True, I forgot about both Hydross and Al'ar. Kael can easily be done with 3 tanks and either a DPS warrior "tanking" or a druid in DPS gear tanking (or a hunter "tanking"? not sure about that).
We used 2 prot tanks and 2 ferals all the way through SSC/TK, and once we got through a bit of Hyjal and BT ended up with the second prot respeccing to DPS (although he still throws on tanking gear for trash a lot of the time, especially in Hyjal). I think using 1 prot tank and two ferals is the "optimal" way to do BT, just because neither a prot paladin nor prot warrior can come close to the usefulness of a feral on a boss fight imo.
I would think bliz wants the 3 tanks to be Warrior, Druid, Pallie at some point. When they make pallies itemization a bit better i can see it happening.
We run a similar setup with Warrior + 2 Druids and a 2nd warrior who respecs.
I would think bliz wants the 3 tanks to be Warrior, Druid, Pallie at some point. When they make pallies itemization a bit better i can see it happening.
Their actual talents seem to be the thing holding back prot pallys more than gear to be honest, most guilds tend to still use a prot warrior mt and a prot pally just isn't as good an OT as a feral druid.
a prot pally just isn't as good an OT as a feral druid.
This is the main issue. Why bring a prot pally who's secondary role would (I would assume from talent setups like this) be a healer, when on the fights where you need an extra healer you probably want it because you have the OT's tanking, while extra DPS is never a bad thing and sometimes is exceptionally good (i.e. RoS for one). If I can pull off 1300+ DPS consistently (which I can) on non-multi-tank fights, and still tank sufficiently well to be able to be one of the MT's on Bloodboil, what's the point in a prot paladin as OT? The thing that makes sense if you're min-maxing to either make it easier or to clear the content as fast as possible, it just doesn't make sense.
I'll have to dig through some old WWSes, but I don't recall seeing anywhere near a 9% increase in parries after swapping out Earthwarden. Unless I'm reading that wrong and you actually mean a 9% reduction in the 5% chance to be parried which makes the first +5 weapon skill change your chance to be parried from 5% to (5 - 9%) = 4.55% (which is far more plausible, but wouldn't result in a 15% increase in overall threat).
Monzanto, I don't know where you got these numbers? They do not match other sources (e.g. the druid wiki, which itself is not totally in line with wowwiki).
Feral weapon skill reduces the chance to miss (which is higher when trying to hit higher level mobs, estimated to be 1.2% more chance to miss per level of different), but on top of that reduces the chance a mob has to dodge/parry/block by exactly the same amount.
20 feral rating (a bit more than 5 weapon skill) gives you 1.24%, 24 feral rating (the amount the Earthwarden would give, and which corresponds to a bit more than 6 weapon skill) gives you 1.49% (using numbers from druid wiki). The crit chance should also be affected for mobs lvl 70.
However I have never seen reported that +feral skill would give different reduction levels for dodge or block.
My guild runs a prot warrior and pally tank as the two MTs. I do not know why people think paladins cannot MT. Our Pally has MT'd a LOT of SSC/TK stuff. Obviously fast hitting mobs are ideal, but he has also tanked Gruul to 15 grows (don't ask), Mag etc.
On a fight like Leotheras I am sure most guilds just use 1 prot tank but we use both the warrior and paladin as tanks. Usually the paladin uses range abilities to aggro the boss after a WW, then the warrior takes over. Its a huge help and never ever underestimate a paladins range taunt for fights like Vashj. As an FYI, our last leo kill had 2 minutes nearly left on the enrage timer. So having 2 prot tanks is not a raid killer =).
Really, a lot of people have this idea paladins can't tank. However I could not imagine how much harder some fights would be without ours now! They have some VERY nice and unique abilities that none of the other 2 tanks have (range taunt, consecration, ability to aggro 10 mobs with RF + heals and then hold them off the AoErs). Don't knock it before you try it!
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
It might be useful in SSC/TK, however, i don't see any fight in MH/BT where a prot paladin would be particularly helpful.
As i understand it a prot paladin excels at aggroing multiple mobs simultaneously or at range. He lacks survivability and fear protection. Due to the lack of survivability you obviuosly don't want to let him tank the hardhitters like Azgalor, Gorefiend, etc. He can't break fear so Archimonde is off the table as well. I could see him offtanking Supremus, Akama or Gurtogg - however that's something a feral druid or offwarrior can do as well - and still put out very good dps.
Monsanto: There's no way those numbers are correct. The correct amount is approximately 2% hit, ~1% less dodge/parry/block, 0.5% more crit for 20 skill rating/5 skill from what I can tell.
Kink: As I said before, it's not that prot pallys can't tank, it's just that feral tanks are generally better when you're min-maxing the raid (or just trying to make it easier). There's also a lack of fights where they'd be useful in MH/BT, other than MH trash (which isn't that tough in the first place as long as you have 4 people who can grab mobs).
I farmed up the tokens for [Veteran's Leather Boots] this weekend, just need a bit more honor (thank you, upcoming AV weekend =) and I've got my pair. Question:
Boar's Speed vs. +12 Agi for tanking? So far I've always been using 12 Agi, but that run speed is attractive...how useful have people found it for tanking/offtanking? Also, I will use these in my silly arena team, so there is a consideration there as well, though not heavily weighted.
Yeah, I do think I had the math wrong. I think I was bringing a level 73 mob all the way down to a level 70 equivalent (15 weapon skill) instead of just to a level 72 (5 weapon skill).
I got the math from the thread about weapon skill for rogues and warriors, which linked to a Blue post on the EU forums about weapon skill (that link no longer works when I click on it).
For "Yellow Con" Mobs (Level 70, 71, 72), weapon skill does the following per point:
to Miss: Decreases at 0.1
to be Dodged: Decreases at 0.05
to be Parried: Decreases at 0.3
to Crit: Increases at 0.1
For a "Orange Con" Mob (Level 73+, i.e. bosses), weapon skill does the following per point:
to Miss: Decreases at 0.266666
to be Dodged: Decreases at 0.133333
to be Parried: Decreases at 0.6
to Crit: Increases at 0.266666
Getting +5 weapon skill makes a level 73 boss into a level 72. I won't bother with the intermediate steps, but here is the ultimate difference in stats between a level 72 and a level 73:
Miss: 3%
Dodge: 1.5%
Parry: 6%
Crit Reduction: 3%
Which if you were to simply add everything up totals 13.5%. That's probably a decent enough way to estimate your overall threat increase.
Please double check my math again, this weapon skill stuff is somewhat of a new revelation.
Oh sweet, I didn't know that. So anyone have experience with run speed boosts and wanna tell me if they are worth the loss of stats?
I have Boar's Speed (Speed + 9 Sta) on my Boots of Natural Grace and will never enchant them with something else. (I might make another pair to enchant with 12 agility, however ) In my opinion, minor speed is the single best enchant in the game, especially for tanks.
Consider that there are four viable enchants for druid tanks:
Cat's Swiftness -- Speed + 6 Agility: 8 Large Prismatic Shards, 8 Primal Air
Boar's Speed -- Speed + 9 Stamina: 8 Large Prismatic Shards, 8 Primal Earth
For Fortitude and Dexterity to be equivalent, in terms of item budget, Fortitude would have to be 18 Stamina. It seems you've already picked up on this, and have rejected Fortitude outright. Assuming you want a speed enchant, then, it comes down to Cat's Swiftness vs. Boar's Speed. They're roughly equivalent, in my opinion, when it comes to tanking. However, Cat's takes 8 Primal Air, whereas Boar's takes 8 Primal Earth. On Blackhand, this is a difference of 200 gold. Thus, regardless of how you value 6 agi vs 9 stamina, the best choice is Boar's Speed, unless you have money to burn.
Another way of looking at it is to compare Boar's to Fort, and Cat's to Dex. Boar's sacrifices 3 Stamina for run speed, whereas Cat's sacrifices 6 Agility. I'd rather give up 3 Stamina than 6 Agility any day, and I imagine most druids feel the same way.
Finally, if you're going to use them in PvP, Stamina > Agility, and run speed is very useful (damn feral range bug!).
For "Yellow Con" Mobs (Level 70, 71, 72), weapon skill does the following per point:
to Miss: Decreases at 0.1
to be Dodged: Decreases at 0.05
to be Parried: Decreases at 0.3
to Crit: Increases at 0.1
I really don't think parries get reduced that much or more than dodge for that matter. I did some testing on the Skettis trees during last week. I know it's nowhere near enough attacks but I just don't see anything showing I get parried less by that much.
As the intention was mostly to see how good Feral Weapon Skill was for tanking, I stupidly started the testing with most of my cat gear so I was at the hit cap for these mobs and can't really say anything about +hit.
I plan to gather more numbers, but it takes a while since others seem hellbent on also killing the trees.
I'm not a big PvPer, but I've pretty much come to the conclusion that unless I change realm PvP/arena looks like the only way to significantly improve my gear. Would anyone disagree with the proposition that the best use of my honour points is the [Veteran's Dragonhide Bracers] - assuming I want those not the rogue orientated ones - and that the best use of my Arena points is the [Merciless Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic], probably followed by the mace - since I can easily get tier 4 shoulders and legs from HKM/Gruul (just been unlucky so far).
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
Run speed doesn't stack with feline swiftness(but does with the pvp set bonus), so not as useful for PVP as you'd initially assume
Regardless, it's still good for bearform or when you're inside (WSG).
Originally Posted by Farstrider
I'm not a big PvPer, but I've pretty much come to the conclusion that unless I change realm PvP/arena looks like the only way to significantly improve my gear. Would anyone disagree with the proposition that the best use of my honour points is the [Veteran's Dragonhide Bracers] - assuming I want those not the rogue orientated ones - and that the best use of my Arena points is the [Merciless Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic], probably followed by the mace - since I can easily get tier 4 shoulders and legs from HKM/Gruul (just been unlucky so far).
The Druid bracers are superior for DPS and for me they do fine for tanking as well. (I went n got 2 pairs, for different enchants/gems).
Depending what you do in raids, the chestpiece should be golden but there's nothing quite as good as that s2 mace when it comes to kitty form. It's also far more expensive, so harder to get. Personally, I'd grab it first as the chest is then 'within easy reach'. Then again, I got the s1 chest, so the s2 chest might've lost some of its appeal to me.
Re: minor speed increase, I personally love it, but it's clearly a question of preferences. There are a lot of fights these days where mobility is important (or even vital) and even a slight difference counts. I used to get the speed increase from the +20 AP metagem, but now that I use the +18 sta/+5% stun resist metagem I'm seriously considering getting the enchant on my boots (I currently have +12 sta because that was probably the easiest one to get at the time). It's particularly good for bear form, since I can't seem to ever go as fast as I want in bear form (except when using feral charge )
Re: the pvp rewards, I have made the same kind of analysis last week and came to the conclusion that the Veteran Dragonhide Bracers were indeed the best options to spend my honor. At least it's the item that seemed to give me the best upgrade, both for tanking and dps. Even with poor socketing it's still pretty much the best option for dps until the end of TK. And for tanking it's straight up the best option until... whenever, apparently. I have only one set so I'm using a shifting nightseye and +4 all stats enchant so that I can benefit from them for both gear sets. It's possible to min-max them much better than that with 2 sets, but for the moment they are really good enough for me, and it saves me one slot of bag space.
Kink: As I said before, it's not that prot pallys can't tank, it's just that feral tanks are generally better when you're min-maxing the raid (or just trying to make it easier). There's also a lack of fights where they'd be useful in MH/BT, other than MH trash (which isn't that tough in the first place as long as you have 4 people who can grab mobs).
I agree that for min maxing a feral is better simply due to the DPS abilities we have when we don't have to tank directly. Its just that a lot of people are under the impression that tanks are warriors and druids. Many do not even consider a pally as a viable tank.
My guild has run with 2 prot warriors for a long time, when one quit and the prot pally stepped up, we noticed no change. Our progression has been superb and the Paladin has tanked just as well as our old prot warrior, with the bonus of the paladin unique skills (and of course minus the warrior unique skills which are of course very nice for "oh shit!" moments).
Now, I am not familiar with the BT fights other than what I have read so I am not qualified to say and you are probably right that we will struggle to find our pally work. However, I feel confident to say that we WILL find him work =). In any fight where people have said that you need a feral offtank, we have found him to perform just as well. I also really love that extra blessing, what can I say =).
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
Yeah, I do think I had the math wrong. I think I was bringing a level 73 mob all the way down to a level 70 equivalent (15 weapon skill) instead of just to a level 72 (5 weapon skill).
I got the math from the thread about weapon skill for rogues and warriors, which linked to a Blue post on the EU forums about weapon skill (that link no longer works when I click on it).
Please double check my math again, this weapon skill stuff is somewhat of a new revelation.
I read all of that thread yesterday as part of a forum catch up, I edited out the numbers from your quoted post as even the people testing them are not happy with them yet so I don't think its right to go quoting them around just yet.
I will go as far as saying from my understanding of the testing done so far Weapon Skill Rating does look very good especially against +3 mobs.
I think quite a few of us have known this for a while but not the exact maths behind it, Boevis has been advocating it for off tanking for a while.
Re: pvp item choices, I came to the same conclusion on Veteran's Dragonhide Bracers. The belt is not significantly better than the [Tree-Mender's Belt] from heroic ramparts, and if anyone in your server is running SSC/TK it's likely that the Boots of Natural Grace pattern shows up in the AH.
I've been spending my arena points on a high stamina set. If you are also interested in this, arena is great since all the pieces start with a large amount of base stamina. Disregarding sockets, the stamina increase over T4 is largest for head, shoulders and chest in that order. The chest and head are about even when sockets are included. Since the legs and gloves lack sockets they were less desirable for me. In my stamina gear and raid buffed I have just shy of 20k HP as a nelf, while still holding more than 30k armor and 35% dodge.
The belt is not significantly better than the [Tree-Mender's Belt] from heroic ramparts, and if anyone in your server is running SSC/TK it's likely that the Boots of Natural Grace pattern shows up in the AH.
Although I have [Tree-Mender's Belt] I recently came to the conclusion that at high levels of armour it isn't actually as nice as [Girdle of Treachery] socketed with 2x[Shifting Nightseye]. The [Boots of Natural Grace] are fantastic assuming you are crit immune, and the materials requirements, apart from the 2 nethers, are incredibly cheap. I just wish I'd picked one up a week or 2 ago for under 1k rather than paying 2k+ when they were the new new thing.
To be brutally honest, cat gear is starting to slightly take a back seat for me now, just because with resist gear and everything I'm always so full on bag space. Any items like the PvP bracers that are great for tanking and good for dps are just worth their weight in gold.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
I recently tried to get rid of my armor rings for more dodge (since i run at the cap even unbuffed) and didn't really come up with good alternatives. I have both Ring of Lethality and Ring of Deceitful Intent, which are decent. However, they don't offer as much avoidance as i hoped for.
What do you do to avoid the armor cap in favor of more dodge/stamina ?
08/26/07, 11:59 AM
) In my opinion, minor speed is the single best enchant in the game, especially for tanks.
)
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