Bear tank item comparisons - Page 5

KalelScilla · 02/08/07, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bad Luck

Int and Spirit both help in powershifting to increase your yellow damage output and getting the most out of available Energy. Also, adding 15 Int/Spirit to an item is cheaper in the item budget than adding 3 more Agi/Str after a certain threshhold. Taking away 15 Int will not add 15 Agi to an item, that is not how the itemization formula works. The set bonuses are also very nice, and some pieces can do well in a tanking slot when taking your other gear into account.

I think bear tanking is far more common than cat dps at least it has been for me. If they're going to bother making 3 sets and only one feral, and then bias the items towards something like powershifting (which is fine, but is a niche within the smaller niche of cat dps) I'd like to see a real tanking set that puts those int/spi points towards defense/dodge/more armor. Do you really want to be wearing your manimal's clutch to tank in the black temple while warriors are wearing full TBC epics?

Tyvi · 02/08/07, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by KalelScilla

Do you really want to be wearing your manimal's clutch to tank in the black temple while warriors are wearing full TBC epics?

Nah, we'll probably wear full specialized blues by then. And I am not even kidding. oO

Emmerald · 02/11/07, 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by Oaken

Unfortunately, the results are a little contradictory.

Your model has [Gilded Thorium Cloak] > [Thoriumweave Cloak]. If I substitute the values in for it with the above model, the order is reversed.

Similarly, your model shows [Wind Trader's Band] as significantly better than both [Heavy Dark Iron Ring] and [Item not found!] while this model has Wind Trader's about equal to Heavy Dark Iron and worse than the Signet Ring.

Not sure if this is attributable to the starting values assumed or what it is.

If the difference is small, then the difference is most likely attributable to to starting values. The attribute values are strongly dependent on the base values used in the calculation. It could also be that we were using different talents in the calculation.

Besides (from any other than a mathematical perspective), if the difference is small, the difference isn't really important in game terms. They're both great items I'd just love to have.

Emmerald · 02/11/07, 4:55 AM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

I'm going to voice a concern. I think lists like this are doing us a great disservice because the ignore the fact that we need to combine all the pieces into a set of tanking gear. Each piece might be the most valuable in a slot all by its lonesome, but once we pass the 156 DR limit (with Resilience worth approx. 1.5 DR per RR) those points are all useless. Then we need to build up our armor and stam to the max. (I think it's clear that our advantages lie in the mitigation arena, as opposed to trying to max avoidance at the expense of large armor and hp values.) The challenge with gear at the moment, for me, is trying to increase armor values while maintaining crit immunity and still increasing hp. It's proving to be a difficult dance.

Very true. However, I think most people will reach that understanding at some point. By the time they have the gear to max out certain stats, they probably have gained enough experience to make their own judgments regarding what they need.

I'm the first to point out that the list provides only a snapshot into the actual values, at the specific point given by the base attributes. At any other point, you would either have to calculate the values yourself (e.g. using the Excel, though it's not perfect yet) or use your own judgment regarding your needs.

Feorthas · 02/11/07, 5:10 AM

For what it's worth, I just tanked Heroic Underbog and I'm damn happy I have 24k armor (Imp Mark); however, 12k HP is the bare minimum I want to have on my next trip in there. Regarding the effectiveness of dodge, my 21% is enough to make misses relatively common but I'd still rather stack additional stamina over the additional dodge rate simply because things hit so damn hard.

Hell, I'd give up 10% dodge for an additional 6000 hitpoints--maybe even for 3000--in a heartbeat. While that 10% dodge wont necessarily keep me up through a pair of max-damage hits from Bog Lord (I saw 6.5k a couple of times. 6.5k on 24000 armor (~69% reduction)) but the additional hitpoints give my healers time to react. Yes, I know that X dodge is equivalent to Y armor or Z additional hitpoints but I'd feel more comfortable stacking some more armor or hitpoints just so that it becomes nearly impossible for a mob to burst me down while tanking.

Boevis · 02/11/07, 9:20 AM

I can't stress enough the value of enchants and buffing to druids, it's the area where I make warriors cry. Getting 90 Agility from full enchants (I in no way endorse druids having to pick up enchanting to get +4 stats on each ring >< ) 88 from consumables/imp motw, and another 77 from Grace of Air totals for 255 more Agility above my gear, another 17.59% Dodge is rather amazing. Throw in Blessing of Kings for another 10% more agility.

Also, just for giggles ... today in Morass I had 877 Stamina in Bear (improved Fort, Blood Pact and MotW weren't improved, and 20 sta food) Considering that was with Earthwarden, Ghoul Skin Tunic, and Defilers Shoulders, I'm convinced we can easilly break 1k Stamina. Any Druids able to provide a screenshot of their stam? (Kaz/Zyla, I'm looking at you)

Kazanir · 02/11/07, 9:58 AM

In my bear gear I have 597 stam in caster form, unbuffed. I'm short 8 stam on my bracers since I can't find anyone with 12 stam (I have 4 stats atm.) Adding 102 from Imp. Fort, 85 from Imp. Pact, 19 from Imp. Mark, and 30 from some Furious Crawdad we have 841 stam in caster form. Going to bear that would put me at 1009. ^_^

Here's my new problem:

I just picked up a +5 Def +4 Dodge epic gem (Stalwart Fire Opal -- unique YAY) and I don't know which gear to put it in, since I'm not sure how long it will be before I replace my currently socketable items (shoulders, chest, and boots) with pieces from the Gladiator set (or for boots, just something with more armor.) Woe is me.

Edit: That is with an Earthwarden on, so I could replace that with a +79 stam green and also add another 5 by replacing my Clefthide Leg Armor with Nethercleft Leg Armor. (*cough*waste of nether*cough*)

Boevis · 02/11/07, 10:59 AM

The Nether patches, kits, thread, whatever, remind me of my arguments with people about Improved Mark, +4 to stats, Nightfall, and +15FR to cloak.

At some point, getting even just an extra .01% above what you can do right now is worth any cost, but until you're looking at having "the best possible" or desperately need an edge to pass a hurdle that even flasks won't pass ... save your money.

Kazanir · 02/11/07, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

The Nether patches, kits, thread, whatever, remind me of my arguments with people about Improved Mark, +4 to stats, Nightfall, and +15FR to cloak.

At some point, getting even just an extra .01% above what you can do right now is worth any cost, but until you're looking at having "the best possible" or desperately need an edge to pass a hurdle that even flasks won't pass ... save your money.

Yeah. It's also a question of efficiency. Right now, so early in the game, Nethers are valuable for a lot bigger things than a Spellthread or a Netherarmor. But long-term, I bet more Nethers will be used on those than any other item, once the crafted stuff has been surpassed but the enchants are still useful. Time will tell though.'

Edit: I made my Ash Tempered Legguards a Nethercleft Leg Armor today. This is what happens when you can't upgrade your gear until the Gladiator season. <_<

Melthar · 02/11/07, 3:59 PM

Sitting at 544 unbuffed caster stam currently. Using the normal assortment of umberhowl, verdant, thoriumweave and two piece heavy clefthoof (legs/chest) The options available for upgrade pre-raid/arena seem somewhat limited at the moment. I'd be curious to see what path others are taking to reach crit immunity, as with those two pieces, enchants, gems and rings/neck I'm only sitting on 418 defense. Whilst this is above the 415 target it doesn't leave much room for changing to other gear.

Kazanir · 02/11/07, 4:54 PM

Right now I'm getting Defense from the following sources:

Cobrascale Hood enchanted with Glyph of the Defender (KoT Revered) for +16 DR.
Barbed Choker of Discipline (Maiden of Virtue, Karazhan) for +13 DR.
Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless with Greater Inscription of Warding (Aldor Exalted) for +10 DR, Stalwart Fire Opal (Talon King Ikiss Heroic) for +5 DR, and an Enduring Deep Peridot for +3 DR.
Heavy Clefthoof Vest for +28 DR. (Socketed with stam gems.)
Heavy Clefthoof Boots for +24 DR, with one Enduring Deep Peridot for +3 DR.
Iron Band of the Merciless (Old Hillsbrad Normal, 1st boss) for +17 DR.
Violet Signet (Honored, Karazhan) for +14 DR.
Earthwarden (Cenarion Expedition Exalted) for +24 DR.

That totals out to 157 Defense Rating which is just enough to get 415.x Defense skill. You are right -- it leaves very little wiggle room, except for the blessing of being able to change gems around. However, once I get some Gladiator gear (shooting for chest and shoulders first) the resilience on those 2 pieces will eliminate my need for Clefthoof in the boot slot, hopefully letting me get more armor there instead. In every slot I didn't mention I use the max-armor blues and greens from quest rewards. ^_^

Zyla · 02/11/07, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

I can't stress enough the value of enchants and buffing to druids, it's the area where I make warriors cry. Getting 90 Agility from full enchants (I in no way endorse druids having to pick up enchanting to get +4 stats on each ring >< ) 88 from consumables/imp motw, and another 77 from Grace of Air totals for 255 more Agility above my gear, another 17.59% Dodge is rather amazing. Throw in Blessing of Kings for another 10% more agility.

Also, just for giggles ... today in Morass I had 877 Stamina in Bear (improved Fort, Blood Pact and MotW weren't improved, and 20 sta food) Considering that was with Earthwarden, Ghoul Skin Tunic, and Defilers Shoulders, I'm convinced we can easilly break 1k Stamina. Any Druids able to provide a screenshot of their stam? (Kaz/Zyla, I'm looking at you)

lemme see what i can do, I know I've hit over 950.

Got my Earthwarden today :D..

Zyla · 02/12/07, 12:02 AM

Here we go:

Standard buffs, I can definitely push it higher with another rocket launcher and +12 sta to bracer. \

<3 my level 68 blue pants of 90 sta :D

Cluey · 02/12/07, 3:54 AM

Could those of you who have made it to crit immunity please list what you are using?
I have been going through the options and I am not convinced its not more of a compromise than just using the traditional best druid item in the spot.

There are only four leather items with +defense skill rating on them.
Expanding on them to list all items greater than ilvl 90 with defense skill rating which a druid can use you get this list.

Are you going for 12 stamina or 12 defense rating enchant on your bracers?

Tierce · 02/12/07, 7:23 AM

Two things for the more experienced Bear tanks

1. How much importance are you putting on hit rating right now. This became an issue in the endgame in AQ40 and Naxx, but I haven't seen it being as much of an issue so far in the expansion instances. I'm currently using some of the yellow sockets on my clefthoof pieces for 6 hit rating, but I'm starting to wonder if I should forget about that concern and switch in other gems.

2. What glove enchant are you going with, 15 agility or 2% Threat?