Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 10

Pater · 07/02/07, 7:02 PM

Using my mod. 2200/25%c/22%h/0haste. The usual disclaimers apply: this is just my best guess of the way combat mechanics work. Also note that I've ignored any stat differences between the weapons.

Black Planar Edge + Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver

------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2200, H=22.0%, C=25.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=172-320/2.7s, OH=177-330/2.6s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=159688 | M=(3.5%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(25.0%), H=(40.0%)
OH Wh: Swings=166198 | M=(3.4%), D=(6.4%), G=(25.1%), C=(25.2%), H=(39.9%)
MH WF: Swings= 63526 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(25.2%), H=(68.3%)
OH WF: Swings= 63338 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(24.8%), H=(68.5%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(24.9%), H=(68.5%)
OH SS: Swings= 33612 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(24.9%), H=(68.4%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 278713507 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(34.1%) | G=(17%)[345-454], C=(46%)[918-1212], H=(37%)[459-606]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.6%) | G=(17%)[169-225], C=(46%)[451-600], H=(37%)[225- 300]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.4%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[1483-1894], H=(58%)[742-947]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.7%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[822-1030], H=(58%)[411-515]
MH SS: Dmg=(08.4%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[920-1212], H=(58%)[459-606]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.8%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[451-600], H=(58%)[225-300]

Flurried white swings:  MH=73.5%, OH=73.9%

DPS = 774.2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A nonexistent weapon with the same DPS as Black Planar Edge, but 2.60 speed (ratioed down high end and low end damage by 2.6/2.7) + Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver

------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2200, H=22.0%, C=25.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=166-308/2.6s, OH=177-330/2.6s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=170880 | M=(3.5%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(24.9%), H=(40.0%)
OH Wh: Swings=170880 | M=(3.4%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.2%), C=(25.1%), H=(39.8%)
MH WF: Swings= 66966 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(25.0%), H=(68.5%)
OH WF: Swings= 62082 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(24.9%), H=(68.6%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(24.7%), H=(68.6%)
OH SS: Swings= 33585 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(25.1%), H=(68.4%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 282312912 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(34.7%) | G=(17%)[332-437], C=(46%)[885-1166], H=(37%)[443-583]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.8%) | G=(17%)[169-225], C=(46%)[451-600], H=(37%)[225- 300]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.4%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[1429-1823], H=(58%)[715-912]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.3%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[821-1030], H=(58%)[411-515]
MH SS: Dmg=(07.9%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[887-1166], H=(58%)[442-583]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.8%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[451-600], H=(58%)[226-300]

Flurried white swings:  MH=83.0%, OH=83.0%

DPS = 784.2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My initial take is that there's about a 1% dps penalty for wielding 2.7+2.6 instead of a same-dps 2.6+2.6.

slant · 07/02/07, 7:19 PM

More great data. Can anyone confirm in real-world testing?

You've got to love how much ammunition this long thread continues to provide against the windfury cooldown mechanic. It's just plain broken on so many levels.

Xoya · 07/02/07, 7:21 PM

Could we get a calculation on 2.7/2.8 and 2.6/2.8?

Pater · 07/02/07, 7:26 PM

At this point, I'd prefer to answer questions on how to use my java sim so that people can run it for themselves, than to take run requests. There's a link in the OP and some instructions in the first lines of the file for folks who've never run java on their machine. It's not a finished product by any means, but I tried to make it easy to input and run your own data.

Nemaa · 07/02/07, 10:31 PM

If I have 4 piece t5 bonus shall I change this part of the code

	// Flurry
	if (flurryCount > 0)
		currentHaste = 0.30 + PLAYER_HASTE_GEAR;
	else
		currentHaste = PLAYER_HASTE_GEAR;

to this:

	// Flurry
	if (flurryCount > 0)
		currentHaste = 0.35 + PLAYER_HASTE_GEAR;
	else
		currentHaste = PLAYER_HASTE_GEAR;

Am I right?

Nemaa · 07/02/07, 11:17 PM

I get this error when I try to run your mod:
"Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: ESCS"
I have the latest JRE. Anything I'm missing?

Pater · 07/02/07, 11:51 PM

That looks like the correct haste fix.
The error you see is possibly due to not being in the correct directory, not having the right PATH setting, or not using the correct command lines.
Command lines should be:

> javac ESCS.java

> java ESCS

(You can replace the second step with "java ESCS > out.txt" if you wish to send it to a text file.)

Freyalis · 07/03/07, 1:29 AM

Frankly, I'm pretty annoyed at the small speed discrepancies as well.

Due to bad luck in Kara and heroics I am still left with my Planar Edge, 60 HWL Cleaver combo (2.7 / 2.9) which performs well enough for my liking.

What annoys me is that, after dropping far to much gold than I wanted to to get my Blacksmithing to where it is now, My shiny axe is going to be potentially useless compared to a 2.6 / 2.6 set up ~_~.

Its enough to make me wonder if I should just leave it, spend my badges on a Bloodlust Brooch + something else and grind out S2 arena wpns or wait for Decap, Fools bane etc etc to drop.

◊ Rob · 07/03/07, 2:19 AM

Unless you're in Hyjal/BT, this discussion is really moot. You should be working on a Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver/Pummeler anyway... there's no better OH in game. Assuming you're using a Fool's Bane or better (e.g. T2 BS, Decap) MH and a blue 71.7 DPS OH, the Arena weapon will be put to better use in your OH. Then, you get to decide if you want an Arena weapon MH, or if you're close enough to a T3 or Hyjal/BT MH. That type of decision is just an opinion, not something someone else can answer for you.

Chemoshvt · 07/03/07, 3:21 AM

Regarding +hit, I'm current at 238 with 228 Crit rating and 1352 attack power. Most if not all of my items are stuffed with +8 hit gems. My armory profile is on the left there, but should I -at this point- start filling up my gem slots with str gems? I was under the assumption I should be maintaining a balance between my crit rating and hit ratings...not sure if thats entirely accurate anymore. Our raid always has 3-5 paladins in it as well, so it's almost a gaurentee that I have Kings/Salv/Might on every raid.

I've heavily stacked haste with Dragonspine (not shown in profile due to whip), 2x Mongoose, Dragonstrike proc. The additional haste looks good, but in terms of maximizing my DPS should I change anything gem wise?

Here are a few WWS logs as well if that helps any:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=3pedu4w5uslzi
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bnxrixlmhkiha

Stigmata · 07/03/07, 4:00 AM

I'm not convinced having 2 same speed weapons would increase my DPS, given that almost 65% of my dmg now comes from white hits why would 5% more WF's increase my dmg vs the loss of my weapon haste proc.

10% haste from a weapon = 10% more white dmg? Or am i missing something here.

Snorkles numbers look right and i'm not gonna dispute that, but WF is not the be all and end all of shaman damage.

◊ Rob · 07/03/07, 5:16 AM

Originally Posted by Chemoshvt

Regarding +hit, I'm current at 238 with 228 Crit rating and 1352 attack power. Most if not all of my items are stuffed with +8 hit gems. My armory profile is on the left there, but should I -at this point- start filling up my gem slots with str gems? I was under the assumption I should be maintaining a balance between my crit rating and hit ratings...not sure if thats entirely accurate anymore.

Try reading the first post of the thread.

Pater · 07/03/07, 7:33 AM

Originally Posted by Stigmata

10% haste from a weapon = 10% more white dmg? Or am i missing something here.

Yeah, this should be right. Because it doesn't give much (if any) boost to overall WF dps, my sim runs last week said that the 10% haste should give you net ~6.6% DPS boost, as long as it doesn't drop your weapon speeds below 1.50.

Chemoshvt · 07/03/07, 7:59 AM

Originally Posted by Rob

Try reading the first post of the thread.

Done.. Dropped all my hit gems for Str and CR gems. At .612 HR to CR ratio now (as opposed to my 1.2 ratio before), but I still have that maulgar's warhelm to replace anyway.

Another thing that I'm not entirely sure of is the exact amount of haste before it starts giving an adverse affect to dps. Right now I have flurry up almost constantly, plus 2x mongoose, Dragonspine and Dragonstrike proc. It's an enormous amount of haste and it's definitely dropping my weapon speeds below 1.5 when it's all procing at the same time (which is quite often)

When everything is procing at once I'm running at about 51% off the trinket/weapon proc. That's not figuring in mongoose procs and flurry. Not sure if I should eventually drop my dragonspine trophy or the brooch when a Tsunamii Talisman drops. Is haste god forever or does it eventually have a diminishing return?

Stigmata · 07/03/07, 8:18 AM

I dont think there is much way to test when it really has an adverse affect, dropping below 1.5 speed means less WF's but at the same time it means more white damage.

It is difficult to measure at what point it is bad, really bad and then better.

Presumably hitting with both hands at 1.0 speed would be a net gain over both hands at 1.5speed? Given this is probably possible with all haste modifiers active.

Nemaa · 07/03/07, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by Pater

The error you see is possibly due to not being in the correct directory, not having the right PATH setting, or not using the correct command lines.
Command lines should be:

> javac ESCS.java

> java ESCS

(You can replace the second step with "java ESCS > out.txt" if you wish to send it to a text file.)

I don't have an english operating system so I can't tell you the exact error message what I get after giving "javac ESCS.java" command. It's someting about "javac" command not being recognized as a valid command.

Kletha · 07/03/07, 9:33 AM

Before in the thread (I think it's page 4 or 5) there is a diagram with the different hastes and what happens at different %.

It's good up til (I think it was) 40%, then it acctually decreases your dps til you get up to 55% haste where it comes back again and the dps is good again.

For more/better info on it, check the post I referenced.

Edit; page 4, post #78.
(also corrected wording)

◊ Malan · 07/03/07, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

I don't have an english operating system so I can't tell you the exact error message what I get after giving "javac ESCS.java" command. It's someting about "javac" command not being recognized as a valid command.

You need 2 things to do this. The JDK (Java Development Kit) in order to compile the class file. When you input the command "javac ESCS.java" you're telling the JDK to compile the code into a binary file. Then you need the JRE (Java Runtime Environment) in order to execute the java code, which is done by invoking the JRE through "java ESCS"

Originally Posted by Kletha

Before in the thread (I think it's page 4 or 5) there is a diagram with the different hastes and what happens at different %.

The direct link to that post is already in my OP on the first page.

• Disquette · 07/03/07, 9:44 AM

actual tested haste data in the bottom of the flurry thread now:

[Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?

weapon combos used:

2.6/2.6, 2.6/2.0, 2.6/1.4, 2.0/2.0, 2.0/1.4, and 1.4/1.4

see for yourself if same speed weapons make a big difference. It's post #69. Look at the line called "% extra attacks" for the relevant data for this discussion.

TradewindKlaatubarada · 07/03/07, 10:01 AM

I can't get Java Simulator to work. I get the following error:

"Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: escs/java"

Can anyone post results with 2.7/2.7 vs 2.7/2.8? thanks.

◊ Malan · 07/03/07, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada

I can't get Java Simulator to work. I get the following error:

"Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: escs/java"

You must compile the java class first. Type "javac ESCS.java" and THEN type "java ESCS"
You can't skip the first step.

TradewindKlaatubarada · 07/03/07, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

You must compile the java class first. Type "javac ESCS.java" and THEN type "java ESCS"
You can't skip the first step.

I couldn't compile either. I found out that "javac" application is not included in JRE (the one that file says you need to d/l) but it is on JDK (with dev tools).

martin0641 · 07/03/07, 10:47 AM

I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?

f1reburn · 07/03/07, 10:52 AM

I also had some problems with getting the simulator to compile, it appeared to have something to do with the pathing, so that it can't find the "javac" command.

Manually adding the PATH to the system environment variables as described here solved it for me.

TradewindKlaatubarada · 07/03/07, 10:55 AM

At last I made it work. See the silly results:

93 DPS 2.7 weapon does the same dps as 100 DPS 2.8 weapon when compared to a 2.7 mainhand.

(Using Talon as an example of OH, altough it is MH).

So, 0,1 seconds of difference between MH and OH makes an increase of 7 DPS in the weapon completely worthless.