We take the "easymode out" that Dukes suggested, although I often MT because the healers simply prefer a druid tank for this one. I can't say I've actually compared total damage taken, but one things for sure and that is druids damage is _alot_ less spiky. Two reasons for this, one is obviously higher AC (I make sure I'm specced thick hide, it's worth remembering the cap is ~36k vs a lvl 73) and no crushings. The other is that Azgalor hits bitchingly hard and if an MT equipped with a ~1.7 speed weapon gets an unlucky string of parries then he's going to take an unhealable amount of burst. The relatively slow attack speed of bears is something of an advantage in this sense. We also have one dps warrior meleeing Az from the start to keep up CS, demo and TC.

That said, either warrior or druid works, it just depends who you have available I guess and who actually has experience of the encounter. While it's not really very difficult, it is important to make sure you get the positioning right. Assuming you kept the majority of the NPC's alive you need them to engage the boss (particularly the taurens) but make sure that they're stood behind or to the sides else they get cleaved and Az parries more. Also I find that it doesn't take much effort to reposition slightly and move out of RoF, it's something you can really do without while the MT healers are silenced.

What really did it for us though was getting the MT healers to use some shadow res, we position them exactly 41 yards in front of the MT so they stay more or less out of range of RoF, but with ~200 SR they resist 50% of silences which makes thinks a whole lot easier. Also having the rest of the raid (apart from the OT's and theyre healer) equip 150 FR is definitely worth the lost dps in our experience.

Yeah and we left Azgolar and Archimonde for quite awhile while we cleared more of BT, the reasoning was to farm more HoDs so as to have the gear for Mother when we got there. In hindsight we should of focused on clearing Hyjal first though because in all honesty it's really not that difficult, certainly no more-so than say Gurtgott and RoS, but it's t6 loot which shits most what you'll pick up in BT pre-Sharhaz.

Working on Mother at the moment and still can't decide whether it's better to use a druid MT and 2 warrior OT's, or a warrior MT and 2 druid OT's or what. Only problem I had with MT'ing was if the FA people were ported near my spot, not really much I can do without LS/SW. Anyone have any experience of MTing her? Wondering how much SR I should run with, if any. As an OT I've been going with ~200 buffed as SL can't crit so all that's really needed is high armor and HP. Perhaps I should stack a bit more SR?

42 defence rating is 17.5 defence, which gives ~0.7% dodge and miss. This makes the comparison 27 stamina, or 0.12% less crit _and_ ~1.4% avoidance, which makes it much less clearcut, especially with the on use for "oh shit" situations.

I'd also say that it's probably not worth getting leatherworking if you're only planning on getting that one item sordee. It's a bit of a pain to level (especially the last 20 levels or so).

I can't really share any experience with having a druid tank Shahraz as we've never tried it. The abilities warriors have combined with not really losing anything in terms of hp/armour when using SR gear make them better tanks for it imo.

If Sordee is really serious about this, then I'd suggest to level LW for the boots. They are the best you can get for both Cat and Bear (unless you need the resilience on your pvp boots I guess) until you get Den Mother's. Atleast leveling for me was worth it just for those boots and if you are revered/exalted with the appropriate factions the last 20 points won't be that much of a problem (I think I mostly leveled on [Drums of Battle] and [Drums of Panic] which do not have really expensive mats compared to the other professions.)

Add the fact that you will be able to craft your own Shadowprowler chestpiece come next patch if you have the mats and nethers (so you won't have to pay a crafting/nether fee for a chest I am sure you will want, too ) and the fact that you can make your own stash of [Nethercleft Leg Armor] and [Nethercobra Leg Armor], you will get more out of this than just the boots (which alone are worth it IMO).

EDIT: World of Warcraft 1 to 300 / 375 Leatherworking Guide is the guide I roughly followed. Take a look and decide for yourself if it is worth it for you, Sordee.

Question about endgame bear OTing...

Perhaps my role on some fight is to tank for a short period of time, which I want to be crit immune for, and then DPS the rest of the time. Essentially the goal is to:
- Reach crit immunity
- Maximize DPS
- Sacrifice small gains in DPS for significant gains in tanking

My think here is that (all the way through T6 endgame) I'll want to go 2pc Gladiator gear and Veteran's bracers for the crit immunity, then fill the rest of the slots with reasonable hybrid gear. As this is a long-term solution to the problem and I only PVP so that I can PVE better, which two S2 Gladiator epics are my best compromise? From the above two sources, counting differences in gems and enchants, I'm thinking gloves and shoulders, since I won't need the defense on the shoulders and the gloves share the same enchant, and the DPS difference from T6 is the smallest. The alternative is collecting non-set slots ([Veteran's Pendant of Triumph], PVP belt and boots). Any thoughts?

We tried the first couple pulls with a Warrior MT and he was getting burst down. So we switched to me tanking and the healers said it was far easier to heal me. I have a lot more HP than the Warrior at the raid (wasn't our high-stam Warrior), and I was taking about 1k less per hit because of armor. I don't see much upside to using a Warrior over a Druid on this fight, since the killer really is the melee burst, which we are less succeptable to. Not to say you can't do it just fine with either, but in our case the healers complained of burst, and me tanking removed that from the equation.

I used such a "hydrid set" as i called it very often and i'm quite fond of it. Up until i got significant amount of T6 i used the 2pc Gladiator Bonus to get the neccessary crit immunity (i used head & shoulder w/ t6 gloves and head & gloves w/o t6 gloves). With all T6 available (missing pants atm) i'm not so sure Gladiator gear is the best option. I lose so much stats for wearing those items that i could easily socket 3 or 4 resilience gems and still end up with more stats overall. It's definately the best option pre complete t6 though.

I'm wondering what fight you're talking about, because I can't think of any t6 fights (other than akama, which is a joke anyway) where you need to switch roles mid fight. I just have two gear sets, one pure DPS and one pure tanking. On trash I generally just have the pure tanking set on because our healers are slack and sometimes trash pulls with just one mob go horribly wrong.

As for anti-crit, I use timelapse shard/scarab of displacement/band of the abyssal lord/violet signet/neck of the juggernaut/pvp belt/pvp bracers. That takes me to just over crit immunity. I prefer not to use elixir of ironskin in favour of elixir of major fortitude (we've never had the plan for the druid belt from SSC/TK in any case, but I should get around to upgrading my pvp bracers/belt to the veterans versions, I just can't be arsed with PvP at all).

I think it depends on your guild progression and where your upgrades are most likely to lie. I went for chest and shoulders -- Kael was a while off back then, and I didn't have DKP for t5 shoulders. Between the two and vet's bracers I'm at 101 resilience + some extra def from their enchants; if I really want to go hybrid I can just equip those three in my cat set and sit back. Gloves are a decent, cheap option too though.

But as Dukes says -- I really can't think of anything in t6 raiding where you'd actually wear that sort of gear. I think RoS is the only fight I tank on where I don't wear pure tanking gear, but I have a special gearset for that fight.

Tanking gear for RoS? I wear pure dps gear for the fight since the requirements on actually tanking are very low. In phase 1, you have no armor and defense anyway, so your tanking gear is for naught outside of stam. In phase 2, if you are an OT, with good execution you'll never see aggro so it's almost wasted there and you don't use it in phase 3 since you are dpsing.

Whats your gear make up on that fight and the benefits?

The idea OT for sharaz are paladins.

Extra blessings, some healing. Since the point of OTing her is to sit there like a lump of HP, who cares as long as you have enough HP and SR?

I can't comment on raid tanking, as our GL, RL and MT (same person) hates druids and tanks everything.

I prefer a hybrid suit for BT/Hjyal trash, since all my T4 is gemmed for tanking and I have no T5 with only 1 T6, but the partial dps gear makes grabbing and holding 2-3 mobs pretty easy.

OTing Mother is the worst time I spend in BT, sitting down every 15 seconds to try ensure I get a debuff I can't monitor with a quick glance at debuffs : (

And then miss streaks, oh god the miss streaks.

Anyway, as time goes by I find myself wearing more and more dps items in BT. It seems that I'm more benefit to the raid if I'm capable of decent dps and average tanking as a soaker. Moving further away from pure tanking gear. So far the only encounter I truly worry about tanking gear on is Gurtogg. So far with Illidari Council on the rogue I'm better off stacking dodge and since most dps gear is now agi I'm wearing more pieces while staying crit immune through resilience.

Not directed at me but just thought i'd point out some of the fights that I tend to tank.
Due to the less spikey nature of druid tanking healers often say that i'm easier to heal than our warrior tanks and if our MT (warrior) is offline for whatever reason I'm the first on the list to tank encounters that don't have warrior gimmicks (e.g. RoS phase 2, Archimonde and any fight with fear breaks, etc).


Hyjal:

Winterchill - I've tanked this a few times due to our warrior getting a new job and being late due to work often. Doesn't significantly impact healing, especially since he spends half the fight casting death and decay and not actually hitting you. DPS tends to like the extra threat I put out.

Anetheron - I offtank this fight sometimes since I have the badge FR gear. Otherwise I dps and use the 2 piece t5 to spot heal when I don't have the swarm.

Kaz'rogal - I have yet to tank this fight. Our warrior is always on by this time so might as well put me on DPSing. I certainly do a lot more than a prot warrior.

Azgalor - When we first attempted this I was OTing, but since he doesn't crush they decided to have me MT and the healers all thought I was significantly easier to heal on this fight. The other main advantage was that I put out a lot more threat than our warrior and the DPS loves it.

Archimonde - Gimmick fight. Maybe if i were alliance and had fear ward. :-/

Black Temple:

Naj'entus - This is probably the fight I most often put on my healing gear and help out with that.

Supremus - Haha @ my guild on this fight. I used to OT, but after having had our warriors die and solo tanking him eating everything on 3 of our kills, it has turned into whoever picks him up after a gaze is the MT for a while. I love fights like this where I can use [Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch] and [Badge of Tenacity] rather actively since he spends half of their cooldown chasing other people. (Poor melee.)

Shade of Akama - I'm the guy that picks up all the defenders throughout the fight. I don't think it much matters who tanks what on this fight.. it's kind of like free loot.

Teron Gorefiend - Healers and DPS both enjoy having me tank on this fight. For some reason they find me easier to heal than our warrior, and the DPS can push it a little harder and kill him a little faster for fewer ghosts. Personally, I hate it.. I want to do the ghosts, it's the fun part of the fight!

Gurtogg Bloodboil - Yeah, I'm just another one of the tanks here. It's nice being able to shift out and throw a heal on yourself while he's doing his fel rage, as long as he doesn't kill them and turn around and 1 shot you.

Reliquary of Souls - Phase 1 of this fight I think is amazing for druids. I take the gaze several times usually. I wear my tanking gear and whatever DPS gear I have that has extra stam and dodge but lower armor (Insidious bands for example). Just before the enrages in phase 1, pop out of cat, use barkskin and go stand in the middle of him. 20% less damage for about 10 seconds of the enrage. Also, i pop the badge of tenacity and moroes pocketwatch trinkets and come out of it having taken ~5k of my 20k+ hp. It's usually still enough to take part of another enrage. Have to have a warrior tank phase 2 for the deadens though :-/, and warrior tanks phase 3 too.

That's as far as we've gotten. Haven't done Shahraz+ yet.

The biggest advantage to druids from what I've experienced is the threat. If you can afford to throw the tank druid in the DPS group and still keep him alive, even better. Strength of Earth + Battleshout and Bloodlusts make it extremely difficult for DPS to catch you on threat since so much of it is attributed to your damage output. Throw in a 2nd shaman to that group for GOA and the extra crits while gaining avoidance is just that much better.

You don't use evasion to tank enrages? o_O Our DPS has got to the point where we only need 1 enrage now, which makes it ridiculously easy. MT tanks it til the first enrage, rogue takes the enrage, I take it from that point to it's death generally. Blessing of Sacrifice with improved Demo Shout and TC up, then activate trinkets and laugh at how little damage is incoming.

We still take 2 enrages, tanks go in for the first, and rogues go in for the second. And besides, when i pop my trinkets I usually have about 65%+ dodge... Bear druid evasion! More if I have both kings and GoA. BoS, ha, that'd be even better. (Oh man, I love BoS for tanking trash to Shahraz. But.. love tap needs to diaf. Anyone know of an effective way to deal with it or do you just eat the chain stuns and hope thorns keeps most of them on you?)

I would be very glad if you could give me some feedback on my tanking gear. We downed 5/7 SSC and 2/4 TK. We run with 2 Def, 1 Off and 2 Ferals and I think, when a Bear can tnak a Boss better than a Def, we got to tank it (like Hydross' adds, Tidalvess, Al'ar's adds, Voidreaver). But I am not quite sure if I got the best out of my gear.

You can look at it in the armory, I usually log out in tanking gear.

So I basically use full T4, Necklace of the deep, Cloak from Illhoof, PvP Bracers, Girlde of natural Power, Boots of Effortless Striking, SSC random drop Staff and Tenacity/Moroes or high Stam trinkets (from netherwing / kara-pre), depending whether I except burst damage (tidalvess, more stamina) oder not.

I only get crit-immune if I use [Item not found!]. And I run on a fairly low amount of hit (if I need to build aggro on adds fast, I switch to Earthwarden / Shapeshifter). would you recommend a different combination of items and buffs?

I do have nearly any other reachable items, despite arena-stuff (only S1 head / shoulder) an Leatherworking boots and those to rings from Aran and Magtheridon.

It would be great to hear some feedback, in how far I will tank some bosses in future and what you would recommend in terms of equip. As I see, my only upgrades will be T5 and T6 if we get to MH/BT. So those slots are likely to be equipped with those.

Are there fights who benefit from that "oh-shit"-combination Moroes/Badge, or should I look for some trinkets with Def/Resilience? As an example, in the Tidalvess-Fight I found Stamina-Trinkets to be much better, as I encountered myself being around 20% too often to counter that with Moroes/Badge. Instead giving some more HP to give my healers some more time seemed to be more useful.

Just a question:

Have you considered replacing [Necklace of the Deep] with [Necklace of the Juggernaut] or [Frayed Tether of the Drowned]. You lose some agility but you can use [Elixir of Major Fortitude] or [Elixir of Major Defense] instead of [Elixir of Ironskin], which is in a pure tanking role better i think.

Regarding upgrades i think if you want to maintain 4/5 T4 for tanking the [Nordrassil Feral-Kilt] is for taking a very nice upgrade. Although i think you can easily live without the T4 setbonus for tanking.

As I pointed out after that post, the scarab is 1.4% avoidance on top of the defence towards crit immunity. I'd much rather have the 1.4% avoidance from the Scarab and get a load of defence towards crit immunity than use the Pocketwatch (which is purely ~1.8% avoidance). Losing .4% avoidance and the slightly less useful activate is a lot better than switching out say the boots of the den mother for the PvP boots, for example, or the helm and shoulder enchants from DPS to tanking equivalents, IMO.

I have a different question for my fellow druids, which have beaten the game already

Having started to raid rather late in TBC I'm currently working through SSC/TK with my guild. I have (almost) everything i would want from heroic badges for my tanking gear and stacking them up lately. Now the FR set came to my mind. And the question i was asking myself is:
Is there any requirement or even any use for a feral having the epic FR gear from the badges?
Does one of you wear FR gear for any fight?

I'm aware that some tactics for Leotheras include a "normal" tank for the demon phase. But we do it the standard way with a WL. Is there anything else I've missed?
I apologize if this topic was already covered somewhere. thanks in advance for your answers.

It's possible you'll be called upon to be either a FR tank for Illidan or Anetheron. They're the only two fights where fire resist is useful as an offtank. If you're MT, you don't have to worry about it.

I searched this thread but couldn't find anything about Idol of the White Stag's use in tanking.

Is it just me or it isn't an upgrade from Idol of Brutality, or just a minor, insignificant one? I'm not only talking druid tanking/ OT bosses where maul but also on trash. Does that 92 (I think) increase in attack power make up for the 10 extra swipe damage and 50 maul?

So Blizzard implemented the sets for all different armor classes with no clear thought in mind *shrug* thank for the info though

@minim: Although i'm quite far away from BT i would think that [Idol of the White Stag] is not of much use whether for tanking or for dpsing. I maybe wrong though.

I still use Brutality while tanking - the only viable alternative i'm considering is the idol of the raven goddess to increase my groups damage.