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 Skytor 01/30/07 9:00 AM

Bear tank item comparisons

Bear Mitigation

All that follows assumes:
Level 70 vs Level 73 mob
Base Bear form hp of 12000
Tauren Druid
3/3 Thick Hide
5/5 Heart of the Wild
3/3 Survival of the Fittest

Formulas used are as follows:

Total bear form AC contribution = (Item AC+(Item AC*0.1))*5.5+2*(Item Agility *1.03)

Total dodge = ((Item Agi*1.03)/14.73) + (Item Dodge Rating/18.9) + (Item Def rating/2.4)*0.04

Miss chance = (Item Def rating/2.4)*0.04

Crit reduction = (Item Def rating/2.4)*0.04 + (Item Resilience rating / 39.4)

Final Crit Multiplier = (200-(Item Resilience rating / 39.4)*2)/100

Mob Crit = MAX(0,0.05-(Crit reduction/100))

Extra HP = ((Item Stamina*1.2*1.03)*10.5)*1.25

Armour damage reduction = (Bear form AC / (Bear form AC - 22167.5 + 467.5 * 73))
- source wowwiki

Total damage reduction = =1-((Mob Crit * Final Crit Multiplier + (1 - Mob Crit - 0.05 - Dodge%/100 - Miss%/100)) * (1-Armor damage reduction))
- source: Tank Points calculation at http://ctprofiles.net/forums/thread.ct?id=1043

Extra damage soaked = ROUND(((Base HP + Extra HP)/(1-Total Damage Reduction))-Base HP,0)
- source: Tank Points calculation at http://ctprofiles.net/forums/thread.ct?id=1043

Scaling:

I noticed that the *relative* value of stamina for life extension declines as base HP increases. Initially this seemed a little counter-intuitive. It is however correct extra stamina ADDS a flat amount of hit points; all other factors effectively MULTIPLY your life total by the % of damage avoided.

Here are some values:

Conclusion extra AGI > STA on a 1:1 basis after around 19000HP on a strict "damage soaked" basis.

Using the above formula, here are some item comparisons:

Note the following gear is either "old world" items you may have left over, or easily obtainable "new world" items – from quests and 5-mans. Where sockets are available, the item is listed with no gems and with a combination of the following easily available gems to obtain the socket bonus.

Not many great new choices for helms here, guise of the devourer still seems the best available

Both Bogstrok & the Quest reward Valient defender are an upgrade over elementium threaded, which was amongst the best of the pre-TBC cloaks.

The easily obtained supple leather boots are a nice upgrade over the previous two epic favourites – I have not seen anything else that gets close for a bear yet

Violet signet is an upgrading reputation reward; the other two rings are both upgrades over previous offerings

Heavy Dark Iron – 1552
Signet of the Fallen Defender – 1833

Both can be upgraded with pre-70 instance drops

Gloves, Legs, Neck

Once possible upgrade to replace the awesome gloves of the hidden temple, may be worth using even better gems than the "standard" ones

A green quest item provides a very nice upgrade to the tricky legs slot

Necklace of the Juggernaut provides some incentive to collect those heroic tokens to druid tanks and the next best option is a quest reward.

Shoulders, Belts, Wrist, Trinkets

AB reward still worth using if you have it, otherwise annoy your rogues by grabbing the assassination shoulders (gems & no gems line got shifted around)

Manimal's Cinch, a green quest reward provides nice belt slot upgrade to previous choices

The excellent Umberhowls collar fills a longstanding hole in bear gear, giving us a decent choice in bracers (Quest reward)

It's somewhat disappointing to see no prospect of a trinket upgrade – I'm guessing armour on a trinket was considered a mistake not to be repeated.

Finally – Chests

The hellfire quest reward beats out ghoul-skin and the other quest rewards by a small margin

Enchants a selection of likely enchants listed for comparison

 Plea 01/30/07 9:26 AM

Your findings about stamina is a mathematical evidence to what we noticed empirically in the first days of raiding. Good to see it on proper calculation.

Another thing you might want to count in is, that avoidance stacks exponentially; while armor effect is constant, and stamina increase becomes obsolete after some value. Every next point of dodge is more valuable than the one before. If you make another chart for given avoidance values instead of hp, that should show this better.

That, in fact, is where the infamous 'warriors teh best tank we hav parry' claims point. We tend to believe that mitigation is king, hp comes from here and there.

 tbone47 01/30/07 9:34 AM

 Skytor 01/30/07 9:54 AM

No idea wowhead just times out for me, post the stats and where its from please

The above list is mostly easy to obtain gear (quests, non-heroic 5 mans, easy rep gains)

(e) Scores an awesome 2990 - bet thats easy to get hold of :)

 Crowbite 01/30/07 10:13 AM

Thoriumweave Cloak
318 Armor
+35 sta

 Skytor 01/30/07 10:18 AM

You are indeed correct that each point of dodge rating increases the value of the next point

(Using dodge rating as it does not generate the additional mitigation from AC that agility does)

The base numbers are:

 Thorn 01/30/07 10:42 AM

I'm relieved to note that its also possible to hit the 156 def rating target (assuming survival of the fittest) for an uncrittable bear from that gear list as well, and without resorting to core armor kits and the like.

 Maratai 01/30/07 10:43 AM

Not a math whiz: how do your numbers compare with Emmerald's?

+1 Agi = 4.27
+1 Sta = 3.13
+1 Defense Rating = 2.96
+1 Dodge Rating = 3.13
+1 Resilience Rating = 1.73
+1 Armor = 0.52
+1 Health = 0.26

 Kazanir 01/30/07 10:52 AM

Using resilience is even better! ^_^

 Skytor 01/30/07 11:04 AM

The three craftable heavy clefthoof parts - not included in the above version of the list have high sta, high def, no agility and disapointing armour values

I suspect a piece or 2 socketed for max def will make it very easy to push over the 156 def requirement

Resilience is an option for druids who enjoy, as that is where most of the kit with that stat comes from

 Dakous 01/30/07 12:31 PM

Is it my imagination, or is there a severe lack of items with perk armor? Don't get me wrong - the ones that exist, and their ease of acquisition, phenominal. But...is this being phased out, or am I/are we cursed to wear Manimal's Cinch, Supple Leather Boots, and Verdant Gloves forever? Looking over E's list, there are practically no perk armor items, and dodge/agility is heavily favored. Searches on Wowhead aren't turning up many upgrades (especially excluding PVP gear).

 Quasar 01/30/07 12:32 PM

Toss [Verdant Gloves] with the other gloves.

Stamina vs. Armor, or even Defense/Resilience and Dodge issues, I've accumulated a lot of good high-armor pieces you have on your list already but have difficulty using them over similar sta-loaded pieces. Obviously Stamina is more useful against caster mobs, but even on non-casters, I like having the high hit point count.

Examples:

[Cloak of the Valiant Defender] vs. [Devilshark Cape]
Some of the stats on Devilshark are obviously useless, but the dodge rating is nice (approximately 1% dodge at 70 compared to around 500 armor).

[Ash Tempered Legguards] vs. [Leggings of Unending Assault] (or X-52)
Armor or a boatload of Stamina and Agility.

[Manimal's Cinch] vs. [Burning Blade Devotee's Cinch]
Again, armor or stamina, crit, and hit (useful stats for holding aggro).

[Jerkin of the Untamed Spirit] vs. [Chestguard of No Remorse]
Armor versus stamina, crit, AP (holding aggro).

What are your thoughts on these?

 Crowbite 01/30/07 1:07 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Quasar Couple questions/points/comments. Toss [Verdant Gloves] with the other gloves. Stamina vs. Armor, or even Defense/Resilience and Dodge issues, I've accumulated a lot of good high-armor pieces you have on your list already but have difficulty using them over similar sta-loaded pieces. Obviously Stamina is more useful against caster mobs, but even on non-casters, I like having the high hit point count. Examples: [Cloak of the Valiant Defender] vs. [Devilshark Cape] Some of the stats on Devilshark are obviously useless, but the dodge rating is nice (approximately 1% dodge at 70 compared to around 500 armor). [Ash Tempered Legguards] vs. [Leggings of Unending Assault] (or X-52) Armor or a boatload of Stamina and Agility. [Manimal's Cinch] vs. [Burning Blade Devotee's Cinch] Again, armor or stamina, crit, and hit (useful stats for holding aggro). [Jerkin of the Untamed Spirit] vs. [Chestguard of No Remorse] Armor versus stamina, crit, AP (holding aggro). What are your thoughts on these?
Each feral druid is going to have to find their own sweet spot. I've been finding in the instances, I'm mixing and matching pieces from my dps and my tank set to get decent mitigation and good threat at the time. If you find you are having problems with aggro, it may be time to switch out your high armor slots for a couple high dps slots to bring in more threat. Still, in my tanking set, I have yet to lose aggro to a boss that does any kind of decent damage.

 Quasar 01/30/07 1:11 PM

I rarely lose aggro (only on rough situations like a group of mobs that routinely drop aggro - gouge, knockbacks, fears), but I'm always concerned that just that little extra oomph will help in the rough times. I'm just really on the fence with mitigation via sta versus mitigation via armor versus other mitigation versus pure damage/aggro capability.

 tbone47 01/30/07 1:40 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skytor No idea wowhead just times out for me, post the stats and where its from please The above list is mostly easy to obtain gear (quests, non-heroic 5 mans, easy rep gains) (e) Scores an awesome 2990 - bet thats easy to get hold of :)
Thoriumweave Cloak
318 Armor
+35 sta

Drops from Mechano-Lord Capacitus in Mechanar.

probably the best cloak for a druid.

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