I appreciate the lay-out and the intelligence put behind the "DruGear" Excel spreadsheet but I think I found an error. It seems that SotF is not factored into MobCrit but the max on CritReduction is set at 2.6%. The max should be 5.6% if you don't have SotF and 2.6% if you do, right? Or MobCrit should include 3% from SotF and the max on that should be 5.6%. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Similar to the above post, I am trying figure out what "baseline" tanking stats I should be asking my druids to have. I do not have access to any wow sites to look at talents and am not that familiar with feral talents, but for our Karazhan runs we are doing 1 warrior/1 feral druid for a tank.
Since I am a warrior, I have a list of stats that warriors should have before zoning in to a raid, 490 defense, 12k HP, etc.
Could any of you please enlighten me as to what I should be asking the druids to shoot for? Assuming they have that druid talent that has -3 crit, what level of defense would they need? What is a good amount of dodge, armor, HP unbuffed?
Edit: I see that its 415 defense for druids. Any other opinions as to stats for a Karazhan offtank would be appreciated.
Your base/ideal stats are pretty accurate, however they're slanted towards one type of build. Mainly avoidance. I just tanked Karazhan for the first time last night and I think I did quite well, but the ratio of my stats are a bit different from your ideal. Maybe I'm just an armor whore, who knows ;)
HP ~12k unbuffed
armor: 24000 without mark or anything. I expect to be putting this higher once I get Verdant Gloves.
Dodge ~ 25%
defense = 380 + some additional resilience. I don't think I took any crits all night. I still haven't parsed my combat log but I did check that the first boss, attumen, got 0 crits on me.
Basically, slightly higher ac and slightly lower dodge. Also, don't forget about resilience. The stat I noticed I need more of is mainly hp. The spectral valets hit for ~3k, more than the bosses, and having a total pool of 14k or so, buffed, makes it difficult on healers. They really need to be providing well timed max rank heals to keep up.
Edit: the resilience isn't by choice, it just happens to be on the gear I'm using. If the amounts are close, +defense is better, of course.
My current bear stats are 12.6k hp, 27.1k armor, 382 def, 23% dodge with mark. However I intend to swap my guise of devourer/cleansed fel pauldrons/ghoul skin tunic with the blue pvp rewards socketed for maximum stamina which should give me something like almost 15k hp, 26k armor, 400 def(enchants for the def), 25% dodge with mark and 70ish resilience on top of that. (6x 12 sta blue gems and 18 sta metagem, will totally ignore the resilience socket bonuses since I will be completely uncrittable with that setup anyway).
Oh, speaking of theorycrafting gear sets, does anyone know a wowequip-like program that accurately includes the TBC stat conversions and talents? Ctprofiles seems to have completely wrong calculations right now and doesn't have a socketing feature yet :/
My target unbuffed stats for pre-Karazhan/pre-heroic tanking gear are:
12k health
~26k armor
~19% dodge
crit immunity (combination of defense and resilience)
In the setup I am aiming for the Cowl of the Guiltless could be swapped with the Stylin' Purple Hat to gain about 2 percent dodge but lose .8% crit avoidance.
I'd like to get my dodge higher, but the available items seem to either have agility or armor and I'm going with armor.
The reason I emphasized stamina in my builds is that for an all-around tank like karazhan needs, a pure armor build has severe deficiencies against any mobs that do mixed damage or spiky damage. While armor whoring has its place (and I definately have an armorwhore set to use too) a stamina build has much more flexibility and is generally easier on the healers than a full-out armor set.
In reality there are three sets of tanking gear I would like to have to chose between. High physical mitigation, high health and high avoidance.
I posted the physical mitigation set previously as it is the one I am closest to completing.
The other sets would have the following stats:
Health:
~18.5k health
~21k armor
~19% dodge from gear
crit immunity
Avoidance:
~14.8k health
~23.5k armor
~27% dodge from gear
crit immunity
Pretty much all of the items from the three sets I posted are available from the level 70 non-heroic/non-raid instances, with the exception of the health set. However, I think that it is fairly close.
I don't see why a tank couldn't get at least one set.
Great info and discussion. I'm curious why the Verdant Gloves were left out of the original sheet? I did the calculations in a spreadsheet, and unless I've set up the equations incorrectly, I show the verdant gloves having a damage soake of 3088, which is by far better than the gloves of the hidden temple. If my math is not wrong, is there any reason it isn't listed as the front-runner?
Turns out the GMs gave me back an umberhowl collar and verdant gloves, so now I'm pretty set. My current setup is about 13.5k hp, 20k armor, and 30% dodge, with 409 defense. I'm using my DPS shoulders and DPS cape as well, don't have assassination or thoriumweave yet. Using Staff of Nat Fury instead of Earthwarden.. I think I can get my armor up a bit more.
Opinion is a medium between knowledge and ignorance.
Hmm, that Cobrascale Hood is pretty nice. Slightly better armor, slightly worse avoidance and stam, but it gets you better offensive stats, especially the hit raiting.
Of course, the stylin' purple hat is more available by orders of magnitude. They're typically up on the AH for 70-100 gold on my server, and the pattern isn't all that uncommon.
The reason I emphasized stamina in my builds is that for an all-around tank like karazhan needs, a pure armor build has severe deficiencies against any mobs that do mixed damage or spiky damage. While armor whoring has its place (and I definately have an armorwhore set to use too) a stamina build has much more flexibility and is generally easier on the healers than a full-out armor set.
And beleive me, even with my armor/dodge...Theres several instances ive seen recently of having 18 -200 life left in sticky situations before my healers pick me back up.
And sup ave? ^^
Originally Posted by Apate
Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
What have you brought to this discussion? The usual vacuous and contentless tripe that you contribute to these forums - no more and no less.
I just upgraded a few of my items: Defilers Shoulders to Assassination (With vendor-bought +4 Def Gems! I love my guilds jewelcrafters) Ghoul Skin Tunic to Wardens Hauberk (+19 Agi +4 Sta from the sockets) and as a sidegrade from my Verdant Gloves - Wastewalker Gloves (4 def, 3 agi, 10 stam from gems) Once my jewelcrafters wake up, I'll probably go with Enduring Talasites in the Yellow slots, and a mix of Delicate Living Ruby's and Shifting Nightseye in the Reds. I am thus far unimpressed with most of the gems for tanking, hopefully I can find a couple more defense items (without resorting to clefthoof I hope) and can switch my Defense gems for Agility/Hit or something. Having an epic gem that's 5 Dodge 6 Stam is just insulting when the 'rare' Shifting Nightseye is the same dodge % and gives at least some crit.
Fun fact about the Shoulderpads of Assassination, currently they are farmable by a stealth group. I had a rough time with 2x Rogue and myself, but that's because they never waited for the arcane bolts before coming back in LOS. Basically, you LOS his Arcane Explosion, taking this time to heal/bandage, and then you want whoever is tanking to be the first back in LOS of Ikiss so only they get hit by the arcane bolts. When he poly's someone, try to run him around the pillar, so unless he blinks to them (he shouldn't) they'll already be out of LOS. If I understand it correctly, he blinks to the 2nd person on his threat list within LOS, so even if you bring a healer, with proper positioning he will always blink in melee range. Interrupts, cast time delays, stuns, and silences don't work on him, so LOS is the only way to avoid the damage, but he doesn't hit very hard beyond that, and the polymorph heals it's target as usual.
It shouldn't be hard at all to hit the defense cap as a bear, honestly. Currently I am at 413 def/ 0 resilience, BUT I have been as high as 421 defense/4 resilience (the resilience was just enough to compensate for the last 2 points of defense, and it was "free").
Gear:
Helm of the Claw, Enduring Talasite, Powerful Earthstorm Diamond (Karazhan vendor), Glyph of the Defender (caverns of time) - 20 defense, 4 resilience)
Strength of the Untamed (Cen Exp Revered neck) - 19 defense
Assassination Shoulders, Enduring Talasite, Enduring Talasite, Knight enchant (Scryer honored) - 21 defense
Cryptstalker Cloak - 10 defense
Spymistress Bracers, 12 def enchant - 12 defense
Wastewalker Gloves, Enduring Talasite - 4 defense
Edgewalker Boots, Enduring Talasite - 4 defense
Violet Signet (Friendly) - 13 defense
Unbreakable Ring - 17 defense
Earthwarden - 24 defense
Regal Protectorate - 26 defense
Now, I've replaced Helm of the Claw and Assassination Shoulders with Malorne, Cryptstalker with Gilded Thoriumweave, Regal Protectorate back to Smoking Heart, and upgraded the Violet Signet a couple of times. Next step is either Skulker's Greaves or Juggernaught neck to get back to uncrittable (I'll probably pull something out of the bank again until then). Marshal bracers for the small +resilience are really tempting too. I'm hemmorhaging armor (Assassination legs over Ash Covered, Wastewalker over Verdant gloves, Spymistress over the armor bracers, Edgewalker over Supple Leather), but I'm picking up a LOT of dodge - I'm at 45% in Karazhan with Shaman/Paladin(kings), and the healers can keep up, so the extra hit/ dps let's us clear trash faster.
I just upgraded a few of my items: Defilers Shoulders to Assassination (With vendor-bought +4 Def Gems! I love my guilds jewelcrafters) Ghoul Skin Tunic to Wardens Hauberk (+19 Agi +4 Sta from the sockets) and as a sidegrade from my Verdant Gloves - Wastewalker Gloves (4 def, 3 agi, 10 stam from gems) Once my jewelcrafters wake up, I'll probably go with Enduring Talasites in the Yellow slots, and a mix of Delicate Living Ruby's and Shifting Nightseye in the Reds. I am thus far unimpressed with most of the gems for tanking, hopefully I can find a couple more defense items (without resorting to clefthoof I hope) and can switch my Defense gems for Agility/Hit or something. Having an epic gem that's 5 Dodge 6 Stam is just insulting when the 'rare' Shifting Nightseye is the same dodge % and gives at least some crit.
Fun fact about the Shoulderpads of Assassination, currently they are farmable by a stealth group. I had a rough time with 2x Rogue and myself, but that's because they never waited for the arcane bolts before coming back in LOS. Basically, you LOS his Arcane Explosion, taking this time to heal/bandage, and then you want whoever is tanking to be the first back in LOS of Ikiss so only they get hit by the arcane bolts. When he poly's someone, try to run him around the pillar, so unless he blinks to them (he shouldn't) they'll already be out of LOS. If I understand it correctly, he blinks to the 2nd person on his threat list within LOS, so even if you bring a healer, with proper positioning he will always blink in melee range. Interrupts, cast time delays, stuns, and silences don't work on him, so LOS is the only way to avoid the damage, but he doesn't hit very hard beyond that, and the polymorph heals it's target as usual.
It's easily farmable without ever LoS'ing anything - just have the rogues interrupt poly/arcane explosion, the only time you need to run is if you get unlucky and he immunes right before he does it. Thanks to this easy stealth run I have ~150 spirit shards. :)
It's easily farmable without ever LoS'ing anything - just have the rogues interrupt poly/arcane explosion, the only time you need to run is if you get unlucky and he immunes right before he does it. Thanks to this easy stealth run I have ~150 spirit shards. :)
After 3 hours of running it (15 runs) I'm confident the patch made him uninterruptable.
It's easily farmable without ever LoS'ing anything - just have the rogues interrupt poly/arcane explosion, the only time you need to run is if you get unlucky and he immunes right before he does it. Thanks to this easy stealth run I have ~150 spirit shards. :)
After 3 hours of running it (15 runs) I'm confident the patch made him uninterruptable.
Yeah. Still easy via LOSing, just be careful to position your tank between him and the rest of the group so you can pick him up -- the teleport is a deagro as well, at least on Heroic mode.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Does anyone have any decent profiles of level 70 blues and very nice armour/hp values and around 20% dodge?
Currently our bear tanks sit at 12karmour and 11k health. Unbuffed. This just seems SO low. Plus I am levelling my own druid now and am very tempted to make him a main. I see a lot of people posting 27k armour values and stuff but I just don't see how possible that is (not saying you are lying, I am just saying I have not seen the gear to accomplish that yet).
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
Does anyone have any decent profiles of level 70 blues and very nice armour/hp values and around 20% dodge?
Currently our bear tanks sit at 12karmour and 11k health. Unbuffed. This just seems SO low. Plus I am levelling my own druid now and am very tempted to make him a main. I see a lot of people posting 27k armour values and stuff but I just don't see how possible that is (not saying you are lying, I am just saying I have not seen the gear to accomplish that yet).
http://ctprofiles.net/421997 - My current set, 27k armor and about 23% dodge with motw. Low hp though and not completely crit immune, need to farm honor for the high warlord's helmet+shoulders+chest for complete crit immunity and a lot more hp.
What Sulliwan has is more than enough to tank most of Karazhan, probably would have to use a flask and other consumables for the prince, but definately possible.
http://ctprofiles.net/3769940
All Blues except Earthwarden on the assumption that you will hit Exalted CE as fast as possible as a druid (because Earthwarden really is that good) Sockets are 2 Yellow +8 Def in the shoulders, and 3 Red +8 Agi in the chest. This puts you at 415 Defense (uncritable with SotF) and around 35% dodge unbuffed in bearform I think, and well over 20k armor, though not up to 27k.
On a side note, do those Nimble Foot Treads actually exist? I have yet to see them drop.
This puts you at 415 Defense (uncritable with SotF) and around 35% dodge unbuffed in bearform I think, and well over 20k armor, though not up to 27k.
Did you deliberately choose a Dodge heavy setup vs AC? If so, why? Is it because you can survive bursts good enough with that and wanted to go for avoidance to make healing easier? Because generally for me AC>Avoidance is nearly all situations.
Does anyone have any decent profiles of level 70 blues and very nice armour/hp values and around 20% dodge?
Currently our bear tanks sit at 12karmour and 11k health. Unbuffed. This just seems SO low. Plus I am levelling my own druid now and am very tempted to make him a main. I see a lot of people posting 27k armour values and stuff but I just don't see how possible that is (not saying you are lying, I am just saying I have not seen the gear to accomplish that yet).
Very simply, if your Bear tanks can't get over 12kAC and 11kHP they aren't trying. No, it's not realistic to expect 27k from a Druid that has in all likelihood been amassing Healing gear pre-TBC but there are easily obtainable quest and BoE items that can get you well over these figures.
I am around 16kAC and 13kHP (having taken my sweet time getting to 70). I may be slightly lucky in having picked up Guise of the Devourer and Malfurion's months ago but everything else is a Blue or TBC quest reward. Heck I'm even using the Unyielding Maul (+250 armour Mace) from Dire Maul because I'm too tight to pay for the Warden staff before I get exalted with Cenarion Expedition.
Once you add in the TBC instance drops Bears should find it really easy to get a range of items to cover all eventualities.
Did you deliberately choose a Dodge heavy setup vs AC? If so, why? Is it because you can survive bursts good enough with that and wanted to go for avoidance to make healing easier? Because generally for me AC>Avoidance is nearly all situations.
I chose what I believe a Druid could get within a month of hitting 70 with regular play. 2 Exalteds (I shouldn't have included the exalted scryer enchant, but too late to change) 1 Revered. Nothing Heroic, Nothing Raid. I only chose 4 "low armor" items and I stand by my choice of Hat and Shoulders (Shoulders enabling an easy uncritable state, as well as high agi/sta) I could understand substituting the Jerkin from Hellfire http://www.thottbot.com/?i=55780 or the boots from Blades Edge http://www.thottbot.com/?i=57928 . Unless you consider PvP gear to be something everyone can reasonably get.
I chose what I believe a Druid could get within a month of hitting 70 with regular play. 2 Exalteds (I shouldn't have included the exalted scryer enchant, but too late to change) 1 Revered. Nothing Heroic, Nothing Raid. I only chose 4 "low armor" items and I stand by my choice of Hat and Shoulders (Shoulders enabling an easy uncritable state, as well as high agi/sta) I could understand substituting the Jerkin from Hellfire http://www.thottbot.com/?i=55780 or the boots from Blades Edge http://www.thottbot.com/?i=57928 . Unless you consider PvP gear to be something everyone can reasonably get.
The chest, boots and neck are the high avoidance items.
You've already called out the jerkin and supple leather boots as alternatives.
For the neck slot, the mark of the ravenguard from a sethekk halls quest is a good alternative.
edit: I missed the trinket slot. Obvious alternatives include SHotM, and the epic AV trinket.
Last edited by Jini : 02/20/07 at 1:05 PM.
Reason: I missed the trinket slot
Can the OP update those wonderful tables with some of the items that were missed? Like the amazing high armor Verdant Gloves from a quest chain in Shadowmoon Valley (with a stop in Arcatraz). Or a couple other items mentioned in the last 13 pages.
They're a great resource and every feral druid should have this thread bookmarked, but it could be even better.
02/15/07, 2:16 PM
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