[top]5772 /120 (cooldown)

Tristan · 09/13/07, 3:27 PM

@Malan does this wiki entry exist somewhere yet?

Malan · 09/13/07, 3:31 PM

The Theorycraft Think Tank wiki exists, its just hidden from users at the moment. Boethius will open it up later this month hopefully. Its not going to be a traditional wiki, the whole project got started when I was complaining that this thread was a pain in the ass because the forums don't make the formatting of the article very user friendly. (Things like the table of contents, links to sub sections, etc) The idea was that we should have wiki articles that are owned by authors but have discussion threads attached to them, because the "open edit" method at wowwiki.com has led to rampant stupidity on the wiki entries with blatantly incorrect information.

I've been rewriting the enhance post here as a better article for it, its probably 75% done. Like I said though, one thing I want to do is expose the facts/theory of where we got all this data from, so I really need people to help cough up some calculations, links, graphics, etc to help out.

◊ Rob · 09/13/07, 3:32 PM

Actually, it was somebody else who ran numbers on the trinkets, I don't remember who.

Math illustrating how these numbers would have been derived (unit analysis FTW):
* [Dragonspine Trophy] 202.5 AEP (2.1 haste value) assuming a 1.5 ppm, ~150 AEP (2.2 Haste value)

40 AEP + 325 Haste*1.48 AEP/Haste*10 Seconds*1.5 PPM/60 secs/min = 40 + 120.25 = 160.25 AEP (2.2 Value)

The added 20-second cooldown probably lowered the PPM of this item, so we would need to check out what a reasonable PPM figure is now. Additionally, the AEP of haste is very-poorly defined. This is probably the weakest number we have. Really, we want someone with DST to go on PTR and run Procwatch with WF imbue on both weapons, autoattacking+SS every 10s for 30m or so against a servant of razelikh. This could probably be accomplished with a keyboard macro (note that this may be against Blizzard TOS, like AFKing in AV with a keypresser).

* [Tsunami Talisman] 141 AEP assuming a 0.9 ppm

10 Hit * 1.4 AEP/hit + 38 Crit * 2.0 AEP/crit + 340 AP*10 sec*0.9 PPM/60 sec/min = 14 + 76 + 51 = 141 AEP

Shawndreya · 09/13/07, 3:45 PM

Additionally, I did some math on other trinkets such as Abacus of Violent Odds (Sorry haven't learn how to insert item links.)

Due to the two minute cooldown, it can be assumed that this trinket can have a maximum of .5ppm.

2.1 Value:
.5ppm * 10/60 = .0833 * (2.22 * 260) = 48.08076 + 64 AP = ~112 AEP

2.2 Value:
.5ppm * 10/60 = .0833 * (1.48 * 260) = 32.05384 + 64 AP = ~96 AEP

Malan · 09/13/07, 3:51 PM

That's not how you calculate On Use effects like that.

Example: Bloodlust Brooch
72AP + [278 (On Use AP) * 20 (duration)]/120 (cooldown) = 118.3

Abacus after the 2.2 haste value change would be
64 + [(260 * 1.4)*10]/120 = 94.3

Stuff with no hidden cooldown and not a proc is about the only thing I know how to calculate.

Morelis · 09/13/07, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Rob

Really, we want someone with DST to go on PTR and run Procwatch with WF imbue on both weapons, autoattacking+SS every 10s for 30m or so against a servant of razelikh. This could probably be accomplished with a keyboard macro (note that this may be against Blizzard TOS, like AFKing in AV with a keypresser).

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

◊ Rob · 09/13/07, 3:57 PM

Well, Malan, the way Shawndreya chose to show it is confusing, but that is the correct result.
(Your & my way: Abacus: 64 + 260*1.48*10/120 = 64 + 32 = 96 AEP)

Morelis: Thanks. That is perfect.
To spell out the math, based on your link:
DST = 40 + .2279 * 1.48 * 325 = 40 + 109.62 = ~150 AEP

And not to beat a dead horse, but we could use a more robust definition of haste's AEP.

Shawndreya · 09/13/07, 3:58 PM

Even using your method I get the same results.

64AP + [(2.22 *260) * 10 (duration)]

[top]5772 /120 (cooldown)

112.1 AEP

Shawndreya · 09/13/07, 4:01 PM

Sorry, didn't mean to make it confusing. I'm still new to this so I converted use effect into a PPM formula since that was the only formula I had to work with.

I'll make a mental note to clarify what each data entry represents in the future to help you understand what I'm saying.

Malan · 09/13/07, 4:04 PM

Oh mine must have been off from using 1.4 instead of 1.48 as the haste AEP.

Shawndreya · 09/13/07, 4:17 PM

Took care of Kiss of the Spider:

28 + 14 + [(1.48 * 200) * 15]/120 = 79 AEP in 2.2

Shawndreya · 09/13/07, 4:27 PM

What do you still need data on? I have 1 ½ hours left till I get off work haha.

Khlysti · 09/13/07, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Requesting a math check here since I screw this stuff up so often.
[Madness of the Betrayer]
Wowhead comments state a 1.5 ppm on Servants, 2.0-2.5 ppm in a raid environment using instants.
From the Uptime thread, calculating the passive value of the proc, assuming a 2.0 ppm and using -Armor as a 0.25 AEP value, should be done as:
2ppm * 10/60 = 0.3333 uptime * 300ArmorPenetration = 100 * 0.25AEP = 25 AEP for the proc.
If that's correct, then the trinket has a net AEP of 135. Still slightly below the Tsunami Talisman.

Did I do that correctly?
(Disclaimer: I fail at math and have illustrated that many times before on this forum)

If you search the thread for madness you will see I did tests with it and posted weeks ago, the uptime is 40% not 33%.

Shawndreya · 09/13/07, 4:37 PM

I took care of Haste Potion AEP since I didn't see it in OP.

2.1
[(2.22 * 400) * 15]/120 = 111 AEP

2.2
[(1.48 * 400) * 15]/120 = 74 AEP

vorda · 09/13/07, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Shawndreya

Took care of Haste Potion AEP since I didn't see it in OP.

2.1
[(2.22 * 400) * 15]/120 = 111 AEP

2.2
[(1.48 * 400) * 15]/20 = 74 AEP

Nice one, defenitly worth adding in the OP/Wiki imo!

Nemaa · 09/13/07, 4:58 PM

Two of my guildmates have [Madness of the Betrayer]. Both are really excited and happy with the trinket. They say it's refreshing 1-5 seconds after it expires. I talked them about the measured (?) 40% uptime and they said it's way more. Can anyone find a reference about the 40% uptime?

Malan · 09/13/07, 5:24 PM

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Originally Posted by Khlysti

And for a slightly more sensible bit, been doing some testing on Madness of the Betrayer. Uptime for me is at 40% Giving it an average of 120 armour penetration.

Using the numbers from my post on armour penetration this (for me) will on average be worth (120x0.364) = 43.68aep, add in the 20 hit and 84 ap and we get 156aep, even with lower armour targets this wont get much above 160aep.

Thanks, not sure how we missed that one.

So a 0.40 Uptime yields a ppm of about 2.4. [10/60 * ppm = 0.40]

2.4ppm * 10/60 = 0.40 uptime * 300ArmorPenetration = 100 * 0.25AEP = 30 AEP for the proc. 143.6 Total AEP when stats included.

That makes the Madness ever so slightly better than the Tsunami.

Toots Hepcat · 09/13/07, 5:34 PM

Speaking of Wowwiki -- Malan, would you mind terribly if I slapped their ridiculous "Enhancement Equivalency" article with a clue stick and a link back to this thread?

It will certainly attract goons, but also help spread around this excellent resource.

Guns · 09/13/07, 5:41 PM

I was reading the previous post about the threat trinket from Lady Vashj and it got me thinking. I was in a lesser progressed guild for some time and often found myself threat capped, wishing I had that trinket, but for the past several months in my current guild, I have found that I have almost no issues with threat. I am wondering if my tank is just incredible at TPS or if it is possible that I am doing something wrong.

Since threat is such a small issue for me I really have stopped paying attention to the finer points of my threat meter... If I am remembering correctly I generated ~700 tps normally, and ~1000+ going "all out". That was a long time ago, and I have since obtained a 100 and 97 dps weapon (upgraded from Fool's Bane and the original Glad Mace) along with many significant other gear upgrades. I would imagine that my tps has gone up a bit since then as a result.

I just check in here and am reminded of the fact that we are considered a threat nightmare, but I can't recall very many situations in recent memory that I am truly threat capped. The last incident that I can think of is on Teron Gorefiend, I let the tank get about 20k threat and then began pushing the dps, and I was "riding" his threat for the rest of the fight. Most of the time, I let the tank get misdirected and get several swings in and don't have to worry about pulling threat.

Our mt uses the Brutilizer with a Battle Master enchant, which he raves about, saying it increases his tps significantly. He generates ~1100-1300 tps. I am wondering if this is an unusual situation. Is our tank great, am I falling short, is it both?

edit:
note: I am always BoSalved, but I never have to drop Tranquil Air.

◊ Rob · 09/13/07, 5:48 PM

I wouldn't link to here but carrying over a lot of the information might be valuable, and deleting any links to that awful "EEP". About the only thing it gets right is the ratio between STR and AP, and it's just incredibly outdated.

Edit: I just figured out how to mark it as an "outdated" article... I think I'll remove the EEP link from the main Shaman article.

Toots Hepcat · 09/13/07, 5:54 PM

Your new tank is very good.

In my guild, tank choice is pretty much the deciding factor over my ability to pull out all my tricks and thus my overall DPS. Really it all comes down to their gear and play style. We have epic tanks who put out 800 tps and i have to switch to knife and shield about once every minute or so. We have others that exceed 1000 by a wide margin and I can go all out after a slight lead.

In Kara on Tuesday we experimented with a paladin tank (our really good druid tank was having internet issues). I have never seen TPS like this guy put out. Going all-out on Attumen, I was in second place with threat, well higher than the off-tank, with less than HALF the threat of the paladin (Man I wish WWS listed threat; this guy was amazing). Out-DPS'd our mage first-timer as well.

He did so good, I asked him to stop giving us Salv and give us Kings instead. But of course a paladin tank (especially one with very little mitigation and stamina gear) is murder on your healers, requiring in our case almost four times as much healing as a comparable warrior.

I've been told by good tanks that Battle Master is a decent enchant, but that Crusader is much better. Getting an enh. shaman in the tank's group for Windfury totems is also a decent boost.

Malan · 09/13/07, 6:29 PM

I've implemented all the stuff discussed about trinkets here.

Beroll · 09/13/07, 8:03 PM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

Two of my guildmates have [Madness of the Betrayer]. Both are really excited and happy with the trinket. They say it's refreshing 1-5 seconds after it expires. I talked them about the measured (?) 40% uptime and they said it's way more. Can anyone find a reference about the 40% uptime?

Using it myself for three days of raiding now I have experienced a uptime of about 25-30%.

Tristan · 09/14/07, 8:03 AM

@Tornhoof, when you rip the armory page in WoWEquipOptimizer do you remove buffs manually (or add missing) etc that the player logged out with/without?

From what I can see on the armory page there is only two values being passed (based and effective):

<baseStats>
  <strength attack="528" base="103" block="13" effective="274"/>
  <agility armor="538" attack="-1" base="61" critHitPercent="12.43" effective="269"/>
</baseStats>

<melee>
  <power base="668" effective="1068" increasedDps="76.0"/>
</melee>

As I read it 103 is the strength base without additions from items/buffs and 528 is with items/buffs included. Otherwise wouldn't the program suggest very different when I logout with resp. without buffs?

Celetroll · 09/14/07, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I've implemented all the stuff discussed about trinkets here.

[Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] info remains still wrong.

It does not have 89% uptime. You can do successful SS but no buff is applied.

It does exactly what tooltip says - 50% chance on hit to proc. So two times 50% chance per stormstrike since both weapons get a new roll. That gives 75% proc chance. Add to this dodge/parry on stormstrike, and it goes even lower.