple (Neck, Cloak, Wrist, Gloves, Waist, Boots, Idol, Trinket, Weapon ...)

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Old 05/14/07, 10:12 AM   #638
Jini
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Stormrage
I believe Boevis' answer was one big yes.

The Maggy head ring is slightly behind the exalted Violet Signet.

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Old 05/14/07, 10:39 AM   #639
Zeln
Mr. Sandman
 
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Goblin Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Looking back at Exewut's screenshot in this post: Bear tank item comparisons I'm not sure in the long run Magtheridon's ring is the best min/max item. But then again, when I see Magtheridons's head drop it will definately be a large enough armor upgrade for me.

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Old 05/14/07, 11:15 AM   #640
Quasar
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Dragonmaw
Originally Posted by Waka View Post
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...may/pillar.jpg

This staff dropped from Anetheron in Hyjal on PTR :

Pillar of Ferocity
550 armor
47 STR
96 STA
826 Feral AP

Finally a item designed for feral druids that is not a trash loot !

Still, I don't know where we'll find our crit immunity with the lack of defense rating on our sets / non-set items (the boots from BT trash) and weapons
Anybody else look at that staff and cry that the Strength isn't Agility?

JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?

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Old 05/14/07, 12:24 PM   #641
Solstice
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Hmm, anyone else having difficulty deciding which meta to put in t4 post patch?

Problem is, it's the best tanking headpiece available at that level of progression by a looong way, but also the best for dps. Gladiators and that new badge reward helm pale in comparison. I'm caught between keeping the powerful earthstorm (18stam 5% stun resist) I have at the moment or switching to that new one, relentless earthstorm (12agi 3% crit damage) which incidentally has had it's requirements reduced to 2 of each color if I recall correctly.

I suppose the other option is to get 2 x t4 helms..

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Old 05/14/07, 12:43 PM   #642
Runnybabbit
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Quasar View Post
Anybody else look at that staff and cry that the Strength isn't Agility?
Personally, I was preoccupied with trying desperately to staunch the bleeding from my eyes.

A more optimistic take on the stats would be that the Strength on that staff allows you to drop some Strength from elsewhere in your gear in favor of more Agility-heavy item(s) perhaps. I do wonder how Blizzard will approach our itemization moving forward though, as I came to the same conclusion as Kazanir re: STR vs AGI for kitty dps while playing with Emmerald's numbers a while back. If they want to make druid leather distinct from rogue leather and do so in a way that's not as ham-handed as putting class-specific modifiers and bonuses on lots of items, then it sure seems like they need to revisit the relative value of STR and AGI for these classes. For purposes of keeping itemization streamlined however, having significant overlap between [Good for Druids] and [Good for Rogues] isn't a bad thing at all.

Regarding the lack of tanking stats, I've found it's generally good policy to take the advice of many regular posters here and wait until we have a more complete picture of how Blizzard has populated a given tier's loot tables before raising a big stink about itemization holes. In other words, it's possible that there's an evolutionary Earthwarden/Wildfury Greatstaff out there that hasn't (a) dropped on PTR yet or (b) been implemented yet.

Last edited by Runnybabbit : 05/14/07 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Formatting.

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Old 05/14/07, 2:25 PM   #643
Quasar
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Dragonmaw
Originally Posted by Runnybabbit View Post
Personally, I was preoccupied with trying desperately to staunch the bleeding from my eyes.

A more optimistic take on the stats would be that the Strength on that staff allows you to drop some Strength from elsewhere in your gear in favor of more Agility-heavy item(s) perhaps.
I don't even pay attention to Strength on my tanking gear. If it's there, yippee, but it's nowhere near a high priority, hence I don't have a lot of pieces I have sitting around where I could find myself replacing them with an agility item. I know if it were Agility, it would be obscenely amazing, but a bear can dream. Not like I'd ever see that anyway, in any case.

JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?

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Old 05/14/07, 3:27 PM   #644
Jini
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Solstice View Post
Hmm, anyone else having difficulty deciding which meta to put in t4 post patch?

Problem is, it's the best tanking headpiece available at that level of progression by a looong way, but also the best for dps. Gladiators and that new badge reward helm pale in comparison. I'm caught between keeping the powerful earthstorm (18stam 5% stun resist) I have at the moment or switching to that new one, relentless earthstorm (12agi 3% crit damage) which incidentally has had it's requirements reduced to 2 of each color if I recall correctly.

I suppose the other option is to get 2 x t4 helms..
My, theoretical, approach is to socket it with powerful earthstorm, then swapping in the DPS gem when I move on to the next better hat.

In other words, use the meta socket for whichever role you emphasize then swap when you get the next better piece for your primary role.

Unless, of course, you can get two.

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Old 05/14/07, 3:32 PM   #645
 sordee
Priest for Hire
 
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Sordee
Tauren Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Boevis View Post
And that's not how Itemization works in WoW, 102 X + 52 Y =/= 154 Z.

All stats (except Sta) and ratings cost 230 'points' each.

Defense: (156*230)^(3/2) = 6,796,395
Resilience: (102*230)^(3/2) = 3,593,287
Difference = 3,203,107
3,203,107^(2/3)=21729/230 = 94.5

So for the cost of 156 Defense, you can get 102 Resilience and 94 Agility which is ~6.38% Dodge, 3.76% Crit, and 188 armor, compared to the 5.2% Avoidance from Defense.
Every needs to make sure they understand Boevis's math. It is not as clear cut as saying that Resillience and Agility is better than Defense.

Since he uses the (^3/2) to denote a stat split on an item, you have to have an item that actually has both Agility and Resilience to take advantage of that math. But really how many items have agility and resilience? Until you have an item created as such, this math is useless.

Taken as a pure stat, Defense is still better point for point.

Thus when making decision on one-off stat increases (as in the case of gems or enchants), Defense is still a better stat.
Also note, multi-colored gems split points on a linear scale, not on the logarithm scale.

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