Here's a funny question. If bears are supposed to be viable choices for tanking, where are our equivalents to the Frostguard and Wildguard sets that warriors get to help with Hydross?
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Of Frost Protection and Of Nature Protection. Start browsing that AH!
I started looking on wowhead for Frost protection items and all I could find was the nax epics. Makes me pretty sad. At least those craftables are pretty nice.
Also, you can dodge melee attacks which do elemental damage (as I believe hydros works?) so going in in a full green set might not be the most optimal choice.
Last edited by Exewut : 03/21/07 at 4:57 PM.
Reason: There is a direct corrolation between the number of spelling mistakes and my playtime, and sadly I play to much!
It saddens me that there is no level 70 non-plate itemisation with frost or nature resist as this can only mean one of two things; Either the dev's just "forgot" that there's more than 1 class capable of OFF tanking endgame raid encounters, or the dev's only ever intended there to be 1 class capable of doing ANY endgame raid tanking whatsoever. I'm nonplussed as to which theory is more plausible, but there's a hint somewhere... something to do with other endgame leather tanking itemisation...
I'm also in the process of gearing up with mixed resistance gear to get one shotted by Hydross' adds. Apart from the craftable neck's and rings, and the substandard cloak (Syrannis' Mystic Sheen) there's zero leather frost\nature resistance items available, apart from the okish frost res gear from Naxx (hf finding 20 ppl willing to help farm frozen runes) and a couple of random NR items from TAQ. Aside from this, as the previous poster mentioned there's the blue "of x resistance" items that drop from rare spawns, but the chances of getting what you need are next to nothing.
So I've been reduced to scouring the AH for random green leather\cloth resistance items, trying to get as high level stuff as possible. Once I get armor kits on everything i'll be hovering around +200 Frost and +200 Nature resistance ub, with pitiful AC although this hardly matters I guess, and roughly 14k HP unbuffed. My main concerns are lack of agility I (suppose I can counter this a bit with GoA, BoK and consumables) and lack of AP and + Hit. Will laceracte spam alone be enough to keep aggro off dps or even healers I wonder.
Would be good to hear from any druids who've offtanked this encounter and can share some tips
I just found this post on the official forums, the maths seem to be correct.
While the choice between resilience and defence isn't really there at the moment (the good items with resilience on it waste so much item budget to +healing/int/spirit that they still end up being inferior for tanking), it might be nice to remember this if you stumble on a great +resilience ring.
I posted this previously as a remark on Qina's "Math: defense vs. resilience" thread, but I don't think anyone had a chance to comment on it before it fell off the face of the forums. You can find her thread here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...75339916&sid=1
Summary: Using Qina's approach, I will demonstrate that resilience is actually a better method for reaching -2.6% chance to be crit than defense, at least for bears.
I will assume 3 things:
i) you have 3/3 SotF,
ii) you are level 70
iii) your defense skill is maxed.
At level 70 a boss (level 73) will have 5.6% chance to crit you.
With 3/3 SotF the chance to crit you becomes 2.6%.
To reduce the chance to be crit by 2.6% using defense skill, we need:
2.6 * 25 = 65 defense skill
This amount of defense rating also provides 2.6% chance to dodge and 2.6% chance to be missed resulting in an additional 5.2% avoidance.
To reduce the chance to be crit by 2.6% using resilience, we need:
2.6 * 39.4 = 103 resilience rating
Now this is where the two examples diverge. Since we require less resilience than defense in this scenario we can afford to stock up on other stats. While the *base* item cost of 10 armor = 1.5 sta = 1 defense rating = 1 resilience rating = 1 any stat, according to WoWWiki ( http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Item_Values ) the item cost is calculated as
itemcost = (stat1^1.5 + stat2^1.5 + ...)^(1/1.5)
which roughly translated means it costs more to focus on one stat than it does to split your focus on two stats, which is why "of Intellect" and "of Defense" don't sell very well.
So for our example:
The item cost of 154 defense is:
(154 defense^1.5)^1/1.5 = 154 item points
Achieving the same item cost, but with 103 resilience:
((103 resil)^1.5 + x^1.5)^1/1.5 = 154 item points
x = (154^1.5 - 103^1.5)^1/1.5
x = 90.83
This means that we can get ~90 extra agility = 90/14 = 6.43% dodge and 180 armor + crit if we go the resilience route. This is already more than the combined 5.2% avoidance offered by defense.
Alternatively, we can get 90 * 1.5 = 135 more stamina (169 in bear), or 90 * 10 = 900 armor (900 * 5.5 with thick hide = 4950 armor in bear).
This springs back to the way Blizzard itemizes us. There's a very small handful of items with Resilience that are actually worth considering for tanking in the long run. The PvP gear is chocked full of useless stats that degrade it's PvE value for "main-anything" And once you move into Heroics/Raiding the blue resilience items can't compare with the epic defense ones. There's a couple exceptions, but not enough to make resilience more than a supplementary stat.
There's also No +armor on gems at all or +resilience gems outside of a couple unique epics.
There's a very small handful of items with Resilience that are actually worth considering for tanking in the long run. The PvP gear is chocked full of useless stats that degrade it's PvE value for "main-anything"
I'm not sure I agree. What do you think about resist fights? My current thought is to get the gladiator chest and shoulders, along with Earthwarden I can be crit immune in 3 slots.
As far as the long term viability of PvP gear, it's anybody's guess when the gladiator set will be updated, and weather that is before or after the average guild is getting a lot of T5.
The T4 armor bonus doesn't get the multiplier, does it? That would change things a whole bunch.
Sorry, I may have missed it in an earlier post, but how do you have wastewalker gloves twice on the chart? Is that enchanted and unenchanted, or is that a typo?
Sorry, I may have missed it in an earlier post, but how do you have wastewalker gloves twice on the chart? Is that enchanted and unenchanted, or is that a typo?
The T4 armor bonus doesn't get the multiplier, does it? That would change things a whole bunch.
Should not, this would add another 7k of ac (or at minimum 5% more dr till common 6.5% dr, that would be insane for a so easy to obtain set bonus and you won't willing to drop this set until t7 or t8 with 1401 armor more on it :/). 1.4k finally ac looks more like something regular for me, since no other set bonus provide such a huge jump and adding another ~ 1.0-1.5% dr should be more than enough as a bonus.
Armor / (Armor/100+(58.8+(Level-60)*4.675)) ->
16k
16000/(160+105,55)=60.25% DR
18k
63.04% DR
20k
65.46% DR
22k
67,58% DR
24k
69,45% DR
26k
71,13% DR
28k
72,62% DR
30k
73,97% DR
31665
75% DR
Well if it added another 7k I might actually consider using 4 pieces for tanking, but then again probably not considering the vast proportion of item budget points are wasted on hybrid stats. As it stands an extra 1.4k armor is of pretty much no benefit whatsoever.
As mentioned above, it's at least about 1.5% dr. Not that bad at all. And blizzard can't make 16 sets of t4 per class, one for pve tank, one for pvp tank/dps, one for pve dps cat, one for pve dps oomkin, one for ht and one for hot healers..
Ofc, adding spirit and int may annoy a pure pve tank, but it's important for shift out, regrowth, rejuv, shift back - else you may lack the mana to even shift back.. Wouldn't that annoy you as a casual pvp player? You may drop the point that they could take the Gladiator stuff, but those lack 1-2 stats in total while adding resilience.
You allready get 2 different set boni, depends on your form. Thats quite nice, and 6 slots of gems + metagem where you can put in what you prefer. Thank the designer they only made 2 pc lack of gemslots and not all 5 ending you up with
Breastplate of Malorne
Binds when picked up
Chest Leather
383 Armor
+34 Strength
+33 Agility
+24 Stamina
+19 Intellect
+16 Spirit
Gemslots: 0
Well if it added another 7k I might actually consider using 4 pieces for tanking, but then again probably not considering the vast proportion of item budget points are wasted on hybrid stats. As it stands an extra 1.4k armor is of pretty much no benefit whatsoever.
The earthwarden adds a bonus of 2.2kish extra armour - would you be willing to use Terestians over Earthwarden in most situations, as you deem 1.5k more armour "no benefit whatsoever"? (I have actually been considering this, as it's 2.5% dodge and another 42 stamina, but decided against it because the armour is another 2-3% straight damage reduction which imo is better than the dodge, and I have plenty of stamina from other items). I'm still amazed you would consider not using 4 pieces if it gave 7k armour - that's the equivalent of 6-7% pure reduction. Even if you lost 5% from other pieces because they're worse individually, that's a net gain still, and it's static rather than avoidance based, as well as gaining stats for doing dps/healing if you're required to be an OT in fights (maulgar, hydross, karathress, morogrim, magtheridon to name a few I OT in).
Improved Devotion aura is also 1350 extra armour and I can certainly tell the difference with and without it.
I'm currently using the Helm/Shoulders and planning on getting both chest (+3x12stam gems) and legs in the future as although the legs aren't amazing, the 4 set is rather good imo and I'd never consider the gloves. I got the glove item one kara run because the priest had better and the warrior already had them and ended up getting the healing gloves because the feral ones are worthless imo. I'm not planning on picking up the legs until after I get the chest regardless, as I believe it's a slight downgrade individually from the heavy clefthoof so I wouldn't use them.
Dont get me wrong, I like the t4 set. It's great for hybrid\dps which suits me fine because I like that playstyle (although it's of questionable value in a raid setup). It's just that for pure tanking there are better options available for every slot. Even factoring in an extra 7k AC from 4 pieces I'm not sure it would be the best option considering the wasted stat points, although looking at those figures perhaps it would be by a small margin. Anycase, seeing as it's only an extra 1.5k armor added I really have to question whether I'd ever use t4 for tanking or even offtanking any boss that deals physical damage, so personally I wouldnt want to socket\enchant it with tanking stats but rather hybrid stats as that's clearly what the set is geared towards.
I'm not saying I dont value armour as a tanking stat, quite the contrary in fact. It's just I dont see the point in a set bonus that adds armour to a set that surely isnt intended for tanking. Tbqh though we're only just starting SC and Magth so perhaps there's some raid content out there that will prove otherwise.
Tanking is all about gear compromises. You're simply not going to find an item with Armor, Str, Agi, Sta, AP, Crit, Dodge, Defense, Resilience and a socket, in fact you're lucky if you find an item with 5 of those things.
Malorne (except gloves) does a very good job of providing Armor, Str, Agi, Sta, and sockets, the set bonus to me is just icing. More rage means more threat. And even taking the highest armor items (non t5) for those 4 slots, if it is just 1.4k, you still end up with 190 more armor in Bearform using Malorne (not counting armor from agility) Also quite a bit more Agility than those top 4 armor items and provides 7 sockets that can be used for more sta, agility, or defense.
And honestly, how can you say the extra (if it really is) 7.7k armor wouldn't be worth it, you do tank don't you? +7.7K armor from that set bonus on already high armor items means I wouldn't even have to think about other old and worthless items like MoT or ShotM and could finally just switch to Alchemist Stone/Compass (or Pocketwatch, or Figurine, or Shard ... ) Umberhowl's? Gone. Manimals? Gone I'd even start thinking about replacing Earthwarden with something that had Stamina (Gladiators for instance, since it has Resilience to make up for losing Defense) The Possibilities ...
Squiffy - Because gear is relative and they probably use different "base" stats for the druid. I remember Emmerald mentioning that he doesn't us SotF and some other talents in his calculations, I'm not even sure Emmerald has updated with the changes to Armor/Sta in patch 2.0.5, I believe Skytor uses SotF, Kings, as well as a different (higher) base for his model. And damn you Skytor for making me sign up for google spreadsheets.
Last edited by Boevis : 03/24/07 at 5:15 AM.
Reason: for Squiffy
I have to admit I am a bit surprised to see everyone mentioning earthwarden here as there tanking staff, I thought feral staff of lashing was considered to be better? At least I've been using it non stop since I got it, and never missed earthwarden.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29359
Feral Staff of Lashing
Binds when picked up
Unique
Two-Hand Staff
133 - 257 Damage Speed 3.00
(65.2 damage per second)
300 Armor
+35 Strength
+29 Agility
+33 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 525 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear, and Moonkin forms only.
I have to admit I am a bit surprised to see everyone mentioning earthwarden here as there tanking staff, I thought feral staff of lashing was considered to be better? At least I've been using it non stop since I got it, and never missed earthwarden.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29359
Feral Staff of Lashing
Binds when picked up
Unique
Two-Hand Staff
133 - 257 Damage Speed 3.00
(65.2 damage per second)
300 Armor
+35 Strength
+29 Agility
+33 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 525 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear, and Moonkin forms only.
Waiting for Wildfury Greatstaff personally - can't get heroic botanica going and the drop chance is so low that even if I could I probably wouldn't see it. Done heroic bot twice just to see what it's like / someone else wanted someone, since then everyone wants to do the trial of the naaru heroics, or easy ones (coilfang/mechanaar) for badges. Otherwise, yes, I'd gladly use it over Earthwarden.
Defense and Feral Weapon Skill makes Earthwarden superior in my eyes. People always discount the massive attack penalties you take for being in front of the Boss. Working off 'standard' values a boss is going to have the following combat table (in some order I don't understand)
Glancing: 60.01-1000
Parry: 54.41-60.00
Dodge: 48.81-54.40
Block: 43.21-48.80
Miss: 34.61-43.20
Hit/Crit: 0-34.60
That's on White of course, specials just remove the Glancing section and add 40 to Hit/Crit. That's basically a full 1% hit chance, and keep in mind that now Lacerate has up front damage, it's subject to and usually completely negated by blocks.
I'm disappointed at Earthwarden overall though, lacking stamina and agility on a tanking weapon is just plain stupid, much like those necklaces from A'dal with resilience and no stamina. But really, the armor makes the difference. 1.1k armor and the 24 defense really just make Earthwarden that little bit superior to Lashing for those of us that don't use Clefthoof for defense (I like generating threat you know ;p )
Been trying to get lashing, for the relatively simple reason that picking up the gladiators dragonhide helmet pushed me so far into crit immunity that the defence doesnt matter anymore - but must admit that I am somewhat dubious about giving up any feral weaponskill..
Malorne (except gloves) does a very good job of providing Armor, Str, Agi, Sta, and sockets, the set bonus to me is just icing. More rage means more threat. And even taking the highest armor items (non t5) for those 4 slots, if it is just 1.4k, you still end up with 190 more armor in Bearform using Malorne (not counting armor from agility) Also quite a bit more Agility than those top 4 armor items and provides 7 sockets that can be used for more sta, agility, or defense.
Whilst right on Armor, Str, Agi and Sockets... The stamina is rather low on Malorne. this more than anything else is what disappoints me about the set. Pieces with 36str, 24 stam do not feel "tanking" to me.. Reverse the figures (although truly it should then be more like 24str, 50ish stam) and it would be spot on. Letting you make up for the defense in other slots/with gems. But to be truly good tank gear, yes it must have str, but not as the primary stat above all else. Give me Agi/Stam/AC primary, then +hit and Str as the minor stats.
meh nerf work ... it so gets in the way of Theorycraft!
See the 1st page for a breakdown of how the values are calculated - basically i took the calculation method from Tank Points
The one on google was adjusted for the Armor and STA changes
In addition if you look at some of the later posts you will see that there is some exponential effects of scaling
The more HP you have the longer and extra 1% dodge lets you live or the more dodge you have the longer an extra 1000hp lasts.
The value of an item is very much related to whats in the other 13 slots.
No individual "item benchmark" can ever reflect that fact - which is why the sheet allows you to model & combine 2 gear sets and see the mitigation changes between them (at least my excel does - on google its so painfully slow i can hardly use it)
With my current gear ... check the armoury ... there are items that are worth more on the individual item scale but actually have a net negative effect on my "time to live" when combined with my actual gear.
Its a starting point - and the original exercise was intended to highlight the "easy to get" / overpowered items.
I will try and revisit it a bit over the next couple of weeks as (maybe) my workload will be a bit lighter
So my questions are which items do I want to wear and when? And what gems, if I end up wearing the vest, would be the most appropriate - +stam, +agi, or +def? I can swap out the Thoriumweave and get two dawnstones and a talasite for the vest to compensate - with the empty vest and Thoriumweave, I have +138 rating, 12499hp, 21952 armor unbuffed - but I also don't want to gimp my HP and/or armor rating chasing the almighty uncrittable spec.
03/21/07, 3:16 PM
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