True, I forgot about both Hydross and Al'ar. Kael can easily be done with 3 tanks and either a DPS warrior "tanking" or a druid in DPS gear tanking (or a hunter "tanking"? not sure about that).

We used 2 prot tanks and 2 ferals all the way through SSC/TK, and once we got through a bit of Hyjal and BT ended up with the second prot respeccing to DPS (although he still throws on tanking gear for trash a lot of the time, especially in Hyjal). I think using 1 prot tank and two ferals is the "optimal" way to do BT, just because neither a prot paladin nor prot warrior can come close to the usefulness of a feral on a boss fight imo.

Their actual talents seem to be the thing holding back prot pallys more than gear to be honest, most guilds tend to still use a prot warrior mt and a prot pally just isn't as good an OT as a feral druid.

This is the main issue. Why bring a prot pally who's secondary role would (I would assume from talent setups like this) be a healer, when on the fights where you need an extra healer you probably want it because you have the OT's tanking, while extra DPS is never a bad thing and sometimes is exceptionally good (i.e. RoS for one). If I can pull off 1300+ DPS consistently (which I can) on non-multi-tank fights, and still tank sufficiently well to be able to be one of the MT's on Bloodboil, what's the point in a prot paladin as OT? The thing that makes sense if you're min-maxing to either make it easier or to clear the content as fast as possible, it just doesn't make sense.

New Topic:

There's a few threads on the first page of this forum about the value of getting +5 weapon skill (20 skill rating). Here's what it would get you:

3% to hit
1.5% less chance to get dodged
9% less chance to get parried
3% more crit

That's ~15% more threat right there, most of it coming from the reduction in parry.

Now I've got to figure out if I want to take out the old [Earthwarden], or replace a defense ring with the [Shapeshifter's Signet].

Monzanto, I don't know where you got these numbers? They do not match other sources (e.g. the druid wiki, which itself is not totally in line with wowwiki).

Feral weapon skill reduces the chance to miss (which is higher when trying to hit higher level mobs, estimated to be 1.2% more chance to miss per level of different), but on top of that reduces the chance a mob has to dodge/parry/block by exactly the same amount.

20 feral rating (a bit more than 5 weapon skill) gives you 1.24%, 24 feral rating (the amount the Earthwarden would give, and which corresponds to a bit more than 6 weapon skill) gives you 1.49% (using numbers from druid wiki). The crit chance should also be affected for mobs lvl 70.

However I have never seen reported that +feral skill would give different reduction levels for dodge or block.

My guild runs a prot warrior and pally tank as the two MTs. I do not know why people think paladins cannot MT. Our Pally has MT'd a LOT of SSC/TK stuff. Obviously fast hitting mobs are ideal, but he has also tanked Gruul to 15 grows (don't ask), Mag etc.

On a fight like Leotheras I am sure most guilds just use 1 prot tank but we use both the warrior and paladin as tanks. Usually the paladin uses range abilities to aggro the boss after a WW, then the warrior takes over. Its a huge help and never ever underestimate a paladins range taunt for fights like Vashj. As an FYI, our last leo kill had 2 minutes nearly left on the enrage timer. So having 2 prot tanks is not a raid killer =).

Really, a lot of people have this idea paladins can't tank. However I could not imagine how much harder some fights would be without ours now! They have some VERY nice and unique abilities that none of the other 2 tanks have (range taunt, consecration, ability to aggro 10 mobs with RF + heals and then hold them off the AoErs). Don't knock it before you try it!

It might be useful in SSC/TK, however, i don't see any fight in MH/BT where a prot paladin would be particularly helpful.

As i understand it a prot paladin excels at aggroing multiple mobs simultaneously or at range. He lacks survivability and fear protection. Due to the lack of survivability you obviuosly don't want to let him tank the hardhitters like Azgalor, Gorefiend, etc. He can't break fear so Archimonde is off the table as well. I could see him offtanking Supremus, Akama or Gurtogg - however that's something a feral druid or offwarrior can do as well - and still put out very good dps.

I farmed up the tokens for [Veteran's Leather Boots] this weekend, just need a bit more honor (thank you, upcoming AV weekend =) and I've got my pair. Question:

Boar's Speed vs. +12 Agi for tanking? So far I've always been using 12 Agi, but that run speed is attractive...how useful have people found it for tanking/offtanking? Also, I will use these in my silly arena team, so there is a consideration there as well, though not heavily weighted.

There is a 6 Agi/Runspeed Enchant aswell - so it's a question of 6 agi vs 9 stamina.

Yeah, I do think I had the math wrong. I think I was bringing a level 73 mob all the way down to a level 70 equivalent (15 weapon skill) instead of just to a level 72 (5 weapon skill).

I got the math from the thread about weapon skill for rogues and warriors, which linked to a Blue post on the EU forums about weapon skill (that link no longer works when I click on it).

[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion

The relevant info was:

For "Yellow Con" Mobs (Level 70, 71, 72), weapon skill does the following per point:

to Miss: Decreases at 0.1
to be Dodged: Decreases at 0.05
to be Parried: Decreases at 0.3
to Crit: Increases at 0.1

For a "Orange Con" Mob (Level 73+, i.e. bosses), weapon skill does the following per point:

to Miss: Decreases at 0.266666
to be Dodged: Decreases at 0.133333
to be Parried: Decreases at 0.6
to Crit: Increases at 0.266666


Getting +5 weapon skill makes a level 73 boss into a level 72. I won't bother with the intermediate steps, but here is the ultimate difference in stats between a level 72 and a level 73:

Miss: 3%
Dodge: 1.5%
Parry: 6%
Crit Reduction: 3%

Which if you were to simply add everything up totals 13.5%. That's probably a decent enough way to estimate your overall threat increase.

Please double check my math again, this weapon skill stuff is somewhat of a new revelation.

I have Boar's Speed (Speed + 9 Sta) on my Boots of Natural Grace and will never enchant them with something else. (I might make another pair to enchant with 12 agility, however ) In my opinion, minor speed is the single best enchant in the game, especially for tanks.

Consider that there are four viable enchants for druid tanks:

Fortitude -- 12 Stamina: 15 Arcane Dust
Dexterity -- 12 Agility: 8 Greater Planar Essence, 8 Arcane Dust

Cat's Swiftness -- Speed + 6 Agility: 8 Large Prismatic Shards, 8 Primal Air
Boar's Speed -- Speed + 9 Stamina: 8 Large Prismatic Shards, 8 Primal Earth

For Fortitude and Dexterity to be equivalent, in terms of item budget, Fortitude would have to be 18 Stamina. It seems you've already picked up on this, and have rejected Fortitude outright. Assuming you want a speed enchant, then, it comes down to Cat's Swiftness vs. Boar's Speed. They're roughly equivalent, in my opinion, when it comes to tanking. However, Cat's takes 8 Primal Air, whereas Boar's takes 8 Primal Earth. On Blackhand, this is a difference of 200 gold. Thus, regardless of how you value 6 agi vs 9 stamina, the best choice is Boar's Speed, unless you have money to burn.

Another way of looking at it is to compare Boar's to Fort, and Cat's to Dex. Boar's sacrifices 3 Stamina for run speed, whereas Cat's sacrifices 6 Agility. I'd rather give up 3 Stamina than 6 Agility any day, and I imagine most druids feel the same way.

Finally, if you're going to use them in PvP, Stamina > Agility, and run speed is very useful (damn feral range bug!).

In summary: Boar's Speed is awesome.