Septus

I'm also interested in some suggestions for my tanking gear.

I've identified a lot of possible gear upgrades, but I'm not sure what my optimal tanking upgrades would be, for the minimal time spent. We raid three nights a week doing Gruul/Mag/SSC(just starting SSC), and we're only now doing Kara for "off-nights," and I wasn't raiding when we started on Kara, so there's tons of gear that I could use there. I'm thinking about going for the Treemender's belt, and I do Shartuul's Transporter as often as possible. We don't do a whole lot of heroics in guild though, and I think some of the tougher ones may be unlikely. That necklace of the deep sounds like a good option, but the barbed choker of discipline seems better and the Maiden seems to like dropping it for us(however, I'm currently about 27 def rating higher than what I need).

 

Celthis

This is something I've been looking at recently. Replacing GT with TW will net you 5 armor / 5 stamina / -24 defense rating. In bear, this is ~28 armor, ~80 hp, and the loss of 10 defense skill (= 0.4% miss, 0.4% dodge). Are the small bonuses to armor and health really worth the loss of 0.8% avoidance? I haven't really made up my mind on this issue, but it seems like the avoidance might come out ahead.

And besides, it's a purple

 

Jini

I recently got my 5th piece of tier 4 gear and am wondering how to optimize my performance. I've looked used Hugehoss' spreadsheet and it points me down the avoidance path. My problem is that as I use more tier 4 with shifting nightseyes I am finding my unbuffed health dropping with each upgrade.

I recently started ditching the nightseyes and resocketing with SSoEs in a vain attempt to get back in the mid14k health range.

My general stats I use for tanking are 33k armor, 14.3k health, 36.7% dodge. I'm looking to replace some agility enchants now for stamina ones. This will further push down my dodge and my health up a bit.

I guess what I really need to do is to find a way to boost health at the cost of armor, not dodge.

I'm thinking of ditching Zierhut Treads and getting my Heavy Clefthoof boots back out of the bank for some more oomph. I'm even thinking of ditching the tier 4 legs for tanking and getting my HCL leggings for more health. The problem is that both of these changes will cost dodge as well as armor.

Any further ideas?

 

tunah

Sozar:
[Necklace of the Deep] (sta) or [Necklace of the Juggernaut] over strength of the untamed
[Heavy Clefthoof Vest] over wastewalker chest

Septus:
As above, [Cowl of Beastly Rage] or [Stag-Helm of Malorne] over purple hat.
[Necklace of the Deep] (sta) or [Necklace of the Juggernaut] over ravenguard
[Thoriumweave Cloak] or [Gilded Thorium Cloak] over burnoose
[Veteran's Dragonhide Bracers] or [Forestheart Bracers] over umberhowl
[Veteran's Leather Belt] or [Tree-Mender's Belt] over manimal's
[Ring of Unyielding Force] or [Shermanar Great-Ring] over mok'nathal clan ring

Trinkets: I tend to use 2 of [Mark of Tyranny], [Violet Badge], [Argussian Compass] most of the time, only swapping in pocketwatch for... heroic BM as far as I remember. This is on the same basis that sta/armor > avoidance at that level - does the presence of a rare clicky make up for it?

Enchants: are +6stats chest, +12sta bracer, +15agi gloves the best in those slots? See some variations.

 

osirisunnefer

In case people don't know of it, the TBC Bear Tanking Gear List is a great resource for finding items. It has prioritised lists of gear per slot that give a rough guideline to alternatives and upgrades to your current items. Its easy to deduce what items to go for

 

Liar

If you need Defense still and chose to use Def/Sta or just Def gems, 12 Defense on bracers is the way to go. See it like this, 12 Stamina is "worth" 1 gem, 12 Defense is "worth" 1.5 gems. Try and get the max out of your item budget

(Same applies for 12 Agi on boots instead of 12 Sta. Always go for the Agi.)

 

Boevis

I'll keep taking Boars Speed until they give me a Sta/Speed metagem.

 

SS_Keera

Yes its a nice guideline if you need advice. Nevertheless i would take it for 100% when the list says an item is an upgrade that it really is. For example if you are at the crit cap every gladiator item looses a part of its use, although they have nice stamina and so on. Generally i'm not a big fan of using resillience over defense. It may be small but i like the additional avoidance you get from defense, where resillience gives you no additional benefit.
Furthermore i would take [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] over [Argussian Compass] in almost every situation, because the amount of damage the shield absorbs (68dmg per hit) is nearly nothing.

Long story short: It doesn't relieve you from thinking

 

tunah

Very good point, I was assuming uncrittable, it's a decent place to put def. If your priorities are:
1) Uncrittable
2) HP/armor
3) Avoidance
then +15resil to chest, +12sta bracers might beat +6stats/+150HP chest, +12def bracers.
If you value stam highly enough then the best way to handle anti-crit is to stack it heavily in places where the stam alternatives are weak, chest enchant seems to be one.

Nope, because your goal isn't to collect the most item points, it's to collect the most tank points (using whatever system you choose). In a tanking role, I value 1STA(=15.45HP) over 1AGI(=0.07%dodge + 0.04%crit), so i'd take 12STA.
And yeah, boar's is better still, I have 12sta on [Heavy Clefthoof Boots] and boar's on [Zierhut's Lost Treads] when I get a couple more shards.

 

dukes

If you're an OT or multi-role player (tank for some, dps for some) then you should always consider the implications on the DPS role of what you enchant. I will generally always go with 12 agility on boots, because although I favour stamina over dodge for tanking, stamina is less useful for DPS purposes. The same goes for 12 stamina/15 resillience/12 defence enchants - if you're a multi-role player, it may be better to consider swapping out other items and grabbing +4 all stats/+6 all stats on bracers and chest. It's part of the reason I've held off getting the Tether or the RoS neck. The hit is useful, but agility is just better in general. I'm actually considering getting a Necklace of the Deep and sticking 8 agi or 4agi/6stam gems in it for tanking as I'm now crit immune without the defence from Juggernaut (T6 gloves last night so I swapped in Timelapse shard and found I have a bit of leeway on the crit cap now).

 

Liar

This is correct. Stamina is king, and I prefer to socket 12 Sta over 4 Agi/6 Sta if there are no good bonuses to get with (I have a Shifting Nightseye in [Veteran's Dragonhide Bracers] and plan to put 2 into [Belt of Natural Power] if I ever get it). However there are exceptions for me. I chose to go for Agility enchants on boots for two reasons:
1) You get more bang for the buck if you go with Agility than Stamina item budget wise and this allows you to ignore Agility a bit more via gearing/socketing. Some choose to go all the way with Stamina, no exceptions and all, and while I am a Stamina freak I won't ignore the benefits of Dodge either.
2) My tanking boots ([Boots of Natural Grace]) also double as DPS piece. But even if they didn't, I would still go for 12 Agility for the reasons mentioned above.

Boar's is great, no doubt. If I would still go for Stamina on my tanking boots, I'd take that enchant. As a matter of fact, I use this enchant on my resto and PvP boots.

 

tunah

For sure. The reason for 12agi has to be that it's the biggest benefit for the intended purpose, not because it's worth more item points - vitality is worth even more! Anticrit is special because it has to go somewhere (or rather, its benefit is very nonlinear).

 

tunah

I think this is flawed logic.
If stamina is better point-for-point, and you have AGI on gems (other than to get bonuses), then you geared wrong. Similarly for if you had AGI on items that you could swap out for more STA.
Replace your AGI with STA until STA is no longer better point-for-point. And if you still have AGI gems, keep going until 12STA is no longer better than 8AGI, for good measure. Congrats on your upgrade.

So if your gear choices make sense, and 1STA is better than 1AGI, you should enchant 12STA. Going with agility doesn't 'allow you to ignore Agility a bit more via gearing/socketing', because you're already doing that to the extent that you can.

 

Maax

Next patch it will also reduce periodic damage, which may be useful for some fights.

Devs: Our nerfs will block out the sun!
Druids: Then we will tank in the shade.

 

Liar

I do value Stamina alot but there are limits to that. 12 Stamina > 8 Agi, clearly. 8 Stamina > 8 Agility, not so much. While being a stamina freak is all nice and dandy, I try to game the item budget points as good as I can. And in this case, 12 Agility is more valuable than 12 Stamina just like 12 Defense on Bracers is more valuable than 1x8 Defense gem and 1x4 Defense/6 Stamina gem is because you would end up losing 2x12 Sta gems for that (so in return the 12 Defense on the bracers is worth 18 Stamina, 6 more than if you just enchanted it with 12 Defense). I think we can all agree on the latter part.

And while I would not put any Agility gems into sockets with bad socket bonuses, I will enchant my boots with Agility because of the fact that 12 Agility would have been worth 18 Stamina via sockets. I do get where you are coming from though and I think the discussion all revolves around "Stamina vs Avoidance" and I already said I agree that Stamina is better, I just think that it is worth it on the boots.

EDIT: Tunah, what would you put into [Belt of Natural Power]?

With stamina gems you get 24 stamina vs 8 agility and 12+4 stamina. I'd most definitely go for the latter route but you seem to value 1 point of stamina alot more than 1 agility, so would you go for the 24 stamina route?

 

Sozar

Is it really worth it to go to the Clefthoof Vest? I'm already uncritable so the defense is a wasted stat. I'd only gain 200 armor and 9 stam at the cost of 2% to dodge.

 

SS_Keera

Defense is not wasted. It increases the enemies miss chance (0.4% in your case) and your dodge chance (also 0.4%), which makes up for nearly half of the 2% you are loosing. The 200 armor make up to 1100 in bear if I'm not mistaking. So 1100 armor and 9 stamina vs. 1.2% dodge.
Personally I'd say armor >> dodge until you are at least near the 75% cap. Better have general mitigation than have to rely on some occasional dodge.

 

dukes

There are advantages and disadvantages either way.

By using the wastewalker, you miss out on pure tank features, but gain OT features. If you put agi/hit gems in the Wastewalker it becomes a very good DPS chestpiece and nice for offtanking as it will give you a lot of threat generation. If you dump stamina gems in there, its also not bad for offtanking but loses some value, and you can't really use it as a pure DPS chest either in case you don't have a second.

By taking the Heavy Clefthoof, you can set up the Wastewalker for pure DPS stats (4hit/4agi or 8agi gems) and stack stamina in the Clefthoof. By having 2 chests, you can have different enchants, enhancing the difference between the two further. However, the Heavy Clefthoof is more suitable for a pure tank role than an offtank role, unless your other tanking stats are severely lacking (can't really check armoury whilst at work). The other thing about the Heavy Clefthoof is that it's purely for tanking - you gain no threat generation out of using it.

 

TheOnly

Be very careful with enchant swap-outs. Think of every enchant in terms of "socket cost"

For example, boots. Don't go with stam on them over agility (unless you are using boar's vs cat's).

12 agility is 1.5 "sockets", while 12 stam is just one "socket".

You can swap out 12 agi in sockets and gain 18 stam, while swapping out 12 agi from the enchant you only gain 12 stam.

In short, you gain more from swapping sockets to stam than most enchants, so do them first. If you have a 12 stam boot enchant, and even ONE agility gem, you are unoptimal.

Only a good socket bonus would be reason to bend this rule.

Similar reasoning for defense enchants versus stamina enchants or +all stats enchants applies.

For example, the +12 defense to bracer enchant versus +4 all stats. For tanking purposes, +12 defense is =~1.5 sockets. +4 all stats is .83 sockets. Lets say you have +12 defense in gems somewhere and the +4 all stats bracer enchant -- you could do better by gettting the defense on the bracer and swapping in 12 stam and 4 agil or 8 agil and 6 stam for the sockets.

Of course, if every socket you have is +12 stam, and you want more, enchants or gear are the only way.

 

TheOnly

Except that the benefit from avoidance and stam is non-linear. The flaw in your logic here is that if at your current gear level, 1 STA is more tankpoints than 1 AGI, you should always go for more STA. You indicate that 1 STA is worth less if you have more, meaning that after enough of it 1AGI is better. But you forget that the inverse is true of AGI.

If 1 STA is worth more than 1 AGI at your current gear level, there is ANOTHER WAY to make 1 AGI worth more: Stack more AGI/avoidance. The more you have the more it is worth, so if you have enough of it it will eventually become optimal.



Gearing by "linear programming" where you look at what stat is best incrimentally RIGHT NOW (as in, what +1 is better now) is not optimal in the long run. If you stack stam until 1 AGI is equally good, you did not optimize! At that point, by the same strategy you will find yourself adding AGI and finding out that stam is devalued and you should resocket/enchant for less stam than you had at your "peak".

If at your current level, +1 stam is better than +1 agi, that alone is not enough to figure out how to spend a mix of 100 item budget points.
+150 stam may not be as good as +105 stam and +30AGI. And +100 AGI might just be a lot closer to +150 stam than you think, because of the nonlinearity.



In short, because Stam becomes less valuable the more you have and AGI becomes more valuable, optimizing for the long run must include a target goal and understanding of the bounds and approximate values around that goal.

Even with crappy gear, if you stack enough AGI it gets better than stam. Of course, 13000 raid buffed HP with 55% dodge is not necessarily optimal.

 

Klaerth

My druid is currently sitting at 26.5k armor, 13.8k health, and 37.3% dodge, all unbuffed and in bear. I can sacrifice 2% dodge for around 800 more health via a trinket, if need be...I'm currently using Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch and the Badge of Tenacity.

Another feral druid in my guild is sitting around 14.2k health, 24.0% dodge, and 29.8k armor, all unbuffed and in bear. I'd like to say that my massively additional amount of dodge is worth more than the armor, but I've strangely heard a bit of opposition from some people; any opinions, here? This is (hopefully) just to silence those few doubting tongues.

Once I nab my T4 gloves and the Heroic Badge ring, I'll be up to around 30k armor whilst losing about 1% dodge, which'll solve that issue anyway, but until then...I'd like to hear opinions, because the naysayers have been mildly annoying me.

Also, for tanking...Earthwarden, or Feral Staff of Lashing? You lose 1100 armor when you go with the later, but gain 2.05% dodge; which would be considered more important, in this case? I have both, I'm just wondering which to use.

 

◊ Vaccine

I'm a big fan of Earthwarden or was at that level. The feral combat rating shouldn't be underestimated.

Armour is a great stat but I wouldn't focus on it in exclusively like your fellow druid is doing. I'm sitting at about 32k armour due to the t4 4 piece bonus and its really nice. But I've also got a decent amount of dodge too (35% ish I think) unbuffed.

The Armory

Currently looking to drop a little defense I think, maybe I'll change the bracer gem. I've started to use Conniver's instead of Clefthoof chest on many fights for the extra agility and still remain over the crit cap when you add in res.